ECdesigns

[tapatrick]

14 minutes ago, hopkins said:

I made a strange discovery this afternoon. I put my portable AM radio, above the back of the DAC, set at 198 khz, and it "recieved" the music I was playing at the time! I powered off my amplifier, and confirmed it comes from the DAC.

Thats fascinating, never heard of this!

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

1 minute ago, tapatrick said:

Thats fascinating, never heard of this!

 

Yes, I was a little "freaked out" by this 😕

[tapatrick]

8 hours ago, matthias said:

So I am not going to buy the ECD combo until there is clarification that both work together without issues.

I hope this helps, I appreciate all impressions so far 🙂

No problems, we are only teasing. Mind you if you got the EC combo first you might save yourself a lot of money

 

[matthias]

16 minutes ago, tapatrick said:

Mind you if you got the EC combo first you might save yourself a lot of money

 

Can you explain?

Thanks

 

Matt

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

Concerning the Raspberrypi, John found out that using a flimsy usb-c cable creates issues (power supply is variable) especially when power consumption is high. I bought a sturdy USB-C to DC jack adapter that has a good fit. 

 

One other drawback is the absence of high quality cases. 

 

Vendors that offer "Audiophile" players based on a RaspberryPi probably improve on the power supply, but I am a little skeptical that placing a toroidal transformer in the same casing as the Pi, which is what some vendors end up doing, is a good idea. 

 

It is really fascinating to play around with the U192 and see how some small details can have such an impact. 

 

Now imagine that you have a regular interface/DAC that does not block frequencies and therefore does not  have the same level of source immunity as  the U192: the variability of results  when testing "Audiophile" source components (including network switches, etc..) is probably huge, and drawing any general conclusions from circumstantial evidence is a dangerous proposition. 

 

To illustrate, I was reading this afternoon on a French forum a local "authority" explaining that upnp has a sharper sound and Roon has a "rounder" sound, and he was wondering where the truth lay. This type of comment illustrates the difficulty of drawing any serious conclusions from tests done with a compromised digital system (even if it does cost thousands of euros). For all we know, this could simply be particular to a given system, at a given time, and of no general benefit. Add to that the fact that "followers" tend to convince themselves of something when opinion leaders speak about them, without even attempting to challenge them...   The U192 is going to bring back some "order" (sanity) to things ☺️

[Ben75]

9 hours ago, tapatrick said:

No I will probably keep both. The Antipodes is a dedicated music server and allows for continuous software upgrades from the company. I wouldn't be happy using my macbook pro as music source as it has other uses as well. The PSAudio Junior is a very versatile and lovely sounding DAC with many inputs - also allows for free software updates which can be significant changes in SQ. If the EC DAC had more than 1 input I would reconsider.

Hello Tapatrick,

 

What other input would you want on the Fractal DAC? 🙂

Just a question : can you give a try to the Macbook Pro with and without charging to the wall outlet? What were the differences of sound? Have you or would you get the opportunity to compare the Macbook Pro to a Macbook Air please?

What is your version of the Macbook Pro you use? What was its launch year?

 

Many thanks in advance for your answers.

 

2 hours ago, hopkins said:

 

I added also some aluminum plates under some of my equipmemt. Just ordered a couple of those door stoppers to try out. A friend of mine uses them and I was meaning to try them. 

 

I made a strange discovery this afternoon. I put my portable AM radio, above the back of the DAC, set at 198 khz, and it "recieved" the music I was playing at the time! I powered off my amplifier, and confirmed it comes from the DAC. Wrote to John Brown about it, to get his opinion (will see if he answers) Perhaps this is normal, I did not try with other DACs.

 

I managed to get really good sound out of my Raspberrypi 4, with wifi and a linear power supply, but more about this later - I need some time to confirm.

 

Getting noise at a minimum in that 20Mhz bandwidth is really not obvious, as there is no way of knowing what source will produce the best results. You simply cannot find any measurements for this, from manufactures (computers or other related source components). 

 

I looked up an article by Archimago that I remembered reading a while ago, in which there were measurements of USB "noise" out of various laptops: http://archimago.blogspot.com/2018/05/measurements-computer-usb-5v-power.html?m=1

 

Interestingly, a Macbook did not perform that well in those tests, but  they were measuring power line noise only. Still interesting to see the variability in measurements. 

 

The conclusion was that the noise is below audibility, but we know that this is not the way to look at this... 

 

 

Perhaps the Macbook Pro of this time was too noisy and that the Macbook Air of 2013 was excellent compared to it?

It seems strange that they come to those results..

 

58 minutes ago, hopkins said:

To illustrate, I was reading this afternoon on a French forum a local "authority" explaining that upnp has a sharper sound and Roon has a "rounder" sound, and he was wondering where the truth lay. This type of comment illustrates the difficulty of drawing any serious conclusions from tests done with a compromised digital system (even if it does cost thousands of euros). For all we know, this could simply be particular to a given system, at a given time, and of no general benefit. Add to that the fact that "followers" tend to convince themselves of something when opinion leaders speak about them, without even attempting to challenge them...   The U192 is going to bring back some "order" (sanity) to things ☺️

 

I can't be more agree with you...

John told me one time that different "audiophiles" cables had different sound signature but ... did they sound better from each other or from standard cables? We can't be so sure...

It seems that his cables are really great anyway!

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

6 hours ago, Ben75 said:

Perhaps the Macbook Pro of this time was too noisy and that the Macbook Air of 2013 was excellent compared to it?

It seems strange that they come to those results..

 

Don't worry about those tests, they probably cannot be correlated directly to performance in the context of the U192. They looked at one aspect of noise. I mentionned it because it is the only example I found where there was an attempt to do some measurements. 

[tapatrick]

9 hours ago, matthias said:

 

Can you explain?

Thanks

 

Matt

If you try the EC combo with whatever source you have already you may find you don't need to buy anything else

[matthias]

43 minutes ago, tapatrick said:

If you try the EC combo with whatever source you have already you may find you don't need to buy anything else

 

I think I explained my reasoning in post #748

 

Matt

 

 

 

[Norton]

58 minutes ago, tapatrick said:

If you try the EC combo with whatever source you have already you may find you don't need to buy anything else

There is also the issue of how long the current kit will be available for to consider.  ECD tend to stop selling one generation quite some time before the next products  come along. I didn’t know what they intend  in this case though.

[matthias]

22 minutes ago, Norton said:

There is also the issue of how long the current kit will be available for to consider.  ECD tend to stop selling one generation quite some time before the next products  come along. I didn’t know what they intend  in this case though.

 

The nice thing is that the upcoming products seem to be always superior.and sometimes cheaper as well.

 

Matt

 

 

 

[tapatrick]

12 hours ago, hopkins said:

....the difficulty of drawing any serious conclusions from tests done with a compromised digital system (even if it does cost thousands of euros). For all we know, this could simply be particular to a given system, at a given time, and of no general benefit....   The U192 is going to bring back some "order" (sanity) to things ☺️

I agree - audio systems are a very complex electrical circuits prone to micro fluctuations from one second to the next due to radiation, magnetics and interference. In tandem with this the whole business of reading about listening tests is problematic to say the least, but it's often the best we have in this hobby where it's hard to audition everything at home with the kind of niche products we are interested in. However the law is on our side and if we don't like something we can send it back.

 

I always take listening reports with a pinch of salt as bias and exaggeration are a big part of audiophilia. I found that even having a new visitor for a listening session affected how I heard! 

 

The U192& Fractal DAC seems to extract what is essential and reject what is unnecessary from the source stream. Then providing a great signal to the amplification and speaker part of the chain.

[tapatrick]

2 hours ago, matthias said:

I think I explained my reasoning in post #748

I understood thanks Matt - but I don't know what your plan is.  I was just making a friendly comment that whatever source you already have combined with the EC combo will very likely satisfy you. I have found this to be the case with all kinds of different sources as reported.

 

I have a Raspberry somewhere and will try it just for the record, even though I have no intention of using. I find them a lot of fun to play around with but not for serious listening, but will be interesting to see how it works with the EC combo.

[tapatrick]

12 hours ago, hopkins said:

Concerning the Raspberrypi, John found out that using a flimsy usb-c cable creates issues (power supply is variable) especially when power consumption is high. I bought a sturdy USB-C to DC jack adapter that has a good fit. 

Yes, I have found clean power (and thick enough cables) is essential..

 

12 hours ago, hopkins said:

One other drawback is the absence of high quality cases. 

For sure

 

[matthias]

1 minute ago, tapatrick said:

I understood thanks Matt - but I don't know what your plan is.  I was just making a friendly comment that whatever source you already have combined with the EC combo will very likely satisfy you. I have found this to be the case with all kinds of different sources as reported.

 

I have a Raspberry somewhere and will try it just for the record, even though I have no intention of using. I find them a lot of fun to play around with but not for serious listening, but will be interesting to see how it works with the EC combo.

 

I appreciate, thank you.

As I said I need a new CD player. The nice thing about this upcoming device is that it has USB output which can be connected to the ECDs when some compatibility issues are solved.

 

Matt

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

6 minutes ago, tapatrick said:

I have a Raspberry somewhere and will try it just for the record, even though I have no intention of using. I find them a lot of fun to play around with but not for serious listening, but will be interesting to see how it works with the EC combo.

 

If you have time to try, I would be curious to find out how it works in your system. 

[tapatrick]

12 hours ago, Ben75 said:

What other input would you want on the Fractal DAC? 🙂

Just a question : can you give a try to the Macbook Pro with and without charging to the wall outlet? What were the differences of sound? Have you or would you get the opportunity to compare the Macbook Pro to a Macbook Air please?

What is your version of the Macbook Pro you use? What was its launch year?

 

Many thanks in advance for your answers.

 

Perhaps the Macbook Pro of this time was too noisy and that the Macbook Air of 2013 was excellent compared to it?

It seems strange that they come to those results..

Hi Ben. The Fractal DAC has only one input - the ElectroTos, and this will not allow for much pulling and inserting as it is not robust. The PS Audio Junior DAC has - I²S, Coax, XLR Balanced, TOSLINK, USB, & Ethernet inputs. Connected to a preamp this allows me to run the EC Combo for seriously enjoyable music and switch to the Junior DAC for other inputs.

 

Regarding the different Macs, I could currently do tests comparing a 2017 iMAC, a 2015 Macbook pro, a 2020 Macbook pro, and 2012 Mac Air but I honestly don't think there is any point. However the Macbook Pro 2015 whether connected to AC or running on battery does not make a difference with the EC Combo. And I am clear that I would never run the Macbook pro (without the EC Combo) as a music source on it's own as I cannot stand the harshness, yet with the EC Combo I could live with it. So I doubt there will be much difference between the different Macs but I havn't tried them all in comparison.

[tapatrick]

16 hours ago, hopkins said:

I looked up an article by Archimago that I remembered reading a while ago, in which there were measurements of USB "noise" out of various laptops: http://archimago.blogspot.com/2018/05/measurements-computer-usb-5v-power.html?m=1

Both the USB 5V and the +/- data lines need to be free of noise and why I always inject the cleanest USB bus power 5V.

 

There are a lot of cleaners and isolators on the market, some that I have tried. Even with these in place it seems to matter what enters the DAC and what the DAC does. Definitely seems that EC designs have found a satisfactory way to deal with these through the ElectroTos interface.

[Norton]

10 hours ago, matthias said:

 

The nice thing is that the upcoming products seem to be always superior.and sometimes cheaper as well.

 

Matt

 

 

 

I don’t see any signs that this will be the case in the foreseeable future.  I imagine that the PowerDAC  will be in the order of several times the cost of the current combo.  Min €3-€4K would be my expectation.
 

I’m guessing you are awaiting the new Schiit  CD transport?  That’s a really nice idea, but how are you going to judge without also buying the ECD combo?  Maybe buy the Schiit and take to ECD to demo?

 

Maybe ECD will develop their own electro-tos cd transport? Plenty of CD expertise resident in the Netherlands. 

 

 

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

20 minutes ago, Norton said:

Maybe ECD will develop their own electro-tos cd transport? Plenty of CD expertise resident in the Netherlands. 

 

 

 

I asked John Brown about this, some time before the new products came out. He did not seem interested given the drawbacks inherent to CD playback (vibration, lens failures, jitter, from what I remember). 

 

Ripping CDs is a little time consuming, but once it is done, there is no reason to go back to CD playback IMO, at least not if you have the new ECD set. 

[matthias]

20 minutes ago, Norton said:

I’m guessing you are awaiting the new Schiit  CD transport?  That’s a really nice idea, but how are you going to judge without also buying the ECD combo?  Maybe buy the Schiit and take to ECD to demo?

 

Indeed,

first I can check it with my DAC which is also XMOS based. Then when I am sure that the Unison output works with XMOS USB I can advance and consider the ECD combo.

 

Matt

[matthias]

51 minutes ago, Norton said:

I imagine that the PowerDAC  will be in the order of several times the cost of the current combo.  Min €3-€4K would be my expectation.

 

Agree, if you want say 25W per channel it will be even more expensive, IMO.

But I do not think that ECD will replace their USB interface and the FractalDAC with the PowerDAC. The PowerDAC will be a second line of products, too expensive for many.

 

Matt

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

41 minutes ago, matthias said:

The PowerDAC will be a second line of products, too expensive for many. 

 

Everything in audio can be considered "too expensive for many" (and didn't you explain a few pages back that you were considering the Taiko?) , so I don't know what you mean by that. ECD certainly does not charge outrageous prices. Anyway, it is all speculation at this point. 

[matthias]

14 minutes ago, hopkins said:

 

Everything in audio can be considered "too expensive for many" (and didn't you explain a few pages back that you were considering the Taiko?) , so I don't know what you mean by that. ECD certainly does not charge outrageous prices. Anyway, it is all speculation at this point. 

 

IMO, the price/performance ratio of all ECD products is very good, for the PowerDAC surely as well. Some other manufacturers would certainly charge more. But when you look at the PowerDAC pictures from @bodiebill you know that this device does not come cheap. And it has 6W output only, more power will be more expensive.

 

Matt 

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

Where did you get the idea that they would even produce a more powerful version? All this is speculation at the moment...