ECdesigns

[matthias]

On ‎7‎/‎2‎/‎2020 at 11:33 PM, hopkins said:

 

I have heard back from ECD. They have done further improvements to the USB interface (U192ETL) to bring it up to a level where it "becomes hard to differentiate" from  the UPL96ETL  (which itself has been improved also).

 

If that is the case there will very probably be no further improvements to be obtained by optimizing the USB source as the U192ETL will be effectively "immunized" from upstream noise -  solving issues of USB audio... I'm not going to quote them on the details of the way this is done, better leave this to them. It is quite a breakthrough IMO. 

 

I understand the second batch of products will include all these changes and they will contact existing customers individually to manage returns/upgrades. 

 

I am looking forward to  listening tests with these upgraded units. 

 

So what about a DAC with USB input?

Thanks

 

Matt

[matthias]

4 minutes ago, hopkins said:

Sorry, not sure I understand your question. Can you elaborate ?

 

I am not familiar with this design and reading of their HP does not help either.

So my question:

Do they offer a DAC with USB input?

Thanks

 

Matt

[matthias]

On ‎7‎/‎3‎/‎2020 at 7:07 PM, hopkins said:

Imagine getting a very clean sound, with zero interference, from a simple PC (with foobar, Roon, Qobuz, whatever...). No need for audiophile USB cables, linear power supplies, reclockers, ethernet regenerators, or fancy servers. 

This is going to be fun 🤣

 

So FLAC from Qobuz is no problem for playback with the ECdesigns devices?

Thanks

 

Matt

[matthias]

30 minutes ago, Norton said:

FLAC is fine with the DAC96ETF and U192ETL pairing (I have used with Qobuz without any problems) .  It’s just the UPL96ETL usb stick transport that requires WAV.  Note DAC processes up to  24/96, while U192 goes to 24/192.  I’m not sure what would happen if you tried to play Qobuz 24/192 with the combo (I didn’t try).  Their previous MOS16 DAC processing was limited to 16 bit but was quite happy with a 24/96 stream (just dithered to 16 bit) for example.

 

Would be niice to know if it makes sense to go for Qobuz Studio up to 24/192 or if Qobuz HiFi is the better option.in this case.

Thanks

 

Matt

[matthias]

21 minutes ago, Norton said:

But local file replay with the UPL is better still.  Is HiFi just 16/44?

 

Local file replay is no option for me.

Yes, Qobuz HiFi is just 16/44.

 

Matt

[matthias]

Can someone shed some light on why the DAC is limited to 24/96?

Thanks

 

Matt

[matthias]

1 hour ago, hopkins said:

Vis à vis recordings, and how they sound through the UPL, and hopefully soon through the USB interface  - the other threads on the forum got me to thinking about this, but I rather post it here. When you don't have that extra "transparency", you can't know whether the recording itself has that extra "resolution" that makes individual instruments sound "sharper" and more "realistic". That's one aspect of the recording that I was not really capturing in my previous setup, and that was missing, I believe, in some higher-end systems I listened to as well (not all...). It is very subtle, but important. So when you start using the UPL/Fractal, you realize that some recordings you thought were really good are in fact limited in that aspect when compared to other recordings, perhaps  not perfect either (on some other aspects of sound recording) but that do have that added resolution. Not sure I am making sense !

 

I guess you could say that the UPL/Fractal lifts a veil, but in some cases, you realize there is a further veil hidden underneath in the recording - at least now you know  Could be also that further improvements can be obtained on other components of one's system. It can be long road...

 

I think I understand your point.

 

Another topic I would like to know about these devices:

You talk about resolution and transparency. As you I listen to a lot of Jazz. 

I am wondering what do these devices in the PRaT department?

And are they able to produce slam and the kick of a live concert?

Thanks

 

Matt

[matthias]

@hopkins

 

I directed two questions to ECD in the thread at diyaudio. Hopefully I get the answers in due time.

 

Matt

[matthias]

6 minutes ago, Norton said:

The one thing I can’t  quite decide on though is whether or not the DAC ultimately lacks some of the necessary “slam” to really convey orchestral crescendos or if what I’m used to hearing is actually an artificial presentation from other D/S DACs.  Don’t know what’s in the “black box” but wondering if the DAC might benefit from a beefier psu?  

 

Reading this thread this is also my main concern related to ECD products. "Slam" is very important for me. If devices lack in this area then it is a no-go for me. To get an answer I would recommend to compare ECD vs the latest Schiit Yggdrasil with Unison USB input, using the same source, maybe a MBP with Audirvana and streaming from Qobuz.

 

Matt

[matthias]

8 minutes ago, Huubster said:

 

No worries there Matt, that's what I did, though it was a Gen 5 usb in my Yggdrasil.. A complete no-brainer, the Fractal DAC brings all the detail, staging and power like the Yggdrasil, but far less digital artifacts and harshness and a more coherent, more real soundstage .. There was no way back.

 

And besides, when you have a really resolving sound, Spotify is much better then Qobuz, believe it or not. Qobuz sounds small and stressed in comparison, Spotify brings far more spacial and accoustic information. I have to add, this was only after I changed my interlinks and speaker cables to the really high end stuff.

 

Nice to know, the single caveat is maybe that Unison is surely better than USB 5.

I like Spotify as well, very musical. What do you use as IC and speaker cables?

Thanks

 

Matt

[matthias]

1 minute ago, hopkins said:

I think I need to take a cognitive test because I am having a hard time keeping track of what I have on different USB keys, but appart for that I'm a little surprised by concerns with lack of dynamics, as my experience is really the opposite. I do agree that there is some time involved in getting accustomed to hearing things slightly differently, but to me it is definitely closer to the recording (good or bad).

 

My point is that I have no interests in playback from USB keys. Up to the last revision from begin of July where there is no info about so far the USB key playback was superior to the the playback from the USB to ElektoTOS interface. 

I have no local files and do only streaming from MBP so far.

 

Matt

[matthias]

1 minute ago, Huubster said:

Unison is supposed to bring USB to the level of Yggdrasil's best output, AES, so I don't think there is a caveat

 

According to MM from Schiit Unison is superior to AES.

 

Matt

[matthias]

23 hours ago, hopkins said:

Got a message from ECD, which started with the following words: "It has finally happened" and to which I simply replied "hallelujah"

 

They managed to perfect the U192 a little further to completely block the incoming source noise and Xmos noise above the bandwidth needed for the digital audio signal (20 MHz) and this has, according to them, led to the two (U192 and UPL96) being indistinguishable. He confirmed this also with measurements. So this means the U192 is basically "source insensitive". 

 

I understand à few more parts are on their way before they can build the new batches, and offer the upgrade.

 

I never know what information is OK or not to "advertise" here, but once again, I think this is significant (and is not revealing any of the secrets of their "heroic engineering", which they seem always eager to share anyway, contrary to many others). 

 

Looking forward to confirming this with my own ears. 

 

 

This is great, BUT is this really the version of U192 which @bodiebill received or an even newer one?

 

Matt

[matthias]

10 minutes ago, hopkins said:

@bodiebill thanks for your answers. Seems you can test the U192 with various sources, and confirm (or not) its "source independance" - I assume that aspect should not vary based on the  DAC being used? As long as the various sources are bit perfect, the claim is that the results should be pretty much identical. 

 

With all due respect this is a very bold claim.

I am absolutely sure that the ECD devices with a Taiko Extreme as source do sound better than with a laptop.

 

Matt

[matthias]

1 minute ago, hopkins said:

 

We'll probably never know. ECD is too "low end" for Taiko Extreme owners 😃

 

But if they claim source independence they have to verify this under "extreme" circumstances. The Netherlands are not so large, so a drive to Hengelo is appropriate.  🙂 Otherwise they should be reluctant to claim this. 

 

Matt

[matthias]

8 minutes ago, hopkins said:

That's our job, I think, to compare and experiment in various settings and equipment. What I understand they did is:

- investigate the causes for source dependancy, formulate hypotheses, experiment and test them

- to test them I think they checked that noise was actually blocked above that 20Mhz audio signal bandwidth using sweep generators. And they obviously did listening tests against the UPL. 

If a simple PC provides the same SQ as the UPL, I'll be thoroughly satified. Don't plan on purchasing a Taiko Extreme to test things any further than that. 

Lets wait and see what their customers (us) report back. It is great being able to exchange here on this thread 👍

 

I appreciate what they are doing, but SQ is much more than absence of noise. My experience so far is that an interface which is able the improve the quality of music playback is also able to show differences between sources.

 

Matt

[matthias]

10 minutes ago, hopkins said:

Well then, the U192 may not be for you.

 

I welcome all efforts especially with USB interfaces. But source matters, music is the source par excellence.

 

Matt

[matthias]

8 minutes ago, hopkins said:

Do you have a Taiko Extreme ?

 

No or not yet, but I like the Source First principle: 

To maximise the quality of music reproduction, the order of importance is (from most to least): The performance of the artist, the recording, the record/CD/file, the source component that replays the record/CD/file, the DAC, the preamplifier, the power amplifier and the loudspeaker (least important).

 

Matt

[matthias]

50 minutes ago, bodiebill said:

A PC/Windows foobar2000 => usb => U192ETL => ElectroTos => Terminator
B PC/Linux wtfplay => usb => Terminator

 

Interesting that with B>>A the better software of the source outperforms the better hardware of the USB Interface.

 

Matt

[matthias]

16 minutes ago, Norton said:

Properly bewildered now!  So both the U192 and the UPL have had  significant hardware updates  since I bought mine on first release only a month ago and on top of this they are already working on new/replacement product?  

 

These guys seem to be very innovative.

So I fear at the very moment you buy something from ECD it is already outdated.

Maybe they should offer their devices for leasing not buying.

You have a fixed rate per month and get always the latest model.

 

I am curious about the Fractal PowerDAC 🙂

 

Matt

[matthias]

2 minutes ago, M_audio said:

PowerDac will be a new product along the FractalDAC, not a replacement. Usually PowerDACs are DACs with integrated amplifier, so maybe it's that what are they aiming to.

 

My understanding is that the Fractal PowerDAC is a digital amp with a DAC section just before the output.

 

Matt

[matthias]

34 minutes ago, hopkins said:

With the UPL/MOS DAC (previous generation) there was no way of knowing at the time that there would be further developments. The resale value of those previous models is now probably very low. So its a "sunk cost". 

 

This is always the case and happened to Schitt too as they had the USB5 interface. Later on they discovered that the Unison USB is much better.

But the pace how ECD are launching new products is extraordinary and this is not customer friendly at all. Maybe a solution would be that they have devices with modules, so these could be more easily swapped.

 

Matt

[matthias]

2 minutes ago, Norton said:

I get it that products move on, but in the case of this occurring literally  just a month or so after initial sales, it would be nice if there was clarity and priority in terms of updates for existing customers.

 

Maybe with buying a device the customer gets the guarantee for free upgrades within a year or two.

 

Matt

[matthias]

3 minutes ago, hopkins said:

Putting aside the PowerDAC, which I addressed, it is not uncommon for suppliers to offer upgrades. Look at Taiko, which you follow... 

 

Taiko has a customer service bar none.

AFAIK, there has been no hardware upgrades at all since launching of the Extreme.

They made several Roon optimisations, all of them were updated via TeamViewer remotely and without charge from Hengelo in Holland.

So what is your point?

 

Matt

[matthias]

1 hour ago, hopkins said:

I am curious to see if ANY existing DAC is going to achieve the same sound quality

 

i am curious as well 🙂

 

Can you please ask ECD if it is possible to listen to their products somewhere at the Dutch Audio Event in September?

 

Thank you

 

Matt