ECdesigns

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2 minutes ago, hopkins said:

 

There are two different units:

- UPL96ETL, works only with USB sticks

- U192ETL, input from computer USB output. 

Both can either connect to ECDesigns' own DAC, or to any other DAC with toslink input. 

Thanks @hopkins! ... finally I understand the 2 USB offerings. The U192ETL Plus the EC DAC does look tempting.

 

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4 hours ago, hopkins said:

 

I have only had the chance to listen to the "PC connected version" (the U192ETL) in a very basic setup, and maybe it will improve with a slightly more optimized PC as a source. Don't know yet.   ....and I don't believe it will reach the quality of the UPL96ETL (USB key device) anyway. But I will try in someone else's system.  I think they released the U192ETL so you can also have the convenience of streaming, in addition to the "uncompromised" quality of USB key playback. 

 

Just want to clarify if this is a comment on the U192ETL connected to the Fractal DAC? Doesn't sound like you are impressed with it. That is the combination I would be interested in..

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17 hours ago, Waldo said:

Hi I heard both UPL96ETL and U192ETL at EC-Designs.  The U192ETL is a remarkable source, offering connectivity with streamers etc. and it has galvanic-iso output, so probably a good update.
However, UPL96ETL performance is fundamentally different in technology. It's a dedicated digital memory player. That changes parameters.
The FRACTAL dac is amazing in itself and sure will turn any musicfile into magic.

Thanks @Waldo Your report is helpful. I already have a modified SD card player which has a magic sound quality, so I'm reluctant to add another files on disks/sticks approach. I'm more interested at this point in finding a way to add this magic to streaming.

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3 hours ago, Norton said:

I have the U192ETL too but haven’t tried it yet

Looking forward to your thoughts on the U192, I'm aware that it depends on what is feeding it.

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8 minutes ago, Norton said:

I put the U192 into my system for the first time today, fed by a Bryston BDP1 with both local files (same USB stick as with UPL) and Qobuz.  Unfortunately, location means I’m having to use a 3m printer USB cable so caveats on the following.

 

Initial impression is that the DAC96 doesn’t sound quite as good with it as with the UPL, just that little less clean, sharp and dynamic, but perhaps not unexpectedly the basic characteristics of the DAC as I described previously still shine through.  To my ears this is a DAC that loves 24/96 and thus it’s great to have the run of Qobuz’s hires catalogue via a suitable source+ U192ETL; but I think it would be a mistake to buy this DAC without the UPL as well, to demonstrate what it can do at the apex of its performance. 
 

I will post again after further listening and maybe a cable change.

Thanks for the update @Norton!

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2 hours ago, Norton said:

this level of audio inconvenience usually comes with a much higher price tag...

 😂  😂  

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24 minutes ago, hopkins said:

- the upcoming batch of U192ETL should offer essentially the same quality as the UPL96.According to ECD, there will always remain a small difference between the two, but the U192ETL will offer very satisfying quality. With the current units, the gap is more significant. I only use the UPL96ETL and am really eager to getting an upgraded U192ETL to finally have all my music available without the hassle of USB keys...

Once I heard about this interesting new development, narrowing the gap between the 2 USB transports I ordered the updated U192ETL and the Fractal DAC at the weekend. I'll be able to give my opinion against my current setup sometime soon. According to John the improvement to the U192 further reduces the interference from the source and everything connected to it. Looking forward to testing this out.

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9 minutes ago, bodiebill said:

SDTrans384 => I2S => HDMI/LVDS cable => Terminator

I have been running a similar modified SD card player which is highly rated on here:

https://www.tirnahifi.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=4541&start=160#p87293

SDCard Player > I2S  > HDMI/LVDS > PS Audio Junior DAC. I found far superior to any other inputs I have tried, with big reduction in the 'digital' sound so I am looking forward (and have high hopes) to see whether this development from ECD can improve on this...

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12 minutes ago, hopkins said:

 

Do you have an idea as to when the new units will be available ? Knowing it is "in the works" it becomes increasingly frustrating to have to deal with USB keys... Patience is not my virtue

John said soon ie within a week or so - on the site it says 3-4 weeks so fingers crossed ... and yes likewise I was not keen on getting into another card/sticks kind of set up so this development is very interesting.. Thanks for bringing it to our attention.

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1 hour ago, bodiebill said:

 

Yes, read that also. Though much cheaper (and needing some DIY skills), it seems to be in the same league as the SDTrans384.

 

(In the meantime I am using a HXMelody HX500, which is already very good with SD card and I2S. See below.)

 

Thanks, yes I saw your thread. It was fun to mod/DIY and power with Ian Canadas Ultracap supply. If the EC products come close or even better with streaming this is the promised land...

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21 hours ago, hopkins said:

according to them, led to the two (U192 and UPL96) being indistinguishable

Super, That is great news!

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Just received my new U192 and DAC today in the post and have it plugged in to warm up streaming from my Antipodes DXe through EtherRegen.

 

As I'm working I've not had a chance to play around with set up yet. Too early to give full assessment but first impressions are a lovely natural and relaxing sound quality with tremendous detail and impact. Already it's clear this mini combo equals or betters my SD card reference AND with streaming. This is what I have been looking for.. More later and comparisons with PS Audio Junior DAC etc..

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3 minutes ago, hopkins said:

The top of the units have a plastic film protection sheet you can take off, to reveal the glossy cover. No effect on the sound 😁

I know...  thanks

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Just having short listening session this evening between other tasks.

 

Have to say this is a mesmerising sound quality! Not the only aspect of the sound but the acid test for me is with troublesome cymbals and sibilance on some favourite tracks - the ECD combo passed with flying colours which shows the removal of a layer that makes me relax deeply. To be honest I just want to listen but have to tear myself away...

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4 hours ago, hopkins said:

...and some pretty novel amplification solutions. As he said "more about this later". 

Interesting news, thanks for posting as I was starting to wonder about amplification. Although everything sounds perfect as it now stands and I stayed up too late last night lost in the music ... 

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6 hours ago, hopkins said:

 

I'm assuming you are enjoying the Fractal/U192 combo?  🙂

🙂 Certainly am and very happy with the U192/Fractal DAC combination, which has elevated my streaming SQ significantly. It's the ease and naturalness that impresses me most. I've decided that I prefer this over my PS Audio Junior DAC even though it is a lovely DAC with a rich set of features.

 

In the past I have had my best improvements by focussing on clean power and low noise regulators, especially with USB, so today I added a 5v USB injection to the USB cable just as it enters the U192 (from a Paul Hynes SR4). This enhanced the SQ with a slightly more liquid sound, and more lifelike quality to voices, slightly deeper bass and additional softer details. I tried powering the Fractal DAC with clean 5V but it seems to need 5.5v/0.5-1amp input possibly feeding a 5v regulator inside. The power supply included seems to do the job well.

 

I also tried adding an IsoRegen to the chain but wouldn't recognise it. So it seems playing with source and input does make slight differences. I still have to try a macbook laptop feeding the U192 but to be honest I'm losing interest in experimenting, maybe at the weekend when have more time.

 

 

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I tried streaming through a macbook pro laptop to test further if the U192/Fractal DAC is really source independent. Well ( in my system) there seems to be a noticeable difference between the laptop and my Antipodes music server. Laptop = hints of harshness that I hate with a flattering of the sound. Antipodes = holographic, full of ease, subtle details and no real contest.

 

I also tried powering the DAC with a clean 5v from a Paul Hynes SR4 and not a lot of difference between this and supplied power supply. I'm keeping the 5V USB injection on the U192 though.

 

John explained his new Power DAC project in an email today. This is an exciting development - he states it will completely eliminate the analogue signal path, will be virtually free of any distortion that will be able to drive 90db sensitive speakers and upwards. Due early 2021.

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11 hours ago, hopkins said:

...realistic music reproduction

I get what you have been posting about recording quality now. I listen to a lot of live recordings and with the U192/Fractal DAC some project a convincing realistic ambience and others less so. At the extremes it is as if they are either a whole sound or are hollowed out. This has probably got a lot to do with processing in the studio, but whatever it is recording quality is more exposed in a way I have not been so aware of before.

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2 hours ago, hopkins said:

 

Thanks for the feedback. I am now getting a little confused about the so called "source immunity". Could you report this back to John and ask him what he thinks ?

 

It will be interesting to compare the U192 with the UPL to at least see if they provide similar SQ...

I will do the test a couple of more times, with different tracks just to make sure and put things in perspective. These are relative distinctions I'm making between two very good sounding solutions and John did say there might be minor distinctions. I look forward to hearing your impressions too.

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49 minutes ago, Michael L said:

all about diminishing returns though isn't it.

I agree it mostly seems to be that way with audio, but I would politely challenge this assessment in reference to the latest EC products - they are a revelation even running from a basic source. I know its easy and common to rave about this kind of stuff when next week moving on to something else etc. My comments for what they are worth on a forum like this are relative comparisons within a context of being very happy and using the equipment I already have in addition to the U192 and Fractal DAC. In this context something being better or worse than something else is no disappointment. I hope I make this clear.

 

The only way you can tell for sure is in your own system and I highly recommend you try if you can - if you are looking for a cost effective, refreshing sound quality. I am not connected to EC Designs in any way except as a happy customer curious about John's journey of development which I discovered on this thread. 

 

Like many audiophiles I have been searching for just this result for many years with lots of experimenting, diy (fun) and a fair amount of cost but not astronomical like some folks with more resources. I eventually became disillusioned with the ever diminishing, residual but inescapable 'digital' sound of even the best I could afford. John describes this in his long posting. The EC combo (amazingly with streaming thrown in!) is a welcome breakthrough in my experience. With this EC combo I can relax into the music deeply and these days that is worth a lot! 

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4 minutes ago, Michael L said:

For serious listening I tend to go to my vinyl but I am excited that EC Designs are making these strides in improving digital audio. Good mc cartridges aren't cheap!

Yes, no one is an audiophile to save money !

I can appreciate the fast moving conveyor belt of EC products must be frustrating for current customers. Not sure what the solution is to this but maybe a time limited upgrade program is needed. I have been tempted to go back to vinyl over the past year but have put this on hold now...

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I did some more focussed listening tests today, with lots of back and forth so here are my thoughts, bearing in mind the nature of listening reports, biases, different systems, ears, moods etc etc. Also I kept getting drawn into the music. For what its worth this kind of focussed listening is not a natural way to enjoy music but to evaluate differences in equipment. I look forward to hearing others opinions on sources too when they have had the chance.

 

Listening tests:

A - Macbook on battery (various music players with local files and then Roon streaming ) > USB (EC UC250 USB cable interlink with DIY added 5v injection from a Paul Hynes SR4) > U192ETL > ElectroTos cable > Fractal DAC powered by 5V from a Paul Hynes SR4 > EC AI100 RCA cables > rest of system as in my signature

 

B - Macbook on battery Roon Core > Antipodes as Roon Endpoint > USB (EC UC250 USB cable interlink with DIY added 5v injection from a Paul Hynes SR4) > U192ETL > ElectroTos cable > Fractal DAC powered by 5V from a Paul Hynes SR4 > EC AI100 RCA cables > rest of system as in my signature

 

C - Antipodes Roon core > USB (EC UC250 USB cable interlink with DIY added 5v injection from a Paul Hynes SR4) > U192ETL > ElectroTos cable > Fractal DAC powered by 5V from a Paul Hynes SR4 > EC AI100 RCA cables > rest of system as in my signature

 

Conclusion:

A - Tried Vox music player with local files, Swinsian music player with local files and Roon streaming from Tidal: Conclusion - I could not tell a difference between these different players if there was one. Over all SQ - excellent.

 

B - same SQ as A, very slight improvement over A but only noticed with very focussed listening.

 

C - My favourite but only by a very small margin, a little more ease - Is this bias? possibly but does confirm my previous conclusion. I want to make clear this is not a big difference to me in the scheme of things and does support the claim that the EC products do an amazing job of blocking what comes before.

 

I hope this helps estimating the value of the latest EC products. What is very clear to me though if these latest products were available a couple years ago I would not have spent so much on sources, but thats the nature of audio. Now back to the music... 

 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Norton said:

but I’d be surprised if there really was no difference at all.

I'm looking forward to hearing about surprises....

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10 hours ago, seeteeyou said:

While I do have SDTrans384 myself, it's much better to ask @gstew and @pm325 about the I2C / I2S compatibility of ReceiverPi with Raspberry Pi / Allo USBridge Sig

@seeteeyou might be able to find a post but I seem to remember someone favourably comparing the modified Tirhahifi SD card player (which I have) to the SDTrans384. For input on comparisons the U192/Fractal DAC combo I now have has retired the modified SD Card player outputting I2S and it was my best source until recently. I spent a lot of time modifying it with new clocks, Ian Canadas Ultra cap/LifePo4 power etc.

 

Which reminds me I must try powering the DAC/U192 with the Ultracaps/LifePo4 supply at 5V to see how that sounds.

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21 hours ago, hopkins said:

Either way, I cannot decide. I am not saying there is no difference, its just really hard to be conclusive about it. Also, the longer you run those tests, the more difficult it gets ! 

 

....I may also be biased towards the UPL sounding better (after all, we are all skeptical about this), and hesitant at saying that there are no real differences -  worried that I may simply give a wrong conclusion.

....

 

Hope that helps! My explanations may not be very clear - I have had a long day ! ..

I appreciate your honest appraisal @hopkins and echoes my findings in that I found it difficult to determine differences between sources through the new U192/Fractal DAC - if any. Bias is a strong emotional pull especially when we are invested in gear that we have loved and spent time and money on!

 

I am convinced that sources are significantly less important with this combo supporting the makers statements. Not without some very minor differences but certainly very reduced in important and impact. I follow (and have followed) some of the other threads on AS where extraordinary cost and lengths are being taken to find the perfect source. Of course it's not possible to try all the options suggested and as much as I've enjoyed the chase for the better SQ, I got off the treadmill last year for one reason or another and am truly refreshed by what EC Designs have brought to the market at very reasonable prices comparative to what I have come to expect for improvements.

 

As mentioned previously I have been experimenting with clean power for both U192 (5v USB injection) and alternatives to the 5V supply that comes with the DAC the past week or so and am finding that this is having an impact, but once again only in a subtle way. More on this later if there is any interest.