ECdesigns

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

I took the MOS DAC and UPL to test it at another person's house, who has a very good vinyl system: Audio Note speakers, tube amplifier and preamp (small french manufacturer). The turntable is impressive but i do not remember the model. He also does streaming with Roon, a Metrum Ambre (linear power supplies and some tweaks) and Metrum Pavane DAC. In his system, streaming  is clearly inferior to vinyl. We did that comparison first and the difference was striking (more "digital" sounding and flat than vinyl). We then hooked up the UPL and it was a revelation.

 

Interestingly, the difference between the Metrum Ambre (playing the same tracks through Roon, whever from a file stored on a network folder or through Qobuz) was not always "striking" in the sense that the details are there in both cases, but the UPL is "effortless" whereas you always get a sense that streaming is struggling. The difference is really in the quieter background, the extensions, and the clarity of the different instruments. 

 

This was one of the most rewarding listening sessions i have attended. The host wrote me the next day how impressed he was and thinking about it had kept him up at night! 

 

The MOS DAC did not do as well. We hooked it up towards the end of the session and did not give it a chance to warm up and settle in, and found the music immediately took a more "digital" sound, which is clearly not what i experience in my system. I plan on running some more comparisons with the DAC but in better conditions.

 

Once again, hats off to ECDesigns for this extraordinary system. 

[Norton]

On 4/21/2019 at 1:12 PM, hopkins said:

The MOS DAC did not do as well.

 

@hopkins thanks for the report.

 

Just to clarify, the UPL was used into the Pavane in place of the Ambre?

When you listened to the MOS, was this fed by the Ambre or UPL?

 

What I/c were you using between MOS and source?  I have found the EC designs kit to be very cable dependent, with best results (as ECD suggest) with short  single strand plastic toslink.  When I tried the MOS with a well regarded brand of glass cable the sound definitely degraded to my ears.

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

Hi,

The UPL was used into the Pavan in place of the Ambre, then we switched to the MOS DAC (always using a short single strand plastic toslink). 

The DAC was just switched on, without any warmup.

 

We will be testing it again tomorrow in the same configuration, so I will give it time to warm up. I am also going to use the ECDesigns SVC preamp.

Will update this weekend.

[Norton]

1 hour ago, hopkins said:

Will update this weekend

 

Thanks.  The Pavane is what, 10x the price of the MOS?  So, if things prove close tomorrow .......

I presume that the UPL worked fine with optical in of Pavane?  There’s advice on ECD site now that UPL only works with DACs with certain SPDIF receivers.

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

Yes the UPL worked fine on the Pavane - great sound as always!

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

SO I had the opportunity to listen again to the ECDesigns MOS 16 DAC, with the UPL as a source, in the same setup (Audio Note AN speakers - wonderful, and tube preamps/amps). This time, I left the MOS DAC turned on for 30 minutes before playing it, and it was very satisfying ! We did not compare it at length with the Metrum Pavane DAC. The MOS DAC does bring out all the benefits of the UPL. Compared to the Pavane, I felt that it had perhaps a more "direct" sound, and the Pavane was more refined (or polite)... difficult to say, and I may be a little biased   

 

The UPL once again "shined". This time it was compared to the same source (Metrum Ambre), but with an Aqvox "audiophile" switch plugged in to the Ambre. The benefit of the switch was heard, but it did not raise the system to the level of the UPL. Streaming through the Ambre still provided a "flatter" sound, which seemed to "struggle" in comparison with the ease and detail of the UPL. 

 

Some have reported that the MOS DAC may not sound very dynamic with other sources than the UPL, and it seems to me this could be more a problem in the sources used than in the DAC itself, which I really enjoyed in this setup (I enjoy it in mine as well, but the Audio Note speakers are a step up from my Harbeth P3ESR Anniversay edition speakers, with superior dynamics). The DAC does not seem to add or substract anything, and that is the way I like it !

[Norton]

Thanks @hopkins I’ve been using my MOS, via UTOS, with a Bryston BDP1 as Roon endpoint and have been pleased with the sound, although UPL is still a marked step up in SQ.

 

My one frustration is the single input on MOS and thus plugging/unplugging of sources - UPL for ultimate  SQ,  BDP for convenience. As they are so cheap maybe answer is simply 2 x MOS as I have spare preamp inputs.

 

I’d like to see UPL/MOS as a one box integrated player,  with a USB input (maybe via onboard UTOS if  still necessary) for an  additional source.

 

How did the SVC get on in your friend’s system?

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

Agreed (or two toslink inputs). 

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

I did not see your last question. Unfortunately, we did not have a chance to test the SVC in his system. 

[seeteeyou]

Hi @hopkins, would you please kindly post some (detailed) impressions after comparing UPL v1 to UPL v2 later? Thanks.

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

Hi, 

 

ECDesigns will indeed be coming out with a new version of the UPL, which includes several changes:

 

- they are adding a new output which is an improved Toslink (and is compatible with the Toslink input on the DAC) but effectively eliminates jitter/reflections in the toslink cable

- they have found a way to use a clean 5v supply, eliminating the need for a battery

- they are incorporating a link to a PC that will allow reading the content of each USB key inserted in the UPL, storing the information of the folders, tracks, and album art, to browse the data with an app on a PC. 

 

I send them my UPL  to install the new output (which they call "ElectroTOS"). The other two upgrades are not yet available (i think). 

 

This new output is a big step up in SQ, and brings the MOS DAC to a whole  new level. Everything is better: more dynamic, better separation, depth, etc... I have had four other pair of years confirm exactly what i heard, and the difference can be heard from the first note - it is a 'no brainer'. 

 

I have only tried it with the MOS DAC, and am very curious to see if the improvement will be of the same magnitude with other DACs. Without any changes on the DAC side, the cleaner signal essentially improves the clocking in the DAC. 

 

I understand that they are also working on a new DAC, and i do not know when it will be available. This new DAC will include several improvements, and will have multiple inputs. 

 

You should contact them to inquire about upgrading the UPL, and i do not know if they intend on offering upgrades now or if you have to wait until the new version is completely finalized. They are very kind and will cerrainly reply to any enquiries. 

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

1 hour ago, hopkins said:

I have had four other pair of years confirm exactly what i heard, and the difference can be heard from the first note - it is a 'no brainer'. 

That should have been "four pair of ears"

[Norton]

On 9/9/2019 at 9:24 AM, hopkins said:

I send them my UPL  to install the new output (which they call "ElectroTOS")

 

Thanks for the heads up. This is a separate box, a form of DD converter as I understand it, as well as  a mod to the UPL.  Does it need its own power supply?

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

No it is just an additional output on the back of the UPL, and they provide the cable that fits in to the toslink input of the DAC. The cable on the UPL side is a small jack. The LED, i believe is lodged in the part that fits into the DAC's Toslink connector. No added box, no added power supply - it all comes out of the UPL and there is no change to the DAC (its clocks just work better with a better signal). 

 

I will post a picture tonight. 

 

Highly recommemded! You get all the benefits of perfect galvanic isolation without the downsides of added jitter/reflections from the toslink cable, and the difference is clearly audible. 

[Norton]

21 hours ago, hopkins said:

No it is just an additional output on the back of the UPL

 

Thanks, am following up with JB to get my UPL upgraded.

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

Great, you should not be disappointed. I did not post a picture, but it is really just a simple cable. 

If you go through with the upgrade (you are in Canada ? so it should take a few weeks ?) let us know your impressions after.

[seeteeyou]

It's been exactly two months since John and Gordon mentioned their D/A96TF with Fractal converters. Did anyone get a chance to ask them what to expect in 2020?

 

UPL24E certainly sounded like a winner to me, they're definitely working hard to develop apps for multiple operating systems

 

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/79452-building-ultimate-nos-dac-using-tda1541a-738.html#post5950855

[vortecjr]

These products appear to have i2s input and output? Does anyone know the pin assignment?

[Norton]

3 hours ago, seeteeyou said:

Did anyone get a chance to ask them what to expect in 2020?

 

I asked a couple of times about getting my UPL modded for the new interface (mentioned above) but didn’t get a reply.

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

Here is what they have to say about their new product line:

 

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/79452-building-ultimate-nos-dac-using-tda1541a-post5950855.html

 

These will be using their new ElectroTos connection, which is an improved optical connection. No i2s connections, as far as I know. 

 

Projects are close to completion from what I understand (as of a few weeks ago). 

 

Just saw the link was already posted above. 

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

@mordante

Could the OP or the administrator change the title of the thread to ECdesigns (add the s) ?

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

Here is a link to an additional post on DIY Audio by John Brown of ECDesigns explaining the various novel approaches they have developped and will include in their new products:

 

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/79452-building-ultimate-nos-dac-using-tda1541a-744.html#post6031506

 

Very interesting developments that I plan on testing as soon as the new products are available.

[Norton]

15 hours ago, hopkins said:

Here is a link to an additional post on DIY Audio by John Brown of ECDesigns explaining the various novel approaches they have developped and will include in their new products:

 

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/79452-building-ultimate-nos-dac-using-tda1541a-744.html#post6031506

 

Very interesting developments that I plan on testing as soon as the new products are available.

Thanks.

 

As I read this the developments are:

 

a new DAC (I’m not clear what the “fractal” is all about, presumably this will still be some form of ladder DAC?) with an optical interface that will only work with ElectroTos, not regular Toslink.

 

the ElectroTos being an optical converter with the implication being that this  will be offered in different versions to suit the source interface at one end (?) and will be user configurable as normal Toslink or EC designs’ optical at the other end 

 

a new UPL with onboard ElectroTos.

 

Is this your take on it? I hope the new stuff will still be available  at “pocket money” prices.
 

I put the UPL/MOS combo back in my system yesterday and it sounded absolutely brilliant, very special in the mid range and upper bass.  And a bargain too, normally you have to spend a lot more for this level of inconvenience in hifi.  Having said that, the MOS16 alone fed by UTOS from my Bryston BDP with Roon/Qobuz sounded a lot better than any £300 DAC has a right to.

[Superdad]

28 minutes ago, Norton said:

...normally you have to spend a lot more for this level of inconvenience in hifi.

 

Did you mean that? LOL. 

[nattflax]

19 minutes ago, Superdad said:

 

Did you mean that? LOL. 

Actually, putting a needle on the record, plop a silver disc in to a player is much more easy than fiddeling around with digital files and labelling different directories onto an USB-pendrive. Don't get me wrong I love my MOS/UPL combination. The quality of sound is sublime. However, I can not deny with a straight face that it is not  an inconvenient operation.

 

Edit: Mind you that the files has to be .wav without the .info file otherwise the player goes bananas.  Using Linux it is somewhat difficult to find players that supports a Microsoft proprietary format.  Weird innit?