riderforever Posted February 9, 2010 Share Posted February 9, 2010 ...four years ago we had really a great time here in Turin, I wish you the same now in Vancouver! Back to the topic, from the Lynx AES16 specs I read: Eight stereo inputs and eight stereo outputs 24-bit AES/EBU format, transformer coupled Also the RME HDSP9632 provides this "feature": AES/EBU: 1 x XLR, transformer-balanced, galvanically isolated, according to AES3-1992 output voltage 3.5 Vpp So how is it possible to hear such improvement only because of a further isolation? Isn't the soundcard isolation enough? Maybe a RMAA analysis with and without the Antelope DA in place could help in understanding what's going on... Link to comment
waltzingbear Posted February 9, 2010 Share Posted February 9, 2010 just because the output is transformer coupled doesn't mean your connections are. You need to make sure the ground is lifted on the cable at the destination end to have full galvanic isolation. There are indeed 8 transformers on the Lynx AES-16 card. Inputs are electrically balanced as far as I can tell. Link to comment
Part-Time Audiophile Posted February 9, 2010 Share Posted February 9, 2010 Earflappin -- how'd that Grimm work out? Scot Hull Part-Time Audiophile Link to comment
earflappin Posted February 9, 2010 Share Posted February 9, 2010 Hi Scot, I tried the CC1 as both a word clock for my Lynx AES16 and as an AES reclocker. My take was that as a reclocker it did not audibly outperform the DA and that as a word clock there was not an audible improvement over just using the Lynx clock. Given the CC1's much higher cost I sent it back. In speaking with Berkeley Audio, they confirmed their expectation that the biggest benefit of any device in the AES signal chain would be one of noise isolation versus dejittering/reclocking. Bottom line, my conclusion was the same - i.e. there are sound quality improvements to be had with the BADAC when using an AES/EBU input by providing noise isolation. So....I would expect Berkeley's soon to be released USB2/AES conversion box to provide SQ improvements over a vanilla Lynx AES16 interface. However, how it will compare to a Lynx AES16 > DA or other interface with optimal noise isolation remains to be heard of course. Interesting about the previous comment about lifting the AES ground pin....I'm going to try that on my set-up to test its effect. Mac Mini / Pure Music > Firewire & USB > Metric Halo LIO-8 > Hypex NCORE 400 > Geddes Abbey Speakers > Rythmik Servo & Geddes Band Pass Subs // DH Labs Cables, HRS MXR Isolation Rack, PurePower 2000, Elgar 6006B Link to comment
Happy Posted February 9, 2010 Author Share Posted February 9, 2010 Certainly hectic here in Vancouver - we have 16,000 military/police on the ground, warships in the harbour and SAMs and special forces in the local mountains! There are many conversations in CA surrounding the pollution of the audio signal by the computer source. I've read articles suggesting SSD's, more RAM, changing PSU's, undervoltage the processor, better cables for the AES connector and it goes on. I maintain that it is not difficult to DMA 44khz signals from a hard drive to serial interface - 4 Ghz signals into a serial interface is more fun). There is so much written that I beleive people do hear a difference - even through so called 'isolated' sound cards - I would really need to see the circuit to understand how much isolation their output stages provide. However the engineering that goes into the systems part of connecting stuff is much more interesting - and more 'confusing' to non-engineers (and a boon for marketing types e.g. audiophile cables!). My DA/BADA does not share the same power as the computer stuff - I have been very careful to isolate the two. The BADA/DA is fed from an equitech balanced power isolation transformer; the computer from a monster power thing. The only connection between the 'analog' section and the computer is the balanced AES cable - if I could completely electrically isolate them e.g. optical - I would. I believe it is for this reason I often cannot observe computer-oriented changes in the sound output. I drive 107db horn speakers into a custom room - these speakers are extremely sensitive to noise of any kind. Previously I used a solid state amp and could hear the capacitors charging. Nowadays I use a 25W tube amp and the system is silent. Computers store/move and process bits very efficiently but they are unbelievably noisy - I once spent 6 months trying to get Class B approvals (EMC) for a supercomputer that my team designed - it was almost impossible. For Audiophiles best practice is to separate the computer from the DAC - I believe for example that one of the most difficult design problems in a DAC (I taught DAC design as a postgraduate course for a while - it encompasses lots of engineering issues) is the separation of the analog/digital sections - the BADA for example, I believe has separate psus for both sections in their design. Aside - I am looking forwards to the DAC designers improving their 'pre-amp' sections. If one takes a look at the engineering of a world class preamp - lots of noise/environmental/linearity/phase design there. /Paul Serious Listening:[br]Intel Mac Pro 6G (SSD) -> Amarra ->Alpha USB ->Alpha I Dac -> Ayre KX-R -> Tom Evans Linear Class A -> Avantgarde Mezzo Horns (107db) + Basshorns-> Engineered Room (Power, Traps, Helmholtz Resonators, Ceiling Diffusers)[br]Computer Listening:Intel Mac Pro 6G -> Lavry DA10 -> Adams S3A Active Monitors Link to comment
hifitubes Posted February 26, 2010 Share Posted February 26, 2010 The Antelope site has just been updated; + has the WC in option. http://antelopeaudio.com/en/products_zodiacplus.html DIGITAL: Windows 7 x64 JRMC19 >Adnaco S3B fiber over USB (battery power)> Auralic Vega > Tortuga LDR custom LPSU > Zu Union Cubes + Deep Hemp Sub ANALOG: PTP Audio Solid 9 > Audiomods Series V > Audio Technica Art-7 MC > Allnic H1201 > Tortuga LDR > Zu Union Cubes + Deep Hemp Sub ACCESSORIES: PlatterSpeed, BlackCat cables, Antipodes Cables, Huffman Cables, Feickert Protracter, OMA Graphite mat, JRemote Link to comment
jonmarsh Posted February 26, 2010 Share Posted February 26, 2010 But now the Zodiac+ looks like a product set for imminent release. Very curious how this will turn out- whether it's advantageous to use it with an external clock for sonics, or just the internal one. With an analog input also, of course this can replace in some circumstances both a DAC and conventional preamp. Very curious... Link to comment
av_passion Posted February 27, 2010 Share Posted February 27, 2010 The Antelope site has posted a ship date of April 20 for the Zodiac + Link to comment
earflappin Posted February 27, 2010 Share Posted February 27, 2010 Yep, I saw that as well. I realize these guys are a small company, but they really need to get their act together with respect to communications on ship dates. First it was going to be late 2009, then January, then just this past week Sanjay and another dealer apparently were told mid-March and now, on their website they cite April 20. But, dang....the product looks so interesting we are just going to have to wait. In the mean time I may have to try the ULN-8.... :-) Mac Mini / Pure Music > Firewire & USB > Metric Halo LIO-8 > Hypex NCORE 400 > Geddes Abbey Speakers > Rythmik Servo & Geddes Band Pass Subs // DH Labs Cables, HRS MXR Isolation Rack, PurePower 2000, Elgar 6006B Link to comment
av_passion Posted February 27, 2010 Share Posted February 27, 2010 If you do try the ULN-8, I would really like to hear your thoughts both before and after you get the Zodiac +. Link to comment
hubsand Posted March 29, 2010 Share Posted March 29, 2010 So you're just using the pass-thru facility of the DA (inputs and outputs located adjacent to the IEC?) Are you going AES/EBU to the DAC? The rest of the outputs look like clock output only . . . is that right? Link to comment
waltzingbear Posted March 29, 2010 Share Posted March 29, 2010 I found the specs on the transformers Lynx uses, there are two transformers per cube so there is a transformer for all inputs and all output on the AES-16. Sorry for the confusion. Alan Link to comment
Clybourne Posted April 9, 2010 Share Posted April 9, 2010 How could I ever not notice this great forum! Ok, the Zodiac Plus is indeed shipping soon. Sorry for all the delays, but we wanted to add some complex USB capabilities, which essentially allow for not only a control panel, but for firmware updates to be done online and through USB to the Zodiac. This update is done and we're currently manufacturing Zodiac Plus's. In fact, I'm flying back from Europe on Monday with the first couple units for the US. Here's a video of a demo I just did in Amsterdam yesterday for hifi Solutions. For years we've been taking calls and emails from audiophiles asking how our clocks can be used to improve their audio systems. This isn't an easy proposition, as most D/A converters must resolve to the incoming digital audio signal, which also carries the clock. If your source is a CD player, you're pretty much out of the game. But, if you use a soundcard, such as the Lynx AES16, you can get the WC input cable, turn Lynx' Syncrolock off and use our OCX or Trinity clocks to affect the sound. This is actually the setup I use in my own studio. Add a 10M Atomic clock and things get very interesting indeed. Many end-users describe the sound as more 3D and natural, but we'll let others be the judge. So, as for the Isochrone DA. I know many of you report hearing a difference/improvement on many systems and I've discussed this with Igor Levin, our founder and inventor. It could be happening, as some of you have mentioned, due to noise and ground loop isolation. But, the DA does not de-jitter the clock the way Zodiac Plus will. There is a WC input on the Zodiac Plus and if you do clock a soundcard, such as an AES16 with a Trinity and 10M combination and then connect the WC to the Zodiac, you will have an atomically clocked Zodiac. And, well again, it's not my place to comment on how that sounds. You be the judge. Let me know whatever else I can help answer. I do NOT intend to sound like I'm selling you guys on our stuff. I've avoided forums in the past like this, for this exact reason. But, I'm also a fan of great audio and I, like many of you, just want to get to the bottom of how to make the best sounding computer audio system. Regards, Marcel James Antelope Audio Link to comment
Part-Time Audiophile Posted April 9, 2010 Share Posted April 9, 2010 Appreciate your contribution! And yes, shame on you for letting us spin our wheels for so long. LOL. Scot Hull Part-Time Audiophile Link to comment
davidR Posted April 12, 2010 Share Posted April 12, 2010 Marcel, thanks for posting. I enjoy your videos; keep them coming. I've been preaching external clocks for the past couple of years with few englightened souls. I'm glad you mentioned clocking BOTH the DAC and source with the same clock if people have WC inputs at their source. I know a few listeners around here tried simply clocking their Lynx cards with an external clock without clocking the DAC for lack of WC input which theoretically shouldn't offer much improvement; and they didn't hear much of a difference if any rightfully so. Igor certainly uses interesting methods (in a good way) for Antelope's designs. Keep doing what you do; I certainly appreciate it. Advancing digital audio reproduction gets nothing but respect in my book and is what we should all strive for. david is hear[br]http://www.tuniverse.tv Link to comment
mitkey Posted October 3, 2010 Share Posted October 3, 2010 due to budget concern, and I dont need headphone, is the zodiac and zodiac+ sound the same given the same cd transport input ? control PC : NUC 5ppyh, LPS Audio PC : 2 x PPA V3 USB audio PC, HDPLEX LPS USB SPDIF : Singxer F1 DAC : MSB Analog (dedicated power supply) with Quad rate USB Power amp : AudioGD C1 Speaker : Dynaudio C1 Subwoofer : REL Stratus II Link to comment
Clybourne Posted October 3, 2010 Share Posted October 3, 2010 The silver base model Zodiac will be the last to ship and will sound the same as the Zodiac Plus, other than there is no AES input or WC input on the Zodiac. So, it will also depend on how you're using it. Link to comment
mitkey Posted October 3, 2010 Share Posted October 3, 2010 just wonder if the 10M clock cost >5k? Frankly speaking, with all my gears black, I would want my DAC to be black too. But I would not want to pay extra for features that are irrelevant to me. Is silver going to ship soon ? control PC : NUC 5ppyh, LPS Audio PC : 2 x PPA V3 USB audio PC, HDPLEX LPS USB SPDIF : Singxer F1 DAC : MSB Analog (dedicated power supply) with Quad rate USB Power amp : AudioGD C1 Speaker : Dynaudio C1 Subwoofer : REL Stratus II Link to comment
Clybourne Posted October 3, 2010 Share Posted October 3, 2010 10M sells for 5995. But, you do need one of our other clocks to use with it and a Trinity sells for 3995, for example. It really wouldn't make sense to use one of the other clocks than a Trinity/10M combo, if you wanted to try to improve the Zodiac Plus further, as the Zodiac already has Trinity level clocking inside. Silver Zodiac will ship sometime early in 2011. No date set yet. Link to comment
waltzingbear Posted October 3, 2010 Share Posted October 3, 2010 if all your gear is black, these are going to stand out as garish cheap plastic looking c**p. I can't believe they actually expect people to look at the products and believe they are serious, I know people who swear by them, but I just spent 5 hours working next to one and it reminds me of cheap Japanese gear from the 70s. Think Nikko. Get a clue Antelope! I don't know if they do the job or not. I personally have a problem with a company that drops its distributors/support/etc and closes its doors with no thought to its users. Not even leaving it's manuals online. That company was Antelo... oops I mean Aardvark. Same people. New name. Will they be around tomorrow? I don't know, and they certainly won't tell you if the past is a predictor of the future. Link to comment
Clybourne Posted October 3, 2010 Share Posted October 3, 2010 1. All our gear isn't black. 2. We've never had any complaints about the looks/design of our products, quite the contrary. 3. Yes, you're correct many many people swear by them and we're extremely grateful for our loyal customers, whom we work hard to give great customer service. 4. You bring up Aardvark. That company was in business over 10 years, which isn't a brief run in the audio industry. Antelope has the same inventor, but the company had different owners. 5. Antelope has been in business now nearly 7 years and is going strong. I've been with the company myself over 5 years and have loved every minute of it. It's an amazing company with a very bright future. Link to comment
mitkey Posted October 3, 2010 Share Posted October 3, 2010 I believe this company has serious stuff to offer and the reviews are pouring in and judging by the sold out condition, it is indeed gaining great future. However I do hope you look into customer request/feedback in your next product launch. I am infact looking for an even cheaper strip down version of antelope dac without headphone and volume control which you can just omit the components. The lesser the active components, the lesser the interference. control PC : NUC 5ppyh, LPS Audio PC : 2 x PPA V3 USB audio PC, HDPLEX LPS USB SPDIF : Singxer F1 DAC : MSB Analog (dedicated power supply) with Quad rate USB Power amp : AudioGD C1 Speaker : Dynaudio C1 Subwoofer : REL Stratus II Link to comment
ItemAudio Posted October 6, 2010 Share Posted October 6, 2010 I had a customer call me yesterday who was having similar positive results with the DA being used to reclock the digital output from the Digigram VX222e, looped back through into its digital input, using the onboard DA conversion. For the record, we don't stock the Isochrone DA: we had an old demonstrator gathering dust and he wanted to try it, but he felt it made a really worthwhile improvement, describing audio symptoms consistent with reduced jitter (more open, relaxed, natural; less digital, sibilant etc). Link to comment
dallasjustice Posted October 20, 2010 Share Posted October 20, 2010 I output from my computer via Lynx AES 16 via AES to an Isochrone DA and then to my NAD M2 (DAC+amp combo). The NAD M2 does not have a W/C input. The addition of the Isochrone DA made an excellent improvement in sound. After having read some of these posts, I decided to get an external master clock. I ordered the Antelope OCX from Sweetwater. My question has to do with how best to hook it up in my system. Robert at Sweetwater recommended a BNC connection from the OCX to the DA. He said it would be unnecessary to also connect the OCX directly to the Lynx AES16. Does anyone have advice on how best to connect the OCX external clock? THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX Link to comment
hifitubes Posted October 22, 2010 Share Posted October 22, 2010 I don't know enough about the DA unit, but the Lynx is still the transport. And I assume it is now set to Internal clock? I believe it would be ideal, in your case, to do a "house sync" where everything is clocked directly to your master clock, with BNC, if possible. DIGITAL: Windows 7 x64 JRMC19 >Adnaco S3B fiber over USB (battery power)> Auralic Vega > Tortuga LDR custom LPSU > Zu Union Cubes + Deep Hemp Sub ANALOG: PTP Audio Solid 9 > Audiomods Series V > Audio Technica Art-7 MC > Allnic H1201 > Tortuga LDR > Zu Union Cubes + Deep Hemp Sub ACCESSORIES: PlatterSpeed, BlackCat cables, Antipodes Cables, Huffman Cables, Feickert Protracter, OMA Graphite mat, JRemote Link to comment
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