Regen?

DEANO2 · August 28, 2015

I can only go from my experience, tried STELLO, wyred4sound dac2, rega dac, NAD M51 and they all sounded better when set to 100% and the volume controlled by a device , designed , built and sold for the purpose of controlling attenuation and gain. I have not used an ifi nano nor read it's output specs. But have read some marketing material. I doubt it would overload a preamp when set to 100%. But the point of double attenuation is moot if one is set to 100% or in case of the preamp unity gain.

Sent from my SM-T113 using Tapatalk

Jud · August 28, 2015

If DEANO2 is using a pre amp why do you want me to bypass mine, is it because mine is not that good of quality?

Because you actually have two and you only need one. Your DAC has all the pre-amp function you use (a volume control) built in. Each component you add isn't perfect, so it creates some distortion. So the idea is to see if taking out the pre-amp makes the overall system sound better than having it in, since it's just a second volume control you don't need.

Jud · August 28, 2015

If that is correct, it seems strange that, when publishing basic advice on the use of the vol pot, ifi would presume its users will not be using an integrated or pre amp.

It's still not clear to me why the OP needs to go beyond 75% on the Nano. Just stick to ifi's advice and if not sure if it applies... ask them...

He doesn't. He could turn the B&K all the way up, or take it out entirely and control volume from the Nano. When he does that he can use the Nano in the recommended range.

DEANO2 · August 28, 2015

I wouldn't turn up the volume all the way up on the B & K because that is adding a lot of gain. Far better if in doubt where unity gain is, would be to take it out and avoid saturating the input of his amp. I wish it was a balanced unit, I'd send him my spare passive preamp/ attentuator.

Sent from my SM-T113 using Tapatalk

Jud · August 28, 2015

I wouldn't turn up the volume all the way up on the B & K because that is adding a lot of gain. Far better if in doubt where unity gain is, would be to take it out and avoid saturating the input of his amp. I wish it was a balanced unit, I'd send him my spare passive preamp/ attentuator.

Sent from my SM-T113 using Tapatalk

Deano, you're confusing two concepts. "Unity gain" is only bypass in the sense that it "bypasses" amplification; it does *not* take the attenuator electrically out of the circuit, which is what we're trying to do (by one means or another, either physically removing or turning the control all the way up). And there is no worry about saturating the amp's input, because he's got the second analog volume control on the DAC.

And my God, he hopefully doesn't need another (third) attenuator. If he does (that is, if for some reason everything goes sideways with the B&K out of the picture), I've got an excellent dirt cheap high quality recommendation, which is the Schiit Audio SYS at $49.

I have one because with certain software I use on Linux with my desktop, my Geek Out DAC (which, like the Nano, has an analog volume control) refuses to back off of 100% volume, so I can't run it direct to my amp. Bought the SYS on the recommendation of another forum member that it beats fancier passive/attenuator units at much higher prices, and I could not be happier with the quality and performance.

But let's let our friend try out *one* volume control in his system before considering a third, eh?

Jud · August 28, 2015

If that is correct, it seems strange that, when publishing basic advice on the use of the vol pot, ifi would presume its users will not be using an integrated or pre amp.

...

Because it is indeed "basic advice on the use of the vol pot," not advanced advice on how *not* to use it in more complex configurations when there are multiple attenuators in the system.

Certainly he can ask ifi, though my guess is they'll tell him there's nothing they can say about how to adjust other manufacturers' equipment, so that leaves out any information about what to do with the B&K.

Or he can simply try the three configurations (B&K physically gone; B&K 100%, volume adjustment done with Nano; Nano 100%, volume adjustment done with B&K) and find out for himself definitively what sounds best in his own home system, in about 20 minutes' time.

sandyk · August 28, 2015

Jud

A good Preamp can often sound better than when using digital volume control from a device such as the W4S

Yes, I have heard a DSD capable W4S.

Regards

Alex

Jud · August 28, 2015

Jud
A good Preamp can often sound better than when using digital volume control from a device such as the W4S

Yes, I have heard a DSD capable W4S.

Regards

Alex

Hi Alex. Certainly you are correct, but that isn't the precise situation.

First, the Nano's volume control is *analog*. Now it may well be that the B&K volume control is better sonically than the Nano's, and we'll find that out. I'd like to start with the "cleanest" situation electrically, which is to get one of the two redundant analog volume controls out of the system entirely. Since there will be no sound if the Nano is removed, that leaves the B&K.

If for whatever reason that doesn't work out, then he can alternate having one of the two analog attenuators at 100% to get it out of the circuit while adjusting volume with the other, and see which sounds best in his system.

4est · August 28, 2015

Hmm,

I beg to differ with some of your theory on volume controls, and for the record it is not an attenuater, but it does attenuate. An attenuater starts at 100% fully CCW and reduces output as it is turned CW. Just the opposite of an volume/gain control.

It is unlikely that the Nano is actually a pre amp, but it is possible. Many inexpensive DACs have a volume potentiometer (volume control- VC) on their output, and people call it a pre amp. 'Taint so. A true pre amp will typically nestle that VC between amplifier stages, whereby allowing it's use with fewer deleterious effects by not allowing that VC to be part of the output circuit. Enough history, off my soapbox...

I mention all of this, because that B&K may have tons of gain. I tried to find the specs, but I am not sure if they are correct. It stated 63mV in ( I assume it is 630mV=.63V) and 8v out. I looked up the Nano, and it said about 1.5V out. I do not know the input for the amp, but .63V>8V is a lot of gain, and there may be an over driving situation within the Preamp.

My first try would be to set the pre amp at 0db, and adjust the Nano to give you the loudest you would ever want, and then use the pre's VC, leaving the Nano alone. This may still have too much gain, if so, place the dial on the Nano at 12:00. Lastly, have you tried digital volume control to see what it does? I have seen player programs that have computer VC slider that goes past 100%, which is essentially digital gain which sounds awful to my ears.

Hi Alex. Certainly you are correct, but that isn't the precise situation.

First, the Nano's volume control is *analog*. Now it may well be that the B&K volume control is better sonically than the Nano's, and we'll find that out. I'd like to start with the "cleanest" situation electrically, which is to get one of the two redundant analog volume controls out of the system entirely. Since there will be no sound if the Nano is removed, that leaves the B&K.

If for whatever reason that doesn't work out, then he can alternate having one of the two analog attenuators at 100% to get it out of the circuit while adjusting volume with the other, and see which sounds best in his system.

Jud · August 28, 2015

Hmm,

I beg to differ with some of your theory on volume controls, and for the record it is not an attenuater, but it does attenuate. An attenuater starts at 100% fully CCW and reduces output as it is turned CW. Just the opposite of an volume/gain control.

It is unlikely that the Nano is actually a pre amp, but it is possible. Many inexpensive DACs have a volume potentiometer (volume control- VC) on their output, and people call it a pre amp. 'Taint so. A true pre amp will typically nestle that VC between amplifier stages, whereby allowing it's use with fewer deleterious effects by not allowing that VC to be part of the output circuit. Enough history, off my soapbox...

Hi Forrest. I don't know if anyone called the Nano a pre-amp. I didn't. It does, however, have an analog volume control, which appears to be all the OP is using his pre-amp for.

I mention all of this, because that B&K may have tons of gain. I tried to find the specs, but I am not sure if they are correct. It stated 63mV in ( I assume it is 630mV=.63V) and 8v out. I looked up the Nano, and it said about 1.5V out. I do not know the input for the amp, but .63V>8V is a lot of gain, and there may be an over driving situation within the Preamp.

My first try would be to set the pre amp at 0db, and adjust the Nano to give you the loudest you would ever want, and then use the pre's VC, leaving the Nano alone. This may still have too much gain, if so, place the dial on the Nano at 12:00.

Right. So as I've been saying, it's simple, free and quick to see whether any of the three alternative situations (B&K out, B&K 100%, Nano 100%) sound better than what the OP has now (B&K and Nano both operating at levels less than 100%). If the Nano doesn't have enough oomph to drive the amp directly, we'll soon see; same with an overdriving situation; same if the Nano can't provide sufficiently fine adjustment when turning the B&K to 100%. If none of these three situations is satisfactory, the OP is no worse off than before. If any of them is, there's a chance he's better off.

Lastly, have you tried digital volume control to see what it does? I have seen player programs that have computer VC slider that goes past 100%, which is essentially digital gain which sounds awful to my ears.

This is OT, but yes. They haven't been awful (never experienced one that went past "100%," or "0db," or "up to 11" ), but not as good as analog control, except for the one PeterSt has built into XXHighEnd, which uses some clever math to suffer no loss of quality to my ears.

Jamesroy · August 28, 2015

Thanks all. The one thing you talk about I have tried. The nano at 100% and then controlling volume with the B&K and it didn't sound as good as the nano at about 85% and the B&L at about -24dB. Will try and disconnect the preamp today and hookup straight into the Power amp which is a Reference 200.2 S2 225w rms the pre amp is a reference 5 S2. Thanks

What part of the country do you live in Jud if you don't mind.

Jud · August 28, 2015

Thanks all. The one thing you talk about I have tried. The nano at 100% and then controlling volume with the B&K and it didn't sound as good as the nano at about 85% and the B&L at about -24dB. Will try and disconnect the preamp today and hookup straight into the Power amp which is a Reference 200.2 S2 225w rms the pre amp is a reference 5 S2. Thanks
What part of the country do you live in Jud if you don't mind.

Pennsylvania.

Jamesroy · August 28, 2015

Same here but the Air Force brought me to New Mexico years ago. I'm originally from Kittanning Pa. my Wife from Ford City. Kittanning is a mess now. Had to travel back so my Cerabal Palsy grandson could be looked at by a great eye Dr. in Pitt's

Jamesroy · August 28, 2015

OK Jud To Pre or not to Pre. One thing I failed to mention about my preamp set up is that I have my power controlled sub woofer connected to it. Reason is the room I'm in has a vaulted ceiling UGH! So my hopes were that the sub would fill in some of the hard sound bouncing around. And it seems it did. So I just finished listening to my system without the Preamp. Very clean all around but two things. No sub woofer so the bass is a bit week and the hard sound of say a snare drum or whichever drum drummers do "rim shots" with is week. I have the nano at 12:00 and any louder and no improvement in quality. I think I like the pre amp back in? And here is a better shot of my interface cables.

Jamesroy · August 28, 2015

My Paradigm 100 S speakers

DEANO2 · August 28, 2015

I know what you mean, by the use of two devices of attenuation and don't disagree with the concept of one device to control volume. Which should lower distortion . But at some point a preamplifier stops attentuating and actually increases the signal. The output of the ifi, I believe is around 1.5 volts. Which should be more than enough to drive his amplifier to moderate levels. What I was on about is, which of the two is the better. Given that he already had them connected he should try it. James, has said he didn't like the sound the way I suggested. And that is great, because he is the one listening to it. Been interesting . Once he has heard it the other way we could discuss USB cables, lol. I'd be able send one to him to try (for nothing, zip, nada, no cost) which I got from Latvia. It sounded better to my ears than an audioquest carbon. He can contact me if he wants to try it down the track.

Sent from my SM-T113 using Tapatalk

DEANO2 · August 28, 2015

Just an aside, sorry to hear your grandson has been having problems Jud. Just lost my father recently who I gave up work to look after. He had multiple amputations, leukaemia and diving into computer audio has kept me sane and I have learnt something along the way. Best of luck and regards from Australia, Deano out.

Sent from my SM-T113 using Tapatalk

4est · August 28, 2015

This result does not surprise me. I'd put the Nano at 12:00 with the preamp back in and enjoy it!

[ATTACH=CONFIG]20601[/ATTACH]OK Jud To Pre or not to Pre. One thing I failed to mention about my preamp set up is that I have my power controlled sub woofer connected to it. Reason is the room I'm in has a vaulted ceiling UGH! So my hopes were that the sub would fill in some of the hard sound bouncing around. And it seems it did. So I just finished listening to my system without the Preamp. Very clean all around but two things. No sub woofer so the bass is a bit week and the hard sound of say a snare drum or whichever drum drummers do "rim shots" with is week. I have the nano at 12:00 and any louder and no improvement in quality. I think I like the pre amp back in? And here is a better shot of my interface cables.

Jamesroy · August 28, 2015

DEANO2 sorry to hear about your Father, thank you for your input.

Don't get me wrong, without the preamp the sound is the clearest so far but just lost that extra kick. I'm wondering if my power amp is powerful enough to drive the speakers. I guess that question has been ask buy every audiophile alive. Thoughts Jud?

DEANO2 · August 28, 2015

The ifi with only 1.5 volts out does seem to need further amplification and gain which you will only get from putting your preamp back in. I forgot to mention i have a regen amber and the benefits are profound in a really good way to. The bass really tightens up and has a heap more clarity. Worthwhile down the track.

Sent from my SM-T113 using Tapatalk

DEANO2 · August 28, 2015

They should match, being from the same manufacturer. Now what size of room are we talking about, it's shape and far away from your speakers are you listening. Your speakers I notice are front ported. To get extra bass, you could try moving back towards the rear wall a little bit at a time. Also I noticed they appear to be pretty close to the corner. Probably the worst place to put them because of sound reflections from your side walls. How far apart are they from each other measuring from the middle of the central point of the driver's (rough estimate would do) ?

Sent from my SM-T113 using Tapatalk

DEANO2 · August 28, 2015

Sorry moving the speaker back towards the wall. This increases room gain especially bass.

Sent from my SM-T113 using Tapatalk

Jud · August 28, 2015

Just an aside, sorry to hear your grandson has been having problems Jud. Just lost my father recently who I gave up work to look after. He had multiple amputations, leukaemia and diving into computer audio has kept me sane and I have learnt something along the way. Best of luck and regards from Australia, Deano out.

Sent from my SM-T113 using Tapatalk

That would be Jim with the grandson. Sorry to hear about your dad. I'm old , so I lost mine a few years ago, but still think of him often. Kindest, gentlest man I've ever known.

Jim, I went to college at Pitt.

Jud · August 28, 2015

DEANO2 sorry to hear about your Father, thank you for your input.
Don't get me wrong, without the preamp the sound is the clearest so far but just lost that extra kick. I'm wondering if my power amp is powerful enough to drive the speakers. I guess that question has been ask buy every audiophile alive. Thoughts Jud?

I think it's a dilemma. So we got nice clear sound, but not enough oomph. As Deano says, seems like the pre-amp will have to go back in. When you do that, experiment a little with turning the pre-amp all the way up and controlling the volume with the Nano. If that's no good, then just go back to the way you had it in the first place.

Then, two things:

- This is an excellent book full of answers for just the sorts of questions you're asking. Probably will want to get the version with the DVD:

Get Better Sound - Place Order

- The Regen may help, and I certainly wouldn't discourage you from thinking about getting one. First get the book, though, and use some of the tips about arranging your room (as far as you can). Then if/when you do get the Regen, your system can take full advantage of it.

Jamesroy · August 28, 2015

Thanks Jud, can't move spkr's back the stand i have the MacBook on is in the way. But earlier, long before this forum I tried that and lost the imaging in the middle. I'll search out the book.

Regen?

Recommended Posts

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Create an account or sign in to comment

Create an account

Sign in