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"Ultimate"? I sort of doubt you will be able to beat this: Kii Audio GmbH - High End Active Speakers for HiFi and Professional use.

 

Designed by some of the best audiophile designers in the world.

Main listening (small home office):

Main setup: Surge protector +_iFi  AC iPurifiers >Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Conditioning+Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three >GIK Room Treatments.

Secondary Listening: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Matrix Element i Streamer/DAC (XLR)+Schiit Freya>Kii Three .

Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup.
Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. 

All absolute statements about audio are false :)

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"Ultimate"? I sort of doubt you will be able to beat this: Kii Audio GmbH - High End Active Speakers for HiFi and Professional use.

 

Designed by some of the best audiophile designers in the world.

 

Yes I know all about those. Very nice engineering. But my system will be at another level when it comes to DSP/DAC technology and build quality.

 

Although they will also use Bruno's latest Ncore amp technology, they will be custom designed with discrete pure class A input stages.

 

 

There's only so much you can do at the price point of the Kii's. But I think at their price point they probably hit a Home run. As long as the styling fits into your decor.

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Blizzard, a question (and I'm not trying to be nasty):

 

Correct me if I'm ignorant of your audio acheivements, but what actual high level audio products have your produced in your life? And if you have produced them, has anyone other than yourself proclaimed them to be the "ultimate"?

 

On what basis (other than your repeated claims) should anyone believe that you know more about how to implement Ncore technology than Bruno Putzey and more about DACs and DSP than Bart van der Laan? People who have already built successful audiophile active DSP speakers considered among the best, if not the best, in the world to this point (Grimm LS).

 

BTW, Kii is also planning to market 2 other systems: a smaller less expensive one and a larger floorstander. Maybe if we are lucky the floorstander will have a high enough price point that it can come close to competing with your "ultimate" system.

 

Ever heard of the word "modesty"?...

Main listening (small home office):

Main setup: Surge protector +_iFi  AC iPurifiers >Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Conditioning+Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three >GIK Room Treatments.

Secondary Listening: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Matrix Element i Streamer/DAC (XLR)+Schiit Freya>Kii Three .

Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup.
Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. 

All absolute statements about audio are false :)

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Blizzard, a question (and I'm not trying to be nasty):

 

Correct me if I'm ignorant of your audio acheivements, but what actual high level audio products have your produced in your life? And if you have produced them, has anyone other than yourself proclaimed them to be the "ultimate"?

 

On what basis (other than your repeated claims) should anyone believe that you know more about how to implement Ncore technology than Bruno Putzey and more about DACs and DSP than Bart van der Laan? People who have already built successful audiophile active DSP speakers considered among the best, if not the best, in the world to this point (Grimm LS).

 

BTW, Kii is also planning to market 2 other systems: a smaller less expensive one and a larger floorstander. Maybe if we are lucky the floorstander will have a high enough price point that it can come close to competing with your "ultimate" system.

 

Ever heard of the word "modesty"?...

 

I come from a background of building high end passive speakers. I've built dozens over the past 20 years, but more at a hobby level. I haven't attempted to enter the serious marketplace yet. I've been building amps based on Hypex technology for 7 years now so I'm quite familiar with how they operate, and what can be achieved with different input stages.

 

I recently built my first active system and I'm using it to test electronics for the next system.

 

I'm not saying I know how to implement Ncore technology better than Bruno, and DSP/DAC's better than Bert van derr Laan. What I said is my system will be at another level. But it will also be at another price point.

 

You need to understand that they have 12 channels of amps, 12 channels of DACs, 12 drivers, DSP chips etc crammed into 2 small speakers. There's only so much that can be done for $10000. But definitely they have probably built the most cutting edge active system yet.

 

One area I know that's weak for sure is the cabinet build quality. But I'm sure the technology more than balances that out.

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I use s Deqx in my 3 Way (only 2 Way, at the moment) system. I find it very easy to use and to get to a good result. Mini dsp is just not that good in my opinion, but perhaps a haven't heard the best yet!

 

That's awesome! I always wanted to try the DEQX system. I agree the mini DSP stuff is more entry level. Not serious high end.

 

What are you using for speakers? Custom made cabinets? What kinds of drivers?

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Diy cabinets (test ones made and measured with drivers in a sounddead room). I am building small linesource speakers with corner subwoofers. I use Audiotechnology drivers for the midrange (C-Quenze 4") 8 in each side. The subwoofers are made by a set of to 12" flex units per side, with laminated membrans (sandwich).

The tweeters is a pair of handmade ribbons (135 cm long) and with neomagnets. Cabinets are made of mdf and aluminium, with a lot of bitumen (astfaltlead..) indide the cabinets.

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Diy cabinets (test ones made and measured with drivers in a sounddead room). I am building small linesource speakers with corner subwoofers. I use Audiotechnology drivers for the midrange (C-Quenze 4") 8 in each side. The subwoofers are made by a set of to 12" flex units per side, with laminated membrans (sandwich).

The tweeters is a pair of handmade ribbons (135 cm long) and with neomagnets. Cabinets are made of mdf and aluminium, with a lot of bitumen (astfaltlead..) indide the cabinets.

 

Wow sounds like a pretty high end setup! Those Audio technology drivers are super nice. You'll have to share some pics when their ready.

 

 

Here's some pictures of my last active build. They aren't even sanded or finished yet.

 

 

 

I used stacked Latvian birch plywood. Inside is built like a pyramid with no parallel walls. Baffles are 2.25" thick and wall thickness is up to 4".

 

There's a sub enclosure on the rear of the woofer cabinets that house custom Hypex NC500 based amps with pure class a discrete input stages.

 

It's just something I threw together fast to use up some old drivers I had laying around. I'm using them to test electronics for my next system which will be much more serious.

 

ImageUploadedByComputer Audiophile1437984398.618881.jpg

ImageUploadedByComputer Audiophile1437984355.301254.jpg

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They look very nice, which drivers are you going to use, for the new project !? Ncore 500 sounds interesting too. I use Holton amplifier modules in my poweramplifiers.

 

Thanks. I'm going to try the 7" Scan-Speak aluminum coned Illuminators, and 3 different tweeters for now. The Raal 70-20X, as well as both Scan-Speak Beryllium tweeters.

 

I normally wouldn't use the aluminum coned Illuminators in a passive design because of the resonance breakup. I prefer minimalistic passive designs. But going active allows for no compromise high order slopes so won't be a problem. It's a seriously awesome driver if implemented properly.

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Sonds very good. I had the scanspeak berylium tweeters, and i think it is the best dome tweeter there is. But the Raal's look absolutly great to, i would like to try those some time..

 

Which Scan-Speak beryllium tweeters did you try? The 3004's or 2908's.

 

I'm going to try both in this system and see which I prefer.

 

The Raal 70-20xr is definitely among the finest ribbons available. But I'm going to offer a choice between ribbon and dome. Some people just don't like the off axis vertical dispersion pattern of ribbons, so instead of telling them they are wrong, I'm going to offer the choice of a "R" and "D" version.

 

There's another excellent beryllium dome on the market available as well. Not quite in the league of the Scan-Speak, but it's cheaper for those on a budget.

 

http://www.transducerlab.com/index.php?pag=pro&p=p&i=51

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Ok so you are thinking of make a produktion of speakers or!?..

 

I used the 3004 version and i have not heard the other one..! I do not think useing a lower quality unit is a good idea. when you going active you do not have to spend money on passive filter and trimning that over and over again :-) so if i were you i would use the best units i could get..

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Ok so you are thinking of make a produktion of speakers or!?..

 

I used the 3004 version and i have not heard the other one..! I do not think useing a lower quality unit is a good idea. when you going active you do not have to spend money on passive filter and trimning that over and over again :-) so if i were you i would use the best units i could get..

 

Maybe down the road if I can accomplish what I set out to do.

 

 

Yes I agree the best tweeters must be used in a system of this caliber.

 

The 2908's are actually more expensive than the 3004's. But I think it all comes down to implementation and personal taste when it comes to which unit is superior. This is why I'm going to try both.

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Yes i agree. It depends on what the driver/unit is going work with.. how hard it is pushed, and how many there is to do the job..

 

That's right. Your approach of using 8 4" drivers is a good one. You can't beat a 4" when it comes to off axis dispersion. Unless you go with a dome mid. But in my experience with dome mids, as fantastic as they are at producing midrange, the challenge is being able to coherently blend them with a woofer/midwoofer.

 

My system is actually going to be scaleable from a 2 way mini monitor up to a massive 4 way super tower. The 7" midwoofer/ tweeter combo will be how it starts. The full blown system will use single or dual 4" custom aluminum coned Scan-Speak Illuminators. They will blend coherently with the 7's.

 

There will also be single or dual 10" drivers optionally available for the woofers. I can't give too much info away on them at this time. But think of a larger Illuminator motor on a 10" driver and imagine the possibilities :)

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That's right. Your approach of using 8 4" drivers is a good one. You can't beat a 4" when it comes to off axis dispersion. Unless you go with a dome mid. But in my experience with dome mids, as fantastic as they are at producing midrange, the challenge is being able to coherently blend them with a woofer/midwoofer.

 

My system is actually going to be scaleable from a 2 way mini monitor up to a massive 4 way super tower. The 7" midwoofer/ tweeter combo will be how it starts. The full blown system will use single or dual 4" custom aluminum coned Scan-Speak Illuminators. They will blend coherently with the 7's.

 

There will also be single or dual 10" drivers optionally available for the woofers. I can't give too much info away on them at this time. But think of a larger Illuminator motor on a 10" driver and imagine the possibilities :)

 

Good idea. You could make a mtm with those to 4" sitting on top of the 7" and 10"..!

 

After i put in Regen in my system, the need for sub woffers are not needed the same way as before, but i still like the sound that only a large surface /menbrane areal can make :-)

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Good idea. You could make a mtm with those to 4" sitting on top of the 7" and 10"..!

 

After i put in Regen in my system, the need for sub woffers are not needed the same way as before, but i still like the sound that only a large surface /menbrane areal can make :-)

 

Actually I'm not a huge fan of MTM designs. I use a different approach that I've been working on for several years.

 

The MTM approach was developed to overcome 2 problems. 1 is lobing issues experienced with dual drivers in a MMT arrangement, as well as putting the tweeter in the center makes the system act as more of a point source.

 

Problem is it limits the vertical dispersion much in the same way a ribbon tweeter does. You also have a much narrower sweet spot.

 

The method I'm using overcomes the lobing, and maintains the dispersion experienced from a small 2 way mini monitor. Yet it also takes advantage of the surface area and volume displacement of dual drivers. It makes dual drivers operate as if they are 1 in the best way I have found.

 

In the full blown system there will be dual 10's, dual 7's dual 4's and a single tweeter. The 7's and 4's will be operating as if they were single units. The level of top to bottom coherence experienced from this kind of system must be heard to be believed. Think ultimate 2 way mini monitor soundstage combined with foundation cracking dynamics.

 

Each driver will have its own 550w dedicated amp which doesn't hurt dynamics as well :)

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Well i do like mtm sytem and was happy with it for a while. the problem when makeing 3 or 4 Way speakers, passive or active (with an advantage to the last) is that you can be forced to make crossovers in the midrange from 1500 hz down to 150 hz. which is critical. Of course it is possible, but the easiest task i think..! with a good active crossover i think you can du it, but passive and whitout the funds of a better loudspeaker brands lab, you are up for big job..:-). good thing for you that you are chooseing the active way.

 

I would like to hear those Ncore some time, perhaps it is the one class D amp, i have been missing!! Ive had ICE power amps (1000 A and 1000 asp) hypex 180 ad (i think that is the model) and Lc audio zap pulze 2.1 se. Non of which i would use for any thing else than sub's. But i heard some good things about Ncore 700, so i guess the 500 are much the same :-)!

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Well i do like mtm sytem and was happy with it for a while. the problem when makeing 3 or 4 Way speakers, passive or active (with an advantage to the last) is that you can be forced to make crossovers in the midrange from 1500 hz down to 150 hz. which is critical. Of course it is possible, but the easiest task i think..! with a good active crossover i think you can du it, but passive and whitout the funds of a better loudspeaker brands lab, you are up for big job..:-). good thing for you that you are chooseing the active way.

 

I would like to hear those Ncore some time, perhaps it is the one class D amp, i have been missing!! Ive had ICE power amps (1000 A and 1000 asp) hypex 180 ad (i think that is the model) and Lc audio zap pulze 2.1 se. Non of which i would use for any thing else than sub's. But i heard some good things about Ncore 700, so i guess the 500 are much the same :-)!

 

I agree that you shouldn't crossover in the 150-1500 region as well. This is why the 4" mids will run down to 100hz electrically, but will start rolling off acoustically around 150hz from cabinet tuning. All electrical crossover points will be 100hz or lower other than the tweeter.

 

The Hypex 700 is actually a lower end UCD model, but is also a good amp. The only Ncores that have been available so far has been the OEM NC 1200, the DIY NC400 and they recently released the OEM only NC500. The NC 500 is the best yet but has no input stage. Some select OEM's who order large quantities can get a 250w version like is used in the KII.

 

The NC500's with my pure class A discrete input stage, kill my NC400's with their fancy discrete input stage. So they have definitely hit a home run on this latest module.

 

Since your working on a line array I found a very good article on them that may be of interest to you. Perhaps you already found it yourself, but if not here's the link.

 

http://meyersound.com/pdf/support/papers/meyer_line_array.pdf

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Ok that makes sense, but those 4" scanspeak do have to put on their working pants :-).. Are you not afraid of lose power in the lower midrange/upper bass ! Hmm perhaps it would be ok! From 100 and Down there should a lot of power if you are going for to 7" and to 10" to handle that area..:-).

 

What psu. are you useing for those 500 Ncore...! Smps?

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Ok that makes sense, but those 4" scanspeak do have to put on their working pants :-).. Are you not afraid of lose power in the lower midrange/upper bass ! Hmm perhaps it would be ok! From 100 and Down there should a lot of power if you are going for to 7" and to 10" to handle that area..:-).

 

What psu. are you useing for those 500 Ncore...! Smps?

 

You would be surprised what a driver like that can cleanly put out under the following 3 conditions:

 

Proper cabinet tuning

 

Electrical filtering to cut out FZ below 100 HZ

 

Directly coupling the driver to the amp.

 

The 3rd one is a big one. If you want to experiment, place a 4th order crossover in the path of one of your 4" drivers and run another one right beside it direct to an amp channel. Play some music that has loud bass that moves the cones a lot. The driver connected to the passive circuit will appear to be flopping around uncontrolled compared to the other. It will also distort and crap out at much lower volume levels.

 

I'm using a dedicated SMPS 1200A700 for the 7's, 4's and tweets. And if the 10's are in the picture each 10" driver will have its own dedicated 1200A700.

 

Overkill, not really :)

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Yes i know that active crossover does to the sound in terms of handleing the drivers in way passive filtrering just can't beat, but i would still be a little afraid of not getting enough power in that low midrange.. But let's hear what the result will be, i do hope it will what you expect it to be :-). I do not think to much power, is a problem many people are dealing with.. I for one had my share of "it sounds of a lot more then the to x 40 watts it in fact is" :-)... Yes yes but can i please have the Big one instead :-)

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