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Finally! Amused to Death...


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Can someone tell me why it would not be the case that the 192/24 version available for download *also* is the result of first converting a 192/24 mix master to analog, so indeed all downloads would come from the same analog stage?

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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Can someone tell me why it would not be the case that the 192/24 version available for download *also* is the result of first converting a 192/24 mix master to analog, so indeed all downloads would come from the same analog stage?

Not sure I follow... You mean 192/24=>analog tape=>all digital formats (including back to 192/24)?

 

If this is what you mean, well, it would seem a bit convoluted unless there's a belief in the production/engineering team that going to analog results in an improvement, an euphonic filtering. Surely the two will sound different.

NUC10i7 + Roon ROCK > dCS Rossini APEX DAC + dCS Rossini Master Clock 

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Audio Note Kondo Ongaku > Avantgarde Duo Mezzo

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Not sure I follow... You mean 192/24=>analog tape=>all digital formats (including back to 192/24)?

 

If this is what you mean, well, it would seem a bit convoluted unless there's a belief in the production/engineering team that going to analog results in an improvement, an euphonic filtering. Surely the two will sound different.

 

If they had an 192/24 file, and for some reason wanted to make it also available as DSD, why haven't they simply up-converted the PCM tracks to DSD 5.6MHz/128Fs with something like Weiss Saracon software?

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If they had an 192/24 file, and for some reason wanted to make it also available as DSD, why haven't they simply up-converted the PCM tracks to DSD 5.6MHz/128Fs with something like Weiss Saracon software?

 

What for? to shift potential noise away from the audible range? Disputing.

--

Krzysztof Maj

http://mkrzych.wordpress.com/

"Music is the highest form of art. It is also the most noble. It is human emotion, captured, crystallised, encased… and then passed on to others." - By Ken Ishiwata

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If they had an 192/24 file, and for some reason wanted to make it also available as DSD, why haven't they simply up-converted the PCM tracks to DSD 5.6MHz/128Fs with something like Weiss Saracon software?

You could do that yourself...

NUC10i7 + Roon ROCK > dCS Rossini APEX DAC + dCS Rossini Master Clock 

SME 20/3 + SME V + Dynavector XV-1s or ANUK IO Gold > vdH The Grail or Kondo KSL-SFz + ANK L3 Phono 

Audio Note Kondo Ongaku > Avantgarde Duo Mezzo

Signal cables: Kondo Silver, Crystal Cable phono

Power cables: Kondo, Shunyata, van den Hul

system pics

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You could do that yourself...

 

Or your EMM Labs DAC could it for you. (The only difference in this case would stem from the the solution employed for the DSD128 up-conversion process: professional off-line Saracon software vs EMM Labs' FPGA-based implementation.)

 

It looks like for some reason the producers of this DSD download decided to introduce two extra steps (D/A and A/D conversion), and used single-rate DSD conversion, as opposed to the current DSD 5.6MHz at which rate most today's DSD ADCs operate.

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Not sure I follow... You mean 192/24=>analog tape=>all digital formats (including back to 192/24)?

 

If this is what you mean, well, it would seem a bit convoluted unless there's a belief in the production/engineering team that going to analog results in an improvement, an euphonic filtering. Surely the two will sound different.

 

- Yep, that's what I mean.

 

- Yes, it definitely would be convoluted, and would sound different. On the other hand, going to analog is also more convoluted and will also make a difference in sound for all other resolutions, versus digital-to-digital conversion. I'm simply thinking that could have been what they decided to do to produce all downloads, not making an exception for the 192/24, even though they didn't have to since the original 192/24 was already available.

 

The reason I'm asking is I'd strongly consider buying the 192/24 if indeed it's the original, but since the SACD I've purchased is already on the way I definitely would not purchase the 192/24 if it is simply another conversion.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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- Yep, that's what I mean.

 

- Yes, it definitely would be convoluted, and would sound different. On the other hand, going to analog is also more convoluted and will also make a difference in sound for all other resolutions, versus digital-to-digital conversion. I'm simply thinking that could have been what they decided to do to produce all downloads, not making an exception for the 192/24, even though they didn't have to since the original 192/24 was already available.

 

The reason I'm asking is I'd strongly consider buying the 192/24 if indeed it's the original, but since the SACD I've purchased is already on the way I definitely would not purchase the 192/24 if it is simply another conversion.

 

Jud, don't you think that if it was recorded on 15ips tape, what we are really expecting from high resolution besides the new mix?

--

Krzysztof Maj

http://mkrzych.wordpress.com/

"Music is the highest form of art. It is also the most noble. It is human emotion, captured, crystallised, encased… and then passed on to others." - By Ken Ishiwata

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What for? to shift potential noise away from the audible range? Disputing.

 

Yes, filtering at 128fs is easier for DSD DACs and many of them are optimized for such. Take note that EMM Labs DSD converters, for instance, use the very SDM rate internally.

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Jud, don't you think that if it was recorded on 15ips tape, what we are really expecting from high resolution besides the new mix?

 

Hi Krzysztof. Of course you are correct, but I am looking at this from a slightly different point of view, which is this:

 

You, I, and everyone else here have heard excellent sounding music that was originally recorded to 15ips tape. Let's say Amused to Death, for something recorded to 15ips tape, sounds pretty good. (It looks from the DR numbers that some degree of care was taken, for example it was not terribly compressed.)

 

Then the question for me becomes, do I prefer to listen to the initial conversion from this 15ips recording to digital, or would I prefer to listen to something that has been converted from the 15ips recording to digital, back to analog, and back to digital again?

 

I think I might prefer the file with a couple fewer processing steps, so if that's available, I would take a chance on buying it.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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Hi Krzysztof. Of course you are correct, but I am looking at this from a slightly different point of view, which is this:

 

You, I, and everyone else here have heard excellent sounding music that was originally recorded to 15ips tape. Let's say Amused to Death, for something recorded to 15ips tape, sounds pretty good. (It looks from the DR numbers that some degree of care was taken, for example it was not terribly compressed.)

 

Then the question for me becomes, do I prefer to listen to the initial conversion from this 15ips recording to digital, or would I prefer to listen to something that has been converted from the 15ips recording to digital, back to analog, and back to digital again?

 

I think I might prefer the file with a couple fewer processing steps, so if that's available, I would take a chance on buying it.

 

Ditto!

--

Krzysztof Maj

http://mkrzych.wordpress.com/

"Music is the highest form of art. It is also the most noble. It is human emotion, captured, crystallised, encased… and then passed on to others." - By Ken Ishiwata

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- Yep, that's what I mean.

 

- Yes, it definitely would be convoluted, and would sound different. On the other hand, going to analog is also more convoluted and will also make a difference in sound for all other resolutions, versus digital-to-digital conversion. I'm simply thinking that could have been what they decided to do to produce all downloads, not making an exception for the 192/24, even though they didn't have to since the original 192/24 was already available.

 

The reason I'm asking is I'd strongly consider buying the 192/24 if indeed it's the original, but since the SACD I've purchased is already on the way I definitely would not purchase the 192/24 if it is simply another conversion.

Got it. Agreed.

 

Now I really want to know the exact process this went through!!!

 

How can we find out for sure?

 

@Chris: Any desire to prod your sources?

NUC10i7 + Roon ROCK > dCS Rossini APEX DAC + dCS Rossini Master Clock 

SME 20/3 + SME V + Dynavector XV-1s or ANUK IO Gold > vdH The Grail or Kondo KSL-SFz + ANK L3 Phono 

Audio Note Kondo Ongaku > Avantgarde Duo Mezzo

Signal cables: Kondo Silver, Crystal Cable phono

Power cables: Kondo, Shunyata, van den Hul

system pics

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Or your EMM Labs DAC could it for you. (The only difference in this case would stem from the the solution employed for the DSD128 up-conversion process: professional off-line Saracon software vs EMM Labs' FPGA-based implementation.)

 

It looks like for some reason the producers of this DSD download decided to introduce two extra steps (D/A and A/D conversion), and used single-rate DSD conversion, as opposed to the current DSD 5.6MHz at which rate most today's DSD ADCs operate.

Ha! True about the DAC - it would take a 192/24 and transcode it to DSD128 internally.

 

We are still in the dark as to the exact method used to produce the final files though.

NUC10i7 + Roon ROCK > dCS Rossini APEX DAC + dCS Rossini Master Clock 

SME 20/3 + SME V + Dynavector XV-1s or ANUK IO Gold > vdH The Grail or Kondo KSL-SFz + ANK L3 Phono 

Audio Note Kondo Ongaku > Avantgarde Duo Mezzo

Signal cables: Kondo Silver, Crystal Cable phono

Power cables: Kondo, Shunyata, van den Hul

system pics

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Hi Krzysztof. Of course you are correct, but I am looking at this from a slightly different point of view, which is this:

 

You, I, and everyone else here have heard excellent sounding music that was originally recorded to 15ips tape. Let's say Amused to Death, for something recorded to 15ips tape, sounds pretty good. (It looks from the DR numbers that some degree of care was taken, for example it was not terribly compressed.)

 

Then the question for me becomes, do I prefer to listen to the initial conversion from this 15ips recording to digital, or would I prefer to listen to something that has been converted from the 15ips recording to digital, back to analog, and back to digital again?

 

I think I might prefer the file with a couple fewer processing steps, so if that's available, I would take a chance on buying it.

 

+1.4142

NUC10i7 + Roon ROCK > dCS Rossini APEX DAC + dCS Rossini Master Clock 

SME 20/3 + SME V + Dynavector XV-1s or ANUK IO Gold > vdH The Grail or Kondo KSL-SFz + ANK L3 Phono 

Audio Note Kondo Ongaku > Avantgarde Duo Mezzo

Signal cables: Kondo Silver, Crystal Cable phono

Power cables: Kondo, Shunyata, van den Hul

system pics

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My question to all of you.

 

Is it possible that they did everything in the digital realm, transferred to tape and then back to the digital realm and that what they are selling is all from the transfer back, i.e. the 24/192 is not from the transfer before, but from the transfer after and that second transfer was to DSD.

 

So Confused,

 

Dave

Crystal Clear Music Tweaked Mac Mini / Yosemite -> JRiver 22 -> Ayre QB9DSD -> Bryston BP26DA -> Bryston 4BSST2 -> B&W 802Di | Transparent Reference XLRs, Transparent Super Speaker Cable, Maple Shade USB cable

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My question to all of you.

 

Is it possible that they did everything in the digital realm, transferred to tape and then back to the digital realm and that what they are selling is all from the transfer back, i.e. the 24/192 is not from the transfer before, but from the transfer after and that second transfer was to DSD.

 

So Confused,

 

Dave

 

possible, everyone want to mąkę money, that was the reason I've bought it in PCM, as it was recorded in PCM ;-)

--

Krzysztof Maj

http://mkrzych.wordpress.com/

"Music is the highest form of art. It is also the most noble. It is human emotion, captured, crystallised, encased… and then passed on to others." - By Ken Ishiwata

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Analog doesn't equal tape. Going from digital to an analog console then to another digital format is a popular way to do things. The Pearl Jam high resolution shows are done this way.

 

Never the same as master tape. We should always be to the closest transfer as possible. High resolution means nothing if misunderstood.

--

Krzysztof Maj

http://mkrzych.wordpress.com/

"Music is the highest form of art. It is also the most noble. It is human emotion, captured, crystallised, encased… and then passed on to others." - By Ken Ishiwata

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Jud or anyone else, where did any of you read that 15 ips (or any ips) tape was involved in the production of this album?

Mea-culpa...

 

I mentioned 15ips - my understanding is this is the most common high res tape speed in studios. I ventured that if the master was analog (from Chris's AS friend's comment) it would be 15ips tape, and I think this is where it started getting labeled as such.

 

Jud's hypothesis was maybe an intermediate analog step was taken, ie 192/24=>analog=>encoded versions. In such a case making the analog step a 15ips tape would likely give it the most "analog sound", I would think.

 

But what do I know really??? Not mucho. I'm just uninformedly speculating to be honest.

 

I do want to know the exact process at this point! We must find out! :)

NUC10i7 + Roon ROCK > dCS Rossini APEX DAC + dCS Rossini Master Clock 

SME 20/3 + SME V + Dynavector XV-1s or ANUK IO Gold > vdH The Grail or Kondo KSL-SFz + ANK L3 Phono 

Audio Note Kondo Ongaku > Avantgarde Duo Mezzo

Signal cables: Kondo Silver, Crystal Cable phono

Power cables: Kondo, Shunyata, van den Hul

system pics

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Analog doesn't equal tape. Going from digital to an analog console then to another digital format is a popular way to do things. The Pearl Jam high resolution shows are done this way.

On purpose to "capture the analog"? Or is there some processing, like an analog distortion add-on, that is best done in analog?

NUC10i7 + Roon ROCK > dCS Rossini APEX DAC + dCS Rossini Master Clock 

SME 20/3 + SME V + Dynavector XV-1s or ANUK IO Gold > vdH The Grail or Kondo KSL-SFz + ANK L3 Phono 

Audio Note Kondo Ongaku > Avantgarde Duo Mezzo

Signal cables: Kondo Silver, Crystal Cable phono

Power cables: Kondo, Shunyata, van den Hul

system pics

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On purpose to "capture the analog"? Or is there some processing, like an analog distortion add-on, that is best done in analog?

 

The original recording is often made in digital, but it's mixed on a professional analog mixing console, like this one here: Abbey Road Studios at 80 (photos) - Page 9 - CNET The fact that many artists and engineers opt for this type of workflow indicates that they still prefer the SOTA analog boards to those with PCM DIGITAL processing.

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Jud's hypothesis was maybe an intermediate analog step was taken, ie 192/24=>analog=>encoded versions. In such a case making the analog step a 15ips tape would likely give it the most "analog sound", I would think.

 

I think we've got an echo chamber effect going on in the thread. I thought Chris said he was told by an AS source that there was an intermediate analog step between the DSD and 192/24 master. Also, separately, I thought Chris was informed all downloads came from the same analog origin. So I was speculating whether or not that meant an intermediate analog step for 192/24, same as DSD.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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