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Hip Hop artists know more words...


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Eloise

---

...in my opinion / experience...

While I agree "Everything may matter" working out what actually affects the sound is a trickier thing.

And I agree "Trust your ears" but equally don't allow them to fool you - trust them with a bit of skepticism.

keep your mind open... But mind your brain doesn't fall out.

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Interesting! Of course I am not at all sure that this:

Let's get lost tonight

You could be my black Kate Moss tonight

Play secretary, I'm the boss tonight

And you don't give a fuck what they all say right?

Awesome, the Christian and Christian Dior

Damn, they don't make 'em like this anymore

I ask 'cause I'm not sure

Do anybody make real shit anymore?

Bow in the presence of greatness

'cause right now thou hast forsaken us

You should be honored by my lateness

That I would even show up to this fake shit

So go ahead go nuts go ape shit

Especially in my pastel on my bape shit

Act like you can't tell who made this

New gospel homie, take six, and take this, haters

 

at all compares to this:

 

Come gather 'round friends

And I'll tell you a tale

Of when the red iron pits ran empty

But the cardboard filled windows

And old men on the benches

Tell you now that the whole town is empty.

 

In the north end of town

My own children are grown

But I was raised on the other

In the wee hours of youth

May mother took sick

And I was brought up by my brother.

 

The iron ore poured

As the years passed the door

The drag lines an' the shovels they was a-humming

'Til one day my brother

Failed to come home

The same as my father before him.

 

Well a long winter's wait

From the window I watched

My friends they couldn't have been kinder

And my schooling was cut

As I quit in the spring

To marry John Thomas, a miner.

 

Oh the years passed again

And the givin' was good

With the lunch bucket filled every season

What with three babies born

The work was cut down

To a half a day's shift with no reason.

Then the shaft was soon shut

And more work was cut

And the fire in the air, it felt frozen

'Til a man come to speak

And he said in one week

That number eleven was closin'.

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

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This is classic stupidity by intelligent people. Reducing something to some lowest common denominator so it loses meaning. Context, as always, changes things.

 

The statistic "number of different words" means nothing in itself and doesn't prove anything.

 

Songwriting is a type of poetry, and one of the telltale characteristics of song writing that distinguishes it from some other forms of writing is that it often purposely uses few words, yet uses them in a way that allows the listeners to impart multiple meanings to the lyrics.

 

Some of the lyrics we find most powerful and meaningful are fairly simple, yet together with the music of the song, they become deep with different levels of meaning to different people at different times. That's one of the reasons they resonate with us.

 

Some of the best songwriting has simple language. That's part of what makes it great.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Well, I listened to the new Compton, appropriately enough, streamed through Apple. Fortunately, it was free. The critics were right. Dr. Dre delivered an abortion. It just totally sucks. Unbelievably bad. Straight out of Compton was not exactly easy listening, but I thought it had considerable merit. Maybe listening through those stupid headphones damaged his brain.

 

DrDre-compton.jpg

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This is classic stupidity by intelligent people. Reducing something to some lowest common denominator so it loses meaning. Context, as always, changes things.

 

The statistic "number of different words" means nothing in itself and doesn't prove anything.

 

Songwriting is a type of poetry, and one of the telltale characteristics of song writing that distinguishes it from some other forms of writing is that it often purposely uses few words, yet uses them in a way that allows the listeners to impart multiple meanings to the lyrics.

 

Some of the lyrics we find most powerful and meaningful are fairly simple, yet together with the music of the song, they become deep with different levels of meaning to different people at different times. That's one of the reasons they resonate with us.

 

Some of the best songwriting has simple language. That's part of what makes it great.

 

True, but there was a list recently of the average word length in recent popular songs. I think the worst offender had an average word length of something like 2.3 characters. I don't have to hear that song to know it just isn't my thing. Fortunately, pop and radio hits are meant for a very specific audience and are intentionally written to fade from memory quickly, so the next "big hit" can come out more quickly.

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Fortunately, pop and radio hits are meant for a very specific audience and are intentionally written to fade from memory quickly, so the next "big hit" can come out more quickly.

 

Is that from personal knowledge insider knowledge or just something "everybody knows?"

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

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Is that from personal knowledge insider knowledge or just something "everybody knows?"

 

Sorry, I should have tacked on an "IMO" at the end of that. In any case, it's been about 15 years since I took this class but we had a seminar-style class in college where each week, an expert in some field came in and talked to us. On one occasion we had either a composer or just an expert in classical music came in - my statement was a paraphrase of how he talked about popular music and how it's designed to be "simple" so we get attached to it more quickly than, say a complex classical piece. But, that simplicity makes it so we can only be attached to it for so long before we move on to something else. Basically the musical equivalent of crack cocaine, to use a very crass analogy.

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Sorry, I should have tacked on an "IMO" at the end of that. In any case, it's been about 15 years since I took this class but we had a seminar-style class in college where each week, an expert in some field came in and talked to us. On one occasion we had either a composer or just an expert in classical music came in - my statement was a paraphrase of how he talked about popular music and how it's designed to be "simple" so we get attached to it more quickly than, say a complex classical piece. But, that simplicity makes it so we can only be attached to it for so long before we move on to something else. Basically the musical equivalent of crack cocaine, to use a very crass analogy.

 

Yeah, I know what you mean. I used to listen to this really simple pop band called "The Beatles" but their music is simple and lacks staying power, never listen any more.

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Yeah, I know what you mean. I used to listen to this really simple pop band called "The Beatles" but their music is simple and lacks staying power, never listen any more.

 

A fair point, and you didn't need to be a dick about it but whatever, I guess some people can only get their point across through sarcasm and snark. With that said, would you go so far as to say both the Beatles and, say an artist like Kesha represent "pop" music equally in terms of staying power and talent? Or, might there be exceptions to everything, including the opinion of one anonymous non-expert sharing an opinion on a message board?

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Actually, I thinks it's more accurate to say rap artists generally use more words than their classic rock counterparts. That does not necessarily reflect the relative vocabulary knowledge between artists of the two musical genres.

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Stoopid rap lyrics:

 

In the 1970's

The OPEC nations began to dominate

The world's oil economy

In the 1980's, Japan became the world's

Number one economic power

 

In 1989 the nations of Eastern Europe

Attempted to restructure

While in the United States civil rights have

Collapsed at the hands of fundamentalists

And national insecurity's at an all time high

 

Exxon and on and on and on

The ministers of double speak

New meanin' of clean they tried to teach us

They staged the phoney shampoo of the Valdez greases

Completely jheri curled the beaches

 

Pipe bomb for the NAACP

And a hit on Salman Rushdie, the Berlin Wall comes down

And the U.S. cracks down on illegal aliens

Ban the freedom of choice for those wantin' abortion

And enforce capitol punishment

 

Twenty four hour radio ban

For indecency determined by the F.U.C.C.

Why are we so anesthetized to the lies?

Because we do it in our own lives

We believe all the things that we want to hear

But then we also love to criticize

 

Bail out the banks loan art to the churches

Satanic Reverses

Bail-out the banks loan art to the churches

Satanic Reverses

 

Bail out the banks loan art to the churches

Satanic Reverses

Bail out the banks loan art to the churches

Satanic Reverses

 

In 1992 the European economic community will reform

In 1997 the city of Hong Kong will become

A part of the People's Republic of China

In 1999, and this is no coincidence

The nation of Panama will control it's own canal

 

While in the United States

Civil rights have collapsed at the hands of Fundamentalists

And national insecurity's at an all time high

 

Helms said ban the photograph of the piss Christ

It's sacreligious not an art

While we all try to discern between our cup of tea

And what we call obscenity, the house's legislation

Ripped the phoney foundation off what we thought inherent

 

Sent Joey to the Supreme Court

'Cause he made a statement, they called it

Desecration of the symbol that was meant to represent

The freedom of so called choice and dissent

They almost had me believin' it, they were bleedin' him

 

He said, "Burn baby, burn"

'Til the street Samurai said to my face

That any flag that's worth a shit

Was woven from fire in the first place

 

Bail out the banks loan art to the churches

Satanic Reverses

Bail out the banks loan art to the churches

Satanic Reverses

 

Bail out the banks loan art to the churches

Satanic Reverses

Bail out the banks loan art to the churches

Satanic Reverses

 

Bail out the banks loan art to the churches

Satanic Reverses

Bail out the banks loan art to the churches

Satanic Reverses

 

Bail out the banks loan art to the churches

Satanic Reverses

Bail out the banks loan art to the churches

Satanic Reverses

 

 

and

 

It all seemed so idiotic all the accusations of unpatriotic

The fall we'll always remember, capitulating silence

Election November before the winter

Of the long hot summer

Somewhere in the desert

We raised the oil pressure

And waited for the weather

To get much better

For the new wind to blow in the storm

We tried to remember the history in the region

The French foreign legion, Imperialism,

Peter O'Toole and hate the Ayatollah

Were all we learned in school

Not that we gave Hussein five billion

Not of our new bed partner the Syrian

And of course no mention of the Palestine situation

It was amazing how they steamrolled

They said eighty percent approval

But there was no one that I knew polled

No one had a reason for being in the Gulf

We waited for congress to speak up illegal build up

But no one would wake up

Our representatives were Milli Vanilli's

For corporate Dallas Cowboy Beverly Hillbillies

With perfect timing

The politicians rhyming their sentiments

So nicely oil gold and sand

My sediments precisely....

We regretfully support the lunacy

I'm afraid there is no time for more scrutiny

National unity preserve our community

Teflon© election opportunities

Were in profundant abundance

 

On January second the Bush administration

Announced a recession had stricken

The Nation the highest quarterly

Earnings in ten years were posted

By Chevron©

Meanwhile a budget was placed in our hands

As the deadline in the sand came to an end

So much for the peace dividend

One billion a day is what we spent

And our grandchildren will pay for it 'til the end

When schools are unfunded

And kids don't get their diplomas

They get used for gun boat diplomacy

Disproportionately

Black or brown we see

Bullet catchers for the slave master

 

Then the conservatives called up reservists

To active service left families nervous

But more importantly broke nine hundred a month

But the check came late, army red tape you see,

This golden opportunity

We watched the tube and read the newspaper

The propaganda of the gas masked raper

Was the proper slander to whip up the hatred

 

The stage was lit and the lights were all faded

The pilots in night vision goggles Kuwaited and

Generals masturbated

'til the fifteenth two days later they invaded

Not a single T. V. Station expressed dissension or

Hardly made mention to the censorship of information

From our kinder and gentler nation

Blinder and mentaler retardation

Disorientation

The pilots said their bombs lit Baghdad

Like a Christmas tree

It was the Christian thing to do you see

They didn't mention any casualties

No distinction between the real

And the proxy

Only football analogies

 

We saw the bomb hole

We watched the Super Bowl

We saw the scud missile

We watched Bud© commercials

We saw the yellow ribbons

Saw pilots in prison

We never saw films of the dead... At eleven

Angela Davis addressed the spectators

And shouting above a rumbling generator said

If they insist on bringing us down

Then let's shut the whole country down

Marching through the downtown

A hundred thousand became participants

And we heard the drums of millions off in the distance

Rushing through the cities

Some of them did things that weren't so pretty

Most were there for primal scream therapy

News men concentrated

On the negative liked the jingoists more

Peaceful protesters ended up

On the cutting room floor

Nintendo© casualties of the ratings war

More bombs dropped than in World War ii

On in both Asian invasions, new world order persuasion,

Business as usual

For our nation

Could you imagine a hundred fifty thousand dead,

The city of Stockton

Coffins locked in when we clocked in... Not to mention

Civilians

The loss of life on both sides

Pushed the limits of resilience

The scent of blood in our nostrils

Fuel of the fossil land of apostle

The blackness that covered the sky was not the only thing

That brought a tear to the eye or

The taste of anger to the tongues

Of those too young to remember Vietnam

 

Is heroin better in a veteran's mind

Than the memory of the dying laying in a line

Is it the smell or the shadows heaving and weeping

That keeps the soldier from sleeping

As he sings the orphan's lullaby

When the soldiers put down their bayonets

The strings are chained to the marionettes

Emir of Kuwait gets back in his jet

We replace the dead with new cadets

Will we hate those who did the shelling

Or will we hate those who weren't willing to do the killing

When the leaders of the bald eagles come home to roost

Will we sing a song of praise and indebtedness

For our deliverance from evil

Or will we sing a song of sadness

For the dreaded debt this mess delivered us people.

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There is most certainly poetry in a lot of hip hop out there but I can only go on what I remember from the late 1990's. Mos Def, Talib Kweli, Common, etc... have very thought provoking, powerful lyrics. Then you have someone like Canibus who intentionally used some very complicated vocabulary but in a very rhythmic, fluid style that elevated his stuff from "showing off" to actually impressive talent.

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I thought hardcore had a better message than rap. Isn't that what it's all about, the message? They try to take a catchy tune, add a female vocal (sometimes quite good) then throw their crap rap into it, what's musical about the actual rap. Arggghhh, guess you can tell I'm not a fan.

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I thought hardcore had a better message than rap. Isn't that what it's all about, the message? They try to take a catchy tune, add a female vocal (sometimes quite good) then throw their crap rap into it, what's musical about the actual rap. Arggghhh, guess you can tell I'm not a fan.

 

It sounds like you are describing opera.

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Michael Franit and Spearhead

 

Not quite my taste, but it reminds me a lot of the music from _Hair_, just with a newer rougher twist on it. Then again, I do not think this came from Broadway either. :)

 

Of course, this has a LOT of words in it too, and is much more to my taste. They even RAP in German!

 

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

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^ no, no, no.

way too hard to rave to (though 'at', perhaps).

caution:

don’t adjust the stereo if you can’t make out all the lyrics,

just nod your head and go with the drop beats.

if you like it, google:

skrillex f*ck that lyrics

 

Oh my- it's raves we want huh?

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

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Stoopid rap lyrics:

 

 

 

and

 

 

I personally know that there are a lot of brotha's oh excuse me "African American" who are member's on this forum who like

rap music. When you apply to rap music as lacking intelligence or common sense you are taking a personal stab at those who

understand rap. Maybe you should of said rap is not your taste that is more acceptable to those who live and understand that

life style. There is one thing you need to know rap makes perfectly good sense to all the riders out there.

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When you deliberately take something out of context, and don't even bother to read what I have written earlier in this thread to see that the comment was transparently intended to be ironic., it makes you look like a knee-jerk idiot.

 

Read what I quoted, or better yet, listen. It is FAR more intelligent and offers FAR more analysis of political economy than you might typically get from (say) a CNN commentary.

 

Then try to be just a tad bit less obtuse.

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The number of words used is meaningless. It is all about the choice of words and how they are used to communicate. I'm sure Kanye West would disagree but, IMO, his name does not belong in the same sentence as that of Bob Dylan.

 

OTOH, Steve Earle once said, "Townes van Zandt is the best songwriter in the whole world and I'll stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table in my cowboy boots and say that". Upon hearing what Earle had said, Dylan replied with tongue in cheek, "I'd like to see him try. I ain't got no coffee table".

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True, but there was a list recently of the average word length in recent popular songs. I think the worst offender had an average word length of something like 2.3 characters. I don't have to hear that song to know it just isn't my thing.

 

So "To be or not to be" just ain't gonna cut it, eh? ;)

 

Not the length or complexity of the words, of course, but the ideas and images.

 

Favorite lyrics:

 

"Love is an angel, disguised as lust,

Here in our bed until the morning comes."

 

Not rap, though, so I guess it's a little OT.

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Just to clarify:

 

(1) NWA's Straight out of Compton had considerable merit and was among the most important albums at the time.

 

(2) The new Dr. Dre's Compton is a travesty by comparison (IMO).

 

(3) Quite possibly the most intelligent and informed political analyses I have heard anywhere are in The Disposable Heroes of Hiphoprisy's Hypocrisy is the Greatest Luxury and in the later Michael Franti's solo album Yell Fire (which in turn is a sound track to an excellent documentary movie I Know I'm Not Alone he and others produced when they visited Iraq and the Occupied Territories a few years after the 2003 invasion.)

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A fair point, and you didn't need to be a dick about it but whatever, I guess some people can only get their point across through sarcasm and snark. With that said, would you go so far as to say both the Beatles and, say an artist like Kesha represent "pop" music equally in terms of staying power and talent? Or, might there be exceptions to everything, including the opinion of one anonymous non-expert sharing an opinion on a message board?

 

I can't make any sense of your last sentence. I guess from the start of your post you don't think your opinion warranted sarcasm, but I beg to differ.

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