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Ornette Coleman and Sonny Rollins downloads - which one?


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Hello,

I'm looking for the best available downloads for Ornette's The Shape of Jazz to come and Sonny's Way Out West in stereo mixes. I am aware about the Bernie mixes/mastering of Gold CD's for Way Out West, but those are rather hard to find on the web. For Ornette I've found it on HDTracks (Stereo) and on highresaudio.com, but it doesn't say who mastered it/remixed.

 

Anyone could help? Ideally, those could be 24/96 files if any benefit.

--

Krzysztof Maj

http://mkrzych.wordpress.com/

"Music is the highest form of art. It is also the most noble. It is human emotion, captured, crystallised, encased… and then passed on to others." - By Ken Ishiwata

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The best "Way out west" (by far) that I've heard is the AP 45rpm 2LP version released ten years ago, mastered by Steve Hoffman and Kevin Gray.

 

They used the "dry" master tapes without reverb, whereas the AP SACD from 2002 (also available as a DSD download), mastered by Doug Sax, has some artificial reverb, which was either on the master Sax used or added by him to make it sound like the original LP. Without the reverb, the sound is much more realistic.

 

The MFSL CD from the early 80's also uses the dry master, but the sound is rather thin, probably due to the early generation digital converters.

 

So currently I know no digital version that comes close to the 45rpm LP.

Claude

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The best "Way out west" (by far) that I've heard is the AP 45rpm 2LP version released ten years ago, mastered by Steve Hoffman and Kevin Gray.

 

They used the "dry" master tapes without reverb, whereas the AP SACD from 2002 (also available as a DSD download), mastered by Doug Sax, has some artificial reverb, which was either on the master Sax used or added by him to make it sound like the original LP. Without the reverb, the sound is much more realistic.

 

The MFSL CD from the early 80's also uses the dry master, but the sound is rather thin, probably due to the early generation digital converters.

 

So currently I know no digital version that comes close to the 45rpm LP.

 

Pita! Thanks a lot, however I've found on Qobuz this: Beauty Is A Rare Thing- The Complete Atlantic Recordings (US Release) | Ornette Coleman*– Télécharger et écouter l'album and to my ears the sound and mix is rather very good - compared to the songs from Change of the Century album available in high resolution from HDTracks or highresaudio.com. No hole in the middle, vivid bass in the centre and not too loud.

 

I've also RIP of Shape of Jazz to Come and it says that's CD mastering is by Stephen Innocenzi, don't know what mixes, but sound pretty decent.

--

Krzysztof Maj

http://mkrzych.wordpress.com/

"Music is the highest form of art. It is also the most noble. It is human emotion, captured, crystallised, encased… and then passed on to others." - By Ken Ishiwata

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I agree, the "Beauty is a rare thing" box sounds great. I don't think you can find better as far as CD is concerned

 

I bought the 2011 SHM-SACD of "The Shape of Jazz to Come", but was underwhelmed by the sound, compared to the box. It sounds slightly distant and clinical, doesn't have more detail or a better definition of the instruments.

 

SA-CD.net - Ornette Coleman: The Shape of Jazz to Come

 

The Warner Japan SACDs are generally not known to have great mastering (they are probably PCM-sourced, some just recycle a DVD-A mastering made 10 years ago)

 

There is also a more recent SACD version by ORG music, but I didn't get it because it's expensive and I've been disappointed with their SACD of Sonny Rollins "The Bridge" (compared to the 2003 CD which I think is a new remix from the 3-track tapes, whereas Org used the old stereo mixdown tape)

 

SA-CD.net - Ornette Coleman: The Shape of Jazz to Come

Claude

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Pita! Thanks a lot, however I've found on Qobuz this: Beauty Is A Rare Thing- The Complete Atlantic Recordings (US Release) | Ornette Coleman*– Télécharger et écouter l'album and to my ears the sound and mix is rather very good - compared to the songs from Change of the Century album available in high resolution from HDTracks or highresaudio.com. No hole in the middle, vivid bass in the centre and not too loud.

 

I have this CD box for many years, it sounded very well on my CD player. Never listened to rips though...)

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Shape of Jazz to come: I have the HDT 24/192 Rhino Stereo 2013: sounds very good to me.

Main listening (small home office):

Main setup: Surge protector +_iFi  AC iPurifiers >Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Conditioning+Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three >GIK Room Treatments.

Secondary Listening: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Matrix Element i Streamer/DAC (XLR)+Schiit Freya>Kii Three .

Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup.
Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. 

All absolute statements about audio are false :)

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I have this CD box for many years, it sounded very well on my CD player. Never listened to rips though...)

 

:-) BTW, do you know if there was any reissues for this box set, since on some webpages I can see 2015 on some 2005, so wondering if it's the same mastering from the initial release.

--

Krzysztof Maj

http://mkrzych.wordpress.com/

"Music is the highest form of art. It is also the most noble. It is human emotion, captured, crystallised, encased… and then passed on to others." - By Ken Ishiwata

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at the moment XRCD is best digital version I believe

 

This one: Sonny Rollins - Way out West CD Album XRCD is not always the best choice, I have some on my side with clippings and close miking.

--

Krzysztof Maj

http://mkrzych.wordpress.com/

"Music is the highest form of art. It is also the most noble. It is human emotion, captured, crystallised, encased… and then passed on to others." - By Ken Ishiwata

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Slavo probably means the early XRCDs, which were mastered by Alan Yoshida and usually sound fantastic. I haven't heard it

 

http://www.discogs.com/Sonny-Rollins-Way-Out-West/release/1712497

 

If so, rather rare thing to find. Another could be 1993 Analogue Productions CAPJS 008 gold disk, mastered by Doug Sax, but it's also very rare.

 

XRCD version has pretty nice dynamic range: http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/view/19226, but true peak level rather high touching 0dB, which in truth could be even higher causing clippings.

--

Krzysztof Maj

http://mkrzych.wordpress.com/

"Music is the highest form of art. It is also the most noble. It is human emotion, captured, crystallised, encased… and then passed on to others." - By Ken Ishiwata

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:-) BTW, do you know if there was any reissues for this box set, since on some webpages I can see 2015 on some 2005, so wondering if it's the same mastering from the initial release.

 

My box has publishing date 1993, I bought it in late 90s, I guess... Funny thing, I didn't play it for years, as hundreds and hundreds of other CDs, my Jadis CD player is standing on a shelf disconnected. Computer music takes its toll.

 

IMG_4856.jpg

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I still play CDs, but with box sets like the Ornette, I prefer to play files because sessions tend to be spread over two CDs. I rather listen to one session than one CD at a time.

 

The box set was indeed released in 1993, and not remastered later IMHO.

 

Unlike the John Coltrane Atlantic material, which was released on HDtracks as individual albums and then later as the "Heavyweight Champion" box set, originally released in 1995.

Claude

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OFF TOPIC, but doing my searching for Ornette and Sonny, I have found The Bridge by Sonny Rollins with old mastering done by Marc Wilder for Bluebird/RCA here: The Bridge | Sonny Rollins*– Télécharger et écouter l'album Stunning sound and to my ears much better than recent high resolution offers! Check it out on your own!

 

P.S. Interesting that sometimes recent masters and mixes are not better than the old ones, ofter worst!

--

Krzysztof Maj

http://mkrzych.wordpress.com/

"Music is the highest form of art. It is also the most noble. It is human emotion, captured, crystallised, encased… and then passed on to others." - By Ken Ishiwata

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I bought that version of The Bridge on CD last year after searching the net and seeing reports that it was a good sounding version. At the time it was available from Amazon for a good price. It does sound quite good. I didn't mention it b/c it was "OT".

 

I find it interesting that you prefer it to the hi-res, which looks like it was sourced from the recent SACD/DSD that people seem to like.

 

Is the hi-res clearly from a newer/different master?

 

Yes, sometimes the newer remasters aren't an improvement on older ones.

Main listening (small home office):

Main setup: Surge protector +_iFi  AC iPurifiers >Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Conditioning+Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three >GIK Room Treatments.

Secondary Listening: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Matrix Element i Streamer/DAC (XLR)+Schiit Freya>Kii Three .

Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup.
Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. 

All absolute statements about audio are false :)

Link to comment

 

Is the hi-res clearly from a newer/different master?

 

Don't really know, but hdtracks offer is from 2013 in 24/88 and 24/176 which could be SACD sourced and highresaudio.com has it in 24/44 from 2014 (provenance suspicious). Both do not sound so warm and smooth as the CD version mastered by Mark.

--

Krzysztof Maj

http://mkrzych.wordpress.com/

"Music is the highest form of art. It is also the most noble. It is human emotion, captured, crystallised, encased… and then passed on to others." - By Ken Ishiwata

Link to comment
I bought that version of The Bridge on CD last year after searching the net and seeing reports that it was a good sounding version. At the time it was available from Amazon for a good price. It does sound quite good. I didn't mention it b/c it was "OT".

 

I find it interesting that you prefer it to the hi-res, which looks like it was sourced from the recent SACD/DSD that people seem to like.

 

Is the hi-res clearly from a newer/different master?

 

Yes, sometimes the newer remasters aren't an improvement on older ones.

 

I think the Org Music SACD sounds very good, but I prefer the 2003 CD.

 

When I bought the CD, I thought I read something about the CD having been remixed from the original 3-track tape (while the SACD and most other reissues are made from the stereo mixdown tape, which is a tape generation away from the original). Unfortunately I can't find that information anywhere now (despite googling like mad), and the CD booklet does not state it either. Like Columbia, RCA used to record to 3-track tape in the early 60's.

 

But IMHO the CD has more clarity than the SACD, and that is not due to boosted treble or some other cheap mastering trick. So I'm still convinced that it is from a different source, but I can't find any official information on that.

Claude

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I think the Org Music SACD sounds vey good, but I prefer the 2003 CD.

 

When I bought the CD, I thought I read something about the CD having been remixed from the original 3-track tape (while the SACD and most other reissues are made from the stereo mixdown tape, which is a tape generation away from the original). Unfortunately I can't find that information anywhere now (despite googling like mad), and the CD booklet does not state it either. Like Columbia, RCA used to record to 3-track tape in the early 60's.

 

But IMHO the CD has more clarity than the SACD, and that is not due to boosted treble or some other cheap mastering trick. So I'm still convinced that it is from a different source, but I can't find any official information on that.

 

Yes, I know that's hard to find this kind of information. I found Way Out West on qobuz here: Way Out West | Sonny Rollins*– Télécharger et écouter l'album also without any info what is the provenance of the files - jeez!

According to the year 2010 it could be Original Jazz Remasters serie mastered by Joe Tarantino: http://www.discogs.com/Sonny-Rollins-Way-Out-West/release/3458965. Just my guess, but the sound is pretty nice, maybe too much reverb for the sax.

 

BTW, nice thread here: http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/how-are-the-cds-from-the-original-jazz-classics-remasters-series.229418/

 

..and article: http://www.soundstagehifi.com/index.php/feature-articles/on-music/556-a-visit-with-mastering-engineer-joe-tarantino

--

Krzysztof Maj

http://mkrzych.wordpress.com/

"Music is the highest form of art. It is also the most noble. It is human emotion, captured, crystallised, encased… and then passed on to others." - By Ken Ishiwata

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The CD I'm referring to is the "Bluebird first Edition" reissue, mastered by Mark Wilder. There are many CD versions of this album

 

http://www.discogs.com/Sonny-Rollins-The-Bridge/release/2328016

 

Yes, I think it's the same as I found on Qobuz. Sounds superb! According to the scans found on the net it was released in 2003 in EU I guess:

 

00341ac4.jpeg

--

Krzysztof Maj

http://mkrzych.wordpress.com/

"Music is the highest form of art. It is also the most noble. It is human emotion, captured, crystallised, encased… and then passed on to others." - By Ken Ishiwata

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