Vibration isolating rollerballs

[Jud]

I would suspect that the ball would spend all of it's time resting against the lip, wherever slight mis-leveling leads it. Thus we still have a curvature, just not a stable one.*

 

I don't recall hearing about any evidence of anything more then invisible micro-motions in the roller systems (other then the usual conjecture). That is, once the device is setup and stabilizes.

 

 

* I just had to 'level' my Mini/DAC support, as it continually wanted to slide off to the left-front, and had to be restrained by a chunk of foam. By adding a 3"x3"x1" steel block I managed to level the components over the air bladder, and then the residual friction of the rollers (bottom bowl, flat top), and cabling allowed me to get the top support plate centered.

 

It does seem to me mis-leveling (static) or vibration of the drivers (dynamic) would continually act to push each ball to a lip, at which point:

 

- You've got at least two points of contact (flat surface and lip); and

 

- You've got no freedom of movement.

 

This would be either a stable configuration (if due to mis-leveling) or unstable but subject to repetition (if due to motion induced by speaker drivers).

 

With a bowl, you'd have:

 

- One point of contact; and

 

- Possible movement with some degree of restriction depending on the degree of curvature of the bowl.

 

This would be a stable configuration unless subject to greater mis-leveling than would be the case with a flat surface. The potential for movement can also be "tuned" as people are discussing with respect to ball size, bowl curvature, and pendulum motion/resonance.

 

Edit: Ah, jabbr, thanks for reminding me - I'll post future responses, if any at all, in the other thread.

[YashN]

Have you ever wondered why you are such an argumentative little bugger?

 

Indeed I am argumentative, but I don't need to 'wonder why', I know why: it allows me to detect the bullshitters from the people who have actual knowledge, and then in the case my lack of knowledge is corrected by the latter, I don't get worked up at all and accuse them of unfriendliness or lack of civility: I learn something valuable from them and I thank them for it.

 

Confronting good arguments and facts is a healthy way of increasing one's knowledge about the world.

 

Learning is a win for me, but not for some others I can see here: easier for them to make baseless accusations instead of referring to the facts.

 

I'd rather be an argumentative and learning bugger than an ignorant bugger.

 

Why are you still replying to me?

[YashN]

Yash,

 

I didn't mean to fork the discussion off your original thread where there's alot of great information and debate going on. I think I didn't name this thread properly, and regret that, as it was intended to be a group buy type thread for people interested in obtaining aluminum bowls at reasonable prices. I never intended that this be the only isolation technique, nor even that it is the "very best obtainable" rather something simple and practical for a group of people who wish to get some at a reasonable price.

 

I would prefer that the excellent discussion of new isolation techniques, and research into improved isolation techniques, continue to take place on your original thread. That's where I'm trying to post more theoretical responses. This has been a great and productive discussion.

 

Indeed, jabbr, I agree. The other thread and discussions about the theory and implementation are better there. Didn't mean to derail your thread, but saw blatant misunderstandings that needed correction.

 

See you there.

[kumakuma]

Indeed I am argumentative, but I don't need to 'wonder why', I know why: it allows me to detect the bullshitters from the people who have actual knowledge, and then in the case my lack of knowledge is corrected by the latter, I don't get worked up at all and accuse them of unfriendliness or lack of civility: I learn something valuable from them and I thank them for it.

 

Confronting good arguments and facts is a healthy way of increasing one's knowledge about the world.

 

Learning is a win for me, but not for some others I can see here: easier for them to make baseless accusations instead of referring to the facts.

 

I'd rather be an argumentative and learning bugger than an ignorant bugger.

 

Why are you still replying to me?

 

Unfortunately the way you conduct yourself also means that a lot of folks who could help you increase your "knowledge about the world" want nothing to do with you.

[groovybassist]

YashN:

 

First off, this thread is intended to be for the group buy, not re-engineering the wheel.

 

You are right, I haven't contributed to this isolation discussion as I have no background with which to do so. What I also haven't contributed is douche-baggery, which I will freely acknowledge you've contributed a ton of.

[Daudio]

I think you bailed out quite early of the original thread because you had 'difficulty following me' or maybe the rest of the thread, including the more sound theoretical and modeling aspects...

By your own admission, you have difficulty 'following me', but that doesn't mean what I write or do is without value, just that it's difficult for you to understand...

 

I had/have difficulty following you because you switched from one subject to the next so fast and furiously, there wasn't any point in trying to 'follow you'. I didn't see how there could be much depth, with that little attention to any one thing ?

 

Plus, I'm sure I've made it quite clear that I'm focused on only the roller block type devices, and in more of a actually implementable improvement respect.

 

 

you probably would also have seen a post by John Swenson saying there could be merit in a mostly flat surface...

This is the reason why you hadn't yet understood that the ball being centered or the ball being brought back to the center by gravity isn't necessary for proper isolation...

 

Well then, you haven't been paying attention. Yes, I did initially think that the curvature interaction was part of the isolation process. But I learned and evolved, and that is evident in my later questions and writings.

 

The fact that you use that to slur me (as you have others) doesn't do your reputation any good at all. Are you consciously trying to piss people off ? I have no idea why ?

 

 

The only thing primitive here are your understanding and accusations. I probably already made a lot more experiments and measures than you did.

 

Sorry, but a few furtive posts about marbles and bamboo, doesn't constitute advanced experimentation in my book (fully isolated system). I'd be happy to help you move that along (like my post with the bearing sources link), but not if you trash and disrespect me and other CA members I respect.

 

You are only shooting yourself in the foot with these angry, defensive posts

 

One last time; please chill out, and work with the forum members !

[Jabs1542]

It's worthwhile to explore, but it is not the single interesting modification. Many more have been discussed, and more than just the horizontal - there are 6 degrees of freedom in which vibration can act and which we need to isolate against ideally.

 

I'm having a hard time seeing rotation as part of this scheme, it seems like we should only be focused on translation which is 3 degrees of freedom - and in reality the ball and cup method are only looking at 2 degrees of freedom (horizontal displacement - fore/aft and left/right) though I have seen posts about air bladders and Euler springs for the 3rd degree of freedom (vertical).

[Superdad]

First off, this thread is intended to be for the group buy, not re-engineering the wheel.

 

Hey, I thought we were talking about engineering balls, not wheels!

[groovybassist]

Alex:

 

Just installed my Regen Amber board - cooking now. Back to engineering balls...

[jabbr]

Hey, I thought we were talking about engineering balls, not wheels!

 

Alex -- turns out that smooth & hard balls make the Amber sing a pretty tune!

[zerung]

YahN, due respect, your comments are disrespectful and in my opinion uncalled for.

With the design for the cup, you could turn the cup over and get the flat surface you want. This may even provide a better design as the disk may be solid and rigid enough with the cone reducing potential surface isolation between the table and the disc.

Barry, your views are appreciated. Will try and get my own mileage.

[Foggie]

You and I have a VERY different perspective on the facts. Try harder not to distort them.

 

Oh so right you are! Very different.

 

See, most people that lead productive lives, know how to communicate with other human beings and manage conflict positively to find solutions. Kind of an ethics thing. I know, what a concept. Continue with your brute force approach, its really something to watch. Good luck!

[jabbr]

Indeed I am argumentative, but I don't need to 'wonder why', I know why: it allows me to detect the bullshitters from the people who have actual knowledge, and then in the case my lack of knowledge is corrected by the latter, I don't get worked up at all and accuse them of unfriendliness or lack of civility: I learn something valuable from them and I thank them for it.

 

Confronting good arguments and facts is a healthy way of increasing one's knowledge about the world.

 

Learning is a win for me, but not for some others I can see here: easier for them to make baseless accusations instead of referring to the facts.

 

I'd rather be an argumentative and learning bugger than an ignorant bugger.

 

Why are you still replying to me?

 

Peace out!

 

No one is going to die from a few stray vibrations:)

 

Look, Barry has been incredibly generous by sharing his well tested and vast experience. There is a lot to be learned from experience.

 

You are also doing a great job highlighting a bunch of important and oft overlooked issues. You have a lot of creativity and curiosity. Keep generating ideas, some will live, some will die. That's how things work. Don't take any of this personally. If one idea doesn't fly, then launch 10 others:) If someone will die from a bad idea then fight hard. This is all fun.

[jabbr]

I've just been informed that Ingress is no longer interested in making the aluminum bowls to what I consider a reasonable spec. The proverbial straw was that he doesn't want to "spend an hour" polishing each bowl. The initial picture I was shown looked rather rough. I've got a bunch of tungsten carbide, silicon carbide and silicon nitride balls on the way, as well as a set of porcelain dishes and bowls on order, so a few things to play around until we can find a good way to get these made.

 

Barry, I'm still willing to pay extra for low serial number, signed bowls -- not the ones with a hole down the middle though well maybe :)

[groovybassist]

That's unfortunate. Thanks for trying to set this up jabbr.

[InfernoSTi]

Thanks for your work on this, jabbr...

 

John

[AnotherSpin]

The proverbial straw was that he doesn't want to "spend an hour" polishing each bowl.

It is hard part - I did polishing myself after got bowls from machinist.

[4est]

I am not sure how to say this, but you are picking on the wrong man. Barry has been a very friendly and helpful poster here. A rarity it would seem, for one with his level of experience. You would be well served to be more polite.

Indeed I am argumentative, but I don't need to 'wonder why', I know why: it allows me to detect the bullshitters from the people who have actual knowledge, and then in the case my lack of knowledge is corrected by the latter, I don't get worked up at all and accuse them of unfriendliness or lack of civility: I learn something valuable from them and I thank them for it.

 

Confronting good arguments and facts is a healthy way of increasing one's knowledge about the world.

 

Learning is a win for me, but not for some others I can see here: easier for them to make baseless accusations instead of referring to the facts.

 

I'd rather be an argumentative and learning bugger than an ignorant bugger.

 

Why are you still replying to me?

[bdiament]

I've just been informed that Ingress is no longer interested in making the aluminum bowls to what I consider a reasonable spec. The proverbial straw was that he doesn't want to "spend an hour" polishing each bowl. The initial picture I was shown looked rather rough. I've got a bunch of tungsten carbide, silicon carbide and silicon nitride balls on the way, as well as a set of porcelain dishes and bowls on order, so a few things to play around until we can find a good way to get these made.

 

Barry, I'm still willing to pay extra for low serial number, signed bowls -- not the ones with a hole down the middle though well maybe :)

 

Hi j,

 

Don't give up! Speak with a few machinists. There may even be some that are web-based.

When I was first looking around for someone, I got some really silly quotes, including one for $450 per set of 3 *plus* a $75 "setup" charge.

Since I didn't feel like getting "set up" I just thanked them and went elsewhere, ultimately finding the machinist I chose to work with. (He has since relocated to another state.)

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

http://www.soundkeeperrecordings.wordpress.com

Barry Diament Audio

[Jabs1542]

Hi j,

 

Don't give up! Speak with a few machinists. There may even be some that are web-based.

When I was first looking around for someone, I got some really silly quotes, including one for $450 per set of 3 *plus* a $75 "setup" charge.

Since I didn't feel like getting "set up" I just thanked them and went elsewhere, ultimately finding the machinist I chose to work with. (He has since relocated to another state.)

 

You could try CNCZone and shop your project around. You could also make it more attractive by purchasing the bowls unpolished and doing the polishing yourself (this is the manual labor part).

 

I have a machine (Tormach PCNC 770) though I don't use it for production, I swore I would never turn the machine into a "job" that I dread. I made 2 sets of three using Barry's specs (he sent me a drawing), they worked quite well under my Klipsch Hereseys I have in the shop. It took me close to an hour to draw it up and program the CNC cutting paths (using CAM software), and then each bowl took close to two hours to mill (blank block to finished bowl) - finishing is very time consuming. The good thing is that setting up the job itself (fixture, etc.) was easy and highly repeatable (helps to have a nice straight right angle corner to index off of).

 

Tormach Personal CNC Mill - Page 2

[mayhem13]

If you folks want to try something that can also look very cool, try two pieces of 5/8" or thicker glass with the contacting pieces coated with glycerol which will act as a continuos bearing across the entire surface. You can also add a phosphorescent pigment to the glycerol and an LED lamp at the rear producing a distinct glow between the two layers.

 

When first assembling, some glycerol will be forced out of the sides but once it sits with the gear on top it will stabilize with cohesion within the liquid and not the glass.

[AnotherSpin]

If you folks want to try something that can also look very cool, try two pieces of 5/8" or thicker glass with the contacting pieces coated with glycerol which will act as a continuos bearing across the entire surface. You can also add a phosphorescent pigment to the glycerol and an LED lamp at the rear producing a distinct glow between the two layers.

 

When first assembling, some glycerol will be forced out of the sides but once it sits with the gear on top it will stabilize with cohesion within the liquid and not the glass.

Would you share a pics of working solution, please?

[YashN]

I am not sure how to say this, but you are picking on the wrong man. Barry has been a very friendly and helpful poster here.

 

I do not agree with you either.

[krass]

I do not agree with you either.

 

so much anger, so sad......

[InfernoSTi]

I would like to thank Barry for putting up with so much *noise* and still working hard to help folks out. The fact that he did a lot of work to make a practical solution that most folks can implement carries a lot more weight with me than someone who has a lot of untried theories that all seem largely impractical for most folks if they ever went from dreaming to reality.

 

And there is a funny thing about life: everything you know, someone taught you. The only reason we are having this discussion is because Barry taught us it was the right path to follow. I suppose those that disrespect their teachers are the ones who have the greatest problem with people not respecting them...that is ironic at best.

 

Sorry for all this, Barry, and thank you for all your help on my audio journey.

 

John