bdiament Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 As I understand, the question of design/measurements of bowls for group buy is open. In one of his posts in other thread Barry gave an idea of some measurements (not all) he used. I am sharing the design (everything is in mm) which I used for the bowls I have already for some time. It were machined before I saw those mentioned Barry's measurements (which I would use myself if I knew it then). But, Barry hinted he have some new ideas, maybe he will tell us more now... Anyway, let's discuss. [ATTACH=CONFIG]19531[/ATTACH] Hi Another Spin, (I'm sorry I don't recall your first name.) While I have some ideas, I have not tested them. Therefore, if I had to make more roller bearings for myself today, I'd use the shape I *know* provides great results, which is the bowl shape I mentioned in post #30 of the other thread and folks have quoted here in this thread (0.96" diameter, 1/8" deep at the center, with the overall shape being a section of a 2" diameter sphere). The key will be to polish the bowl to a high degree of smoothness. I also recommend 7075, although 6061 *can* work just fine too. I made prototypes of both and decided to use 7075 when I had all my others made. As to the idea of a flat "bowl", I say test whatever you want to test. I encourage this. That said, I wouldn't do it myself. I want a curved bowl. A flat surface will not develop the resonance we need, as the ball will just meander around it. I look forward to hearing of folks' experiences once they start "floating" their gear. Remember to place the rollers in the largest *equilateral* triangle that will fit under whatever is being isolated. Have fun! And, if your experience is anything like mine, be prepared to do a lot of smiling! Best regards, Barry Soundkeeper Recordings http://www.soundkeeperrecordings.wordpress.com Barry Diament Audio Link to comment
bdiament Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 There's no benefit for the purpose of isolation that the ball is kept centered. On a flat surface, it could still be off-center and the isolation would remain operational (and optimal). Hi YashN, I would very strongly caution against this. Wait 'til you actually do it. I say, on the contrary, there is no benefit to having a flat surface. The ball *must* be in a curved bowl if you want to set up the resonance that will result in the isolation. On a flat surface, the ball meanders, and nothing else happens. Try it and see. Best regards, Barry Soundkeeper Recordings http://www.soundkeeperrecordings.wordpress.com Barry Diament Audio Link to comment
bdiament Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 Won't happen if there is a curve at the very end. Hi YashN, With a flat surface, neither will isolation happen. The bowl is *necessary*. Try it and see. Best regards, Barry Soundkeeper Recordings http://www.soundkeeperrecordings.wordpress.com Barry Diament Audio Link to comment
bdiament Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 Hi Barry,the bowl shape is not necessary for the isolation to happen, however without it the system is like a pencil sitting on its point. If the system is not PERFECTLY level gravity will cause the top to just roll right off. The bowl shape adds some restoring force to keep the top centered. John S. Hi John, While I understand your point, as you said, in the absence of a perfectly level system, things will not work out so well. For all practical (as opposed to theoretical) purposes, I would consider the bowl necessary. I have always suggested *minimal* damping, but not zero damping. Just my perspective of course. As always, I suggest folks try things out and see/hear for themselves. Best regards, Barry Soundkeeper Recordings http://www.soundkeeperrecordings.wordpress.com Barry Diament Audio Link to comment
bdiament Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 On the contrary, it seems you misunderstand why the isolation happens. You should re-read John Swenson's thought experiment post on the other thread and do the thought experiment to see why. A flatter surface is more optimal for isolation in the horizontal plane. Hi YashN, In terms of understanding or misunderstanding, I can only offer what I've learned from experience and hope it is of use. I much prefer empirical data, i.e., direct experience, to theory. There are the theories being expounded and there is the practical, real-world reality. Once you move on to the latter, understanding of why isolation happens and when (and when not) in actual use with audio and video gear will dawn. If you read what John said, notice the mention of needing PERFECT leveling. Based on my experience, I believe even with perfect leveling there will be more issues but by all means, I would never tell you to not try what you might be interested in trying. If you've read my posts so far, you know I always suggest folks try things for themselves. Actually trying these things out will tell you more than I ever could. (Even in the post you quoted, I said "Try it and see.") Have fun! Best regards, Barry Soundkeeper Recordings http://www.soundkeeperrecordings.wordpress.com Barry Diament Audio Link to comment
bdiament Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 Go ahead and try it yourself: you've gone half-way by removing the upper cup. Remove the cup below and the isolation is further improved. Try it on smaller piece of equipment and set up some material it can 'roll' or 'fall' on to at extremes of motion, said material being of dimensions slightly smaller than the diameter of the balls... Hi YashN, You may have forgotten but while isolation may be new to you, I experimented with *all* of this well over a decade ago. That is how I arrived at what I decided to use. I'm at loss to figure out why you'd think I hadn't already been there and done that. No matter. In reality, you oscillate between repeating for others to try things and discouraging others from trying anything that is different from your own current setup, at least that's what I've noticed... This is not true. Perhaps that is what you inferred but the evidence of my posts would not support such an assertion. I made *recommendations* and even advised that certain approaches would not, in my opinion, work very well. That is not the same as discouraging others from trying. On the contrary. Always, always, I have said folks should *not* simply take my word for anything I report but should try things for themselves. Perhaps it is best if I just don't reply to your posts. In all honesty, the last few from you are feeling less than friendly. I hope you find the same joy I have found, however you decide to implement it. Good luck! Best regards, Barry Soundkeeper Recordings http://www.soundkeeperrecordings.wordpress.com Barry Diament Audio Link to comment
bdiament Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 If you think you've 'been there and done that', then it seems you have settled for a largely sub-optimal implementation. The last exchange where you keep speaking about your speakers where mine as different is what makes me say this. Your impression that it is the curvature of the bowl that makes the isolation is wrong. That is a simple fact, and having the wrong understanding of how it works may lead you to settle on a sub-optimal implementation. If someone not agreeing with you is what you call 'feeling less than friendly', then feel free to ignore what I told you, knowing that John Swenson said the same thing. The CA forum has an 'Ignore' feature. Use it. My, my, someone got out of the wrong side of the bed this morning, didn't they? 1. Curvature of the bowl doesn't make the isolation. Curvature of the bowl makes for *practical* (as opposed to theoretical) isolation. 2. I have no problem with disagreement. It is incivility that is the issue. Actually, it would seem *you* are the one with the problem regarding disagreement, evidenced by how quickly--and often--you've forgotten your manners. Again no matter. And given your previous posts, no surprise. I wish you happiness. And perhaps one day, if not knowledge, at least a modicum of maturity. My apologies to other readers of this thread. Barry Soundkeeper Recordings http://www.soundkeeperrecordings.wordpress.com Barry Diament Audio Link to comment
bdiament Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 deleted Some just don't deserve a response. We folks just don't seem to be able to "follow the physics" like someone who has given this deep thought for at least a couple of days and might actually try some of this out for real some time. Oy! Link to comment
bdiament Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 I've just been informed that Ingress is no longer interested in making the aluminum bowls to what I consider a reasonable spec. The proverbial straw was that he doesn't want to "spend an hour" polishing each bowl. The initial picture I was shown looked rather rough. I've got a bunch of tungsten carbide, silicon carbide and silicon nitride balls on the way, as well as a set of porcelain dishes and bowls on order, so a few things to play around until we can find a good way to get these made. Barry, I'm still willing to pay extra for low serial number, signed bowls -- not the ones with a hole down the middle though well maybe :) Hi j, Don't give up! Speak with a few machinists. There may even be some that are web-based. When I was first looking around for someone, I got some really silly quotes, including one for $450 per set of 3 *plus* a $75 "setup" charge. Since I didn't feel like getting "set up" I just thanked them and went elsewhere, ultimately finding the machinist I chose to work with. (He has since relocated to another state.) Best regards, Barry Soundkeeper Recordings http://www.soundkeeperrecordings.wordpress.com Barry Diament Audio Link to comment
bdiament Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 I would like to thank Barry for putting up with so much *noise* and still working hard to help folks out. The fact that he did a lot of work to make a practical solution that most folks can implement carries a lot more weight with me than someone who has a lot of untried theories that all seem largely impractical for most folks if they ever went from dreaming to reality. And there is a funny thing about life: everything you know, someone taught you. The only reason we are having this discussion is because Barry taught us it was the right path to follow. I suppose those that disrespect their teachers are the ones who have the greatest problem with people not respecting them...that is ironic at best. Sorry for all this, Barry, and thank you for all your help on my audio journey. John Hi John, Thank you for your kindness. (Thanks also to Foggie, Daudio, groovybassist, zeroing, 4est, and Tom.) To your point about someone having taught us what we know, in post #3 and #345 of the other thread, I named some names. From the latter: "With the caveats in mind that I noted at the end of Vibration control for better performance, I hope others get to enjoy what has had me smiling ever since I tried this. (I am grateful to those who discovered this before I did for sharing it: Max Townshend in his products and writings, Clark Johnsen in his writings, and "Bill" from the Audiophile Society, who brought that commercial product into a meeting and passed it around, arousing my skepticism, curiosity, subsequent testing, learning, and ultimately, joy.)" I think this is important. A shout out to Shannon Dickson too for that article on vibration in Stereophile, from so long ago. Best regards, Barry Soundkeeper Recordings http://www.soundkeeperrecordings.wordpress.com Barry Diament Audio Link to comment
bdiament Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 I'm working with Mike at Ingress. He is making a set for me, smoothed with Emory 320 and I will check it out. I'm not sure if a mirror polish is needed -- this may work well. Hi j, Try 'em out. In my experience though, the smoother the bowl (i.e., the easier the ball can move), the more effective the isolation. In other words, a high degree of smoothness is key. Best regards, Barry Soundkeeper Recordings http://www.soundkeeperrecordings.wordpress.com Barry Diament Audio Link to comment
bdiament Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 ...Thank you for your kindness. (Thanks also to Foggie, Daudio, groovybassist, zeroing, 4est, and Tom.)... My apologies for not double-checking that auto-correct. The name should say "zerung" (not "zeroing"). Best regards, Barry Soundkeeper Recordings http://www.soundkeeperrecordings.wordpress.com Barry Diament Audio Link to comment
bdiament Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 ...Has anyone thought about the fact these are more or less like filters. Meaning you can cascade them for twice the effect.... Hi Dennis, While they are indeed mechanical low-pass filters, unlike the electronic type, cascading them is not a good idea as it will result in *diminished* performance, not enhanced performance. At least that has been my experience -- I wouldn't want more than one "spring" in any single plane of motion. It seems that any additional "springs" prevent all the energy from going into moving the "main" spring, diluting the effects we use them for in the first place. Best regards, Barry Soundkeeper Recordings http://www.soundkeeperrecordings.wordpress.com Barry Diament Audio Link to comment
bdiament Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 Hi, guys, First time poster with related but off-thread-title question. Looking for direction. You guys are the right audience though, and I see that Mr Barry D has re-surfaced as well. Have read and re-read the related isolation threads and Soundkeeper stuff since 2013. Re the marble tiles, are there any threads discussing No- or Less-ringy marble tiles? My Home Depots have only one sample, which is about half-ringy as ceramic or porcelain. Flooring shops have small samples on backing boards, or "faux marble", which btw is dead but faux. And online, marble does not seem to be offered by type, flavor or characteristic resonance. Barry had once mentioned his preference for less-ringy marble. I am unable to pick uo any specifics on what type(s) work, or what name they go by commercially. Thanks in advance for any ideas. Hi chipl3, Resurfaced? Didn't know I'd submerged. ;-} Unfortunately, I don't know of any particular names or brands or types that work better than others. I have several in my system (large 18" x 18" x 1/2" under my subs and under the Maggies, medium size under the amps, smaller one under the ULN-8 converters). In each case, I just went to the Home Depot and spent some time in the tile aisle, gathering the smoothest ones of the size I was looking for, and then trying them one at a time. Trying them involved holding them up by the corner, between thumb and forefinger. While holding the tile near my ear, I'd rap on the center of it with a knuckle from the other hand. Then listen. A dull thunk is preferred to anything like a definite pitch. (Be prepared to get some funny looks from other shoppers.) Where the tile is going to be used makes a difference. Under something larger, like speakers or amps (all of mine do *not* have smooth bottoms), I'm also using a 1" maple ply "platform." The tile, with its smooth side facing down, sits on the roller bearing balls. The plywood goes atop the tile, and the component sits on the plywood. In these cases, the plywood provides additional "deadening" of the tile -- though I still sought out the deadest tile they had. For the converters, I'm using a sheet of felt atop the tile, before placing the device atop this. Here again, I still sought out the deadest tile they had. Of course other materials might work. I'm wary of sheets of metal -- good material for making bells. Experimentation is the key. I've had very good luck with tiles. Once you find a nice smooth (non-textured) one in the right size, the price is reasonable too. Hope this helps. Best regards, Barry Soundkeeper Recordings http://www.soundkeeperrecordings.wordpress.com Barry Diament Audio Link to comment
bdiament Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 I actually like Zeroing.....sounds apt'.Best Zeroing ;-} Best regards, Barry Soundkeeper Recordings http://www.soundkeeperrecordings.wordpress.com Barry Diament Audio Link to comment
bdiament Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 Foggie, Your bowls blocks look very nice ! What is the diameter of the curvature ? Hi Dave, Those are my Hip Joints design. The bowl shape is described in post #30 at http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f8-general-forum/equipment-isolation-and-vibration-damping-24805/index2.html Best regards, Barry Soundkeeper Recordings http://www.soundkeeperrecordings.wordpress.com Barry Diament Audio Link to comment
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