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UpTone Audio REGEN Power Supply Add-On


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IF it's only on the output side of the SMPS, I can't see how it can do too much about the RF/EMI that this and most other consumer grade SMPS plugpacks dump back into the AC mains supply.

 

You are right SandyK. And while SMPS dump high frequency noise back into the mains, most all conventional linear supplies (transformer/diodes/caps/regulator) put a lot of low frequency spikes back into the AC and flatten the sine wave a bit too. (Our big choke-filtered JS-2 does not do so--at least not the spike part for sure, I forgot what John told me about top of sine draw with it.)

 

So yes, the mystery PS product in development--whose primary purpose is to provide very clean and isolated DC to the REGEN (with a switch for 5V out too)--will not, if itself powered by an SMPS (7.5-12V/2A min.), address the issue of what that SMPS dumps back into the house line.

 

So for those people who have a system sensitive to all SMPS, there will be THIRD product, a rather radical little linear, just for feeding the new PS--that draws current through the whole cycle and does not affect the mains at all. Inspiration on some kooky-clever, never before done way of doing this came to John during a 3-hour phone session we had Friday night.

 

Sorry to be vague, but once again, another never before done (for any PS, audio or otherwise AFAIK) concept came from his amazing brain and is the sort of valuable IP that we don't want to talk about until we put it in a product for all to see/hear. Spelling out the concept means spelling out the circuits--not a wise business practice.

[Though we did have a long talk about making some other designs public for both DIY and OEM licensing. Some of what we will be doing in the next year with power supplies is really bigger than just ourselves, and selling some core enabling circuits for this to be scaled in a multitude of ways makes good sense. While a whole line of products can come from this--enough to consume the energies (pardon the pun) of a small firm--we have broader plans and we can neither keep these power things entirely to ourselves, nor do we want to. So circuit licensing and boards may be the best release valve that does not just give everything away for free nor wait for others to copy.]

 

Of course with nothing announced and shown, all the above might just sound like blowhard posturing so I don't expect anyone to believe or understand the magnitude of the impact I think some of these innovations could have on power supply thinking and practice across the audio equipment spectrum.

 

We knew in advance that the REGEN was going to do what we expected, and before selling it I did not make over-the-top claims (in fact I tried to keep user expectations low because I was not sure if others would hear what we heard in our own systems). And we all know how that story turned out.

 

So regardless of the sonic benefits of what we are working on (heck, neither John or I have even heard it yet, he is just sending off for the prototype boards to be made), I promise you that the concepts and execution are 100% unique and most everyone will say WTF with a big grin. ;)

 

Needless to say, it is a VERY exciting time for John and me. And we are grateful to all the REGEN and JS-2 buyers making possible the development and production of more terrific toys to take your audio systems further. As I have said before, life is too short to bother putting our resources into something that does not make people go WOW. It is MUCH more fun to defy expectations and hit the ball "out of the park."

 

Good night.

--Alex C.

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Alex, you mentioned this new gizmo would accept up to 12V. Am curious to know whether it can input 12V and output 9V (or 7.5V) to the Regen (since I understand the Regen should not be connected to 12V if the DAC's USB input is not self-powered) ?

 

Yes, output from the device will be 7.5V regardless of the input voltage. (Actually, plan is to have output switchable to offer 5V too, just to widen possible sale audience and application beyond just the REGEN.)

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  • 2 weeks later...
Alex, can you give us some feel for the size and weight of the 1A power supply? Do you have a prototype board yet? Would it sit on the shelf right beside the REGEN or down on the floor next to the Mean Well SMPS?

 

Presently planned enclosure (from the same series case as the REGEN) is 4.375 inches x 4.375 inches x 1.125 inches (without whatever sort of feet I decide to stick on it). Don't know the weight yet.

 

Thinking that the cable provided (5.5mm x 2.1mm plugs both ends) will be 30 inches (76cm) long, but maybe we should go shorter. Actually have to decide on this fairly soon. Since there availability of decent gauge stock cables with 2.1mm plugs is pretty poor, I am planning to go ahead and have 1,000 made in China, and for that there is a lead time.

 

So people's input into a good compromise for DC cable length (between the new supply and the REGEN) would be welcome.

Would really like to do an 18awg twisted pair, but not sure if the houses that mold the DC plugs can handle that in their machines. The two choices seen out there are always zip cord or coax--and the latter usually in fairly fine gauge, though I do buy some 1meter 16awg coax with 2.5mm plugs from BixPower.com, so I know that some Chinese factory is doing cables with that.

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How about no DC cable, just a 2.1mm or 2.5mm socket?

 

That way we can each choose length and quality individually. I'm a freak for cryo'ed, silver DC cables and would rather have the option.

 

Yes, the device will have just two "sockets"-- both 5.5mm x 2.1mm jacks. But I have to supply some cable to plug in between it an the REGEN. The device will not radiate any EMI/RFI at all, so having it near audio components is not a problem.

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I vote for cable not longer than 20 inches and with angle connector at the USB REGEN side.

 

Angle connector is not required to supply REGEN connected with USB adapter to DAC, but angle connector is required to supply USB REGEN connected with USB adapter to the streamer (for those who uses two USB REGENS).

 

Yes, I could get behind a right-angle connector at one end.

And while I would love to keep the cable a short 20", I worry about complaints. We will try to make the case look nice (just simple silk-screening on the face with no LED, and both the 5.5mm x 2.1mm jacks on the back--maybe an LED there, have not decided), but some people may want to leave it hidden and a really short cable may prohibit that.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I suppose I must just have to learn to be patient.

 

Thanks for your patience. We are working hard on it every day. In fact John has laid out the production PCB before the prototype PCBs are even populated with parts for testing. He seems really motivated on this one! I can't wait to drop the bombshell about what this thing is about. ;)

But I want to have most everything lined up. So I'm guessing 90 days+.

 

Best,

--Alex C.

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Ohhhhhh

 

Wait, 90 days is 3 months. We are working towards trying to ship in October (ideally early in it). So make of that what you will. Really I should keep my trap shut. ;)

 

P.S. Our mailman just delivered the printed book version of Jason Stoddard's, "Schiit Happened" blog. I read all of it each week as he posted, but figured it would be fun to have on the shelf to revisit. First time around I did a lot of nodding as I read some of the funny stories since we had our share of adventure during the boom and bust of Hovland Company. Of course the world and market has changed a lot and now I'm doing direct-to-user business, so now some of what he writes is even more relevant. (The chapter on Amazon was quite an eye-opener.)

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Murphy's Law for sure. As for your PS - how about a version with female usb? (5v)

 

Thanks for the suggestion, but why would you want that?

 

If you are talking about using it with a split USB cable to feed a bus-powered DAC, it is never a good idea to use a split cable in that manner. Ground currents flow in weird ways if you do that and you risk frying your DAC's USB input (we have heard of many people doing just that). Those split cables are meant to have both of their 'A' ends plugged into the same computer/ground.

 

And anyone using a REGEN sure does not have to worry about VBUS power since the REGEN ignores incoming Pin1 5V and outputs its own, very clean 5VBUS to the DAC with one of its ultra-low-noise TPS regulators and an nice cap network around it.

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Hi Alex,

 

For clarification, in this context, are you talking about the USB Y-cables that are designed to supply 5V power from two USB ports while supplying data from only one port (to pull up to 1000mA at 5VDC, instead of just 500mA)?

 

If so, can they be rendered harmless (no ground loop) by blocking Pin #1 of that side of the Y that is meant to pull both data and power? (You once posted about doing this to convert a normal USB cable into a data-only cable.)

 

Thanks,

 

Mike

 

Hi Mike:

 

Yes, those are the cables I am referring to. But your second statement/question does not apply.

 

First of all, AFAIK, those split cables do not have an 'A' side wired to pull both data and Pin1 +5V. That would defeat the purpose of the cable which is to keep the 5V off the data cable run.

 

Secondly, the problem lies not in the +5V, but in the ground line. Both the data "leg" and the "power" leg of those split 'A' USB cables do have the Pin4 ground wire run in them (I think). Or maybe it is that the data side does not and then has to use the other leg for reference. It all gets very confusing and then some serious ground currents run the wrong way if you hook the power leg to something that has a different ground.

 

One JS-2 owner made a DC-barrel>USB adapter to plug the power leg of his LH Labs cable into the JS-2; He also had his Mac mini powered by the JS-2, and the data side of the LH cable fed from the mini to his DAC. He fried the input board of his expensive Meitner DAC.

 

I realize that the above example is more complicated than some in that he was trying to use the same PS (with common ground) to power the computer and the DAC's USB input. But my point is that those split cables should be used as they were meant to be, and that one asks for trouble and takes risks if you plug the 'A' ends into different chassis.

 

Besides, when using a REGEN there is no point in even using a spilt USB cable since the REGEN ignores Pin1 +5V and generates its own VERY clean 5VBUS for DACs that need it. If you have a split cable that you like, go ahead and use the data side of it--just don't plug the power side into anything. Leave it hanging (maybe cover the end).

 

And if you have a regular USB cable and don't want the 5V even going down the cable to the REGEN (though with it not connected at the REGEN end no current flows so it ought not to bother anything), you can, at the 'A' end cover (using methods described elsewhere) pin 1 before you plug it into your computer.

 

Hope that clears things up a bit.

 

These USB cable and all the external power supply topics and tweaks drive me crazy. But I guess I should expect as much when we put out a USB device and power supplies. ;);)

 

Cheers,

--Alex C.

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You have any Regen's shipping out this week?

 

Not really the right thread for a REGEN shipping update, but since you asked…

 

The last (12) of the July-promised orders went out yesterday--that's 300 for the month, whew!

 

As of today, the lowest unfilled order number (aside from 3 people who asked me to hold shipment due to vacation) is #1644. That number, all the way through to #1914 were all promised mid-August shipment, that's 300 units (some people ordered more than one).

And incoming parts to stay on track all look good, though maybe the last 30 of August's 300 will ship late in the month.

 

Orders #1915 and above--and any new orders placed now--will ship in September. I think very early September looks good, but don't hold me to that just yet. REGENs combined with record demand for JS-2s make for a lot of moving parts to this growing operation. Every day I get to choose amongst and put on and take off at least 5 different hats, including:

 

Parts procurement/vendor relations

Inventory management

Sales/client communications

Operations/shipping

Product production

Accounting (way behind on this one)

New product planning and parts research

 

Getting little or no attention these days is Marketing (though 6 reviewers now have REGENs) or web site freshening. I suppose chatting with you fellas counts as marketing.

 

So send in the clones. There ought to be clones… ;)

 

 

P.S. My desk is obviously covered in "to-do" lists.

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For clarification, in this context, are you talking about the USB Y-cables that are designed to supply 5V power from two USB ports while supplying data from only one port (to pull up to 1000mA at 5VDC, instead of just 500mA)?

 

If so, can they be rendered harmless (no ground loop) by blocking Pin #1 of that side of the Y that is meant to pull both data and power? (You once posted about doing this to convert a normal USB cable into a data-only cable.)

 

Sorry, now I get it. As you say and said, I am not referring to that sort of cable. But what does that cable (meant for stupid USB devices that don't conform to the 500mA draw limit) have to do with the REGEN or DACs? Would you run your audio with one of those?

 

Yes, I know I sell a USB device, but this topic makes my head hurt. ;)

 

Ciao,

--Alex C.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Oh, if you guys only knew how hard John has been working on this thing!

It is NOT a simple PS by any means--at least not the parts that make it work. There are over 200 parts on the board, and it took him 9 hours to place them all on the prototype. And then he has spent at least another 10 hours (sometimes with his microscope remapping pins to adjust for changed parts or board mistakes) making each of the 5 or 6 major sub-systems work as envisioned.

All the while he has been keeping a log of every change and fix since he has already laid out the production board (can you tell he is motivated?), and we don't want anything to be missed when we run the first pieces. Due to the complexity, there is no way we are going straight to production. We are going to have our board house make and hand-place a couple of boards based on John's production files, and we will test those fully before the first 250 unit run. I'm afraid to ask my assembly house what they are going to charge to hand place these boards with over 200 parts each--with parts on both sides of the board. Maybe they will give me a break since I've been doing a lot of biz with them. ;)

 

I so wish I could spill the beans on what makes this thing so radically different--but not yet. I want to be much closer to production and to have a chance for John and I to write a bit about how the whole thing works. Otherwise we will just be buried in questions. Plus, it is more fun to rock the world when a product is real and complete. Not that I am comparing the two, but imagine if Apple start talking about and describing the iPhone months prior to showing it.

To butcher a cliche, "This is not going to be your father's power supply."

 

--Alex C.

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Reading over those other comments, I do notice a lot of folks who seem to think that adding a UPS will clean up their mains-supply crap-- they won't. UPSes are designed to be uninterruptable (as the name says), not necessarily clean-- we've seen UPSes with more spuriae and noise than the local mains. Obviously, that's not helpful when it comes to cleaning up the AC to your gear.

 

Similarly, I've never seen isolation or filtration products that didn't have, shall we say, unintended consequences. So---yes, I'm leaning towards the Regeneration solution--which is fortunate, considering I'm down the hall from where the PowerPlants are built!

 

Hi Bill:

I'm very much with you on that. In fact I'm planning to buy for John's lab one of the only other pre-built, affordable units I have found, this $850 Monarchy Audio AC-Regenerator. John does not need a high wattage unit like your PSA PowerPlants, though if you know of a used/beater/older model in your offices for sale then please drop me a note.

 

I and others will tell you though that a properly sized (not too big, not too small) 1:1 isolation trans (with no other passive parts adornments--please keep those MOVs away from me!) can be a very effective and economical thing. I think loosely coupled ones sound better. But not for power amps--at least not for my big one. ;)

 

And thanks to another member here, I'm finally going to give a balanced transformer a try at low cost.

 

Ciao,

--Alex

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  • 2 weeks later...
Alex, will the new mystery unit rival the sound received if powering the Regen from a JS-2?

 

It should, but we honestly don't know yet. The boards are still on John's bench and have not made it to the listening room yet.

 

Of course there is a big difference between a little 1A 5/7V supply and a big, flexible, choke-filterer, dual-output, 5-6A linear PS.

 

Scaling up our new tech to build a unit with the current and range of the JS-2 won't be cheap. John and I sketched out one and it ended up being a 2-chassis, $3,000 monster! (Okay, that one would have 4 outputs and be able to do 10 amps, but a wide-range 6A unit would not be much less.) Will be a fun demonstration of the tech and a series of new techniques, but for a practical range of new PS units we will have to reconsider many things.

Truth is, as radical as the new piece will be--and the implications of John's circuits even for audio power supplies within components--I don't want to become just a power supply company. So we are looking at licensing out and/or producing boards (for OEM or DIY) containing the core "brains" of it, allowing others to customize to large or small scale around it. And these things are going to be awesome for bipolar, +/- supplies inside gear.

 

Sorry for the long answer to a simple question. And for having to continue to dance around what the thing actually is. We'll get there… :)

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To be honest, it was actually way more than a JS-2, the JS-2 has 5A spread amongst two outputs, so say 3 on one and 2 on the other. The monster we were talking about was 10A per output all at the same time! So that was 40A total. From 5V to 19V.

 

Oh yes, now I remember John (I get so little sleep these days I'm lucky to remember my name). The Dominator (our pet nickname for the beast) could indeed be amazing, but I think we have at least 3-4 projects ahead of it.

 

Besides, building big components like this takes a lot of labor and space, neither of which I am yet scaled up on. Just getting 20 JS-2s built and out the door each month (plus mountains of REGENs!) has me and my assistant pretty maxed out.

 

These all left yesterday (many with REGENs, MMKs, and extra cables tucked in):

 

15 packed JS-2 LPS.JPG

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I would be interested to see how they accurately managed to measure such a low noise level, or whether it was just theoretical.

If you are referring to the 1µV printed spec of the iPower, it has a footnote of it being across the audio band. Who measures SMPS noise in just the audio band? How about up near the 60Khz or 100KHz switching frequency--or up much higher?

 

I would be surprised if even the new "Mystery PSU when using the original supplied SMPS +7.5V plugpack doesn't still have a low current, A.C. voltage of up to 1/2 the mains supply voltage measurable from it's D.C. output to Earth.

 

I can guarantee it won't. 100% isolation from the "energizing" supply. :)

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I apologize if I missed it elsewhere in the thread, I searched a few relevant terms but didn't come up with any matches - will this new PSU concept ONLY work for Regen, or could it, by chance, be used for something like a dedicated USB output card in the PC (like a PPA v1 card)?

 

The one output will be switchable between 5V and 7V (the latter for the REGEN since it needs more that 5V so one of its regulators can regulate down to 5V for the USB VBUS). Max output current will be between 1A-1.2A.

 

So yes, the idea is that you can use these supplies for all sorts of low voltage stuff:

1 or 2 REGENs, small DACs, some PCIe USB cards, an SSD, a Squeezebox Touch, a Cubox-i, whatever works with 5 or 7 volts and does not need a lot of amperage. Will be the cleanest possible.

 

Output jack will be 5.5mm x 2.1mm, and the unit will come with a 70cm (27.5 inch) 16AWG coax DC cable with 5.5mm x 2.1mm plugs at both ends (one end will be right-angle for those the butt REGENs together).

 

See next reply for detail on the input side.

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Alex, will the mystery add-on accept a 5.5/2.5 barrel input for those of us with existing linear supplies supplying 7.5V DC? If not, what input will it accept without an adapter?

 

The DC input range (for the "energizing" supply) needs to be anywhere from 7.5V/2.5A (the huge number of Mean Well SMPS that shipped with REGENs) to 9V/2A, to 12V/1.5A. As previously explained, choice of SMPS or LPS for that function is strictly a matter of if your system or brain is "allergic" to having an SMPS plugged into the wall with the rest of your gear. Our new supply won't care a bit, guaranteed.

 

Input jack will be 5.5mm x 2.1mm. This is to allow use of the SMPS units that REGEN owner's have. The new product will be sold 3 ways:

 

1) By itself with no SMPS--for those that have a supply to power it with, like the 1000+ REGEN users already do;

 

2) With an SMPS--most likely a MeanWell 12V/1.5A or some other, so that those who don't have a supply can power it (those without a REGEN who intend to use the supply for something else). Not going to ship this configuration with the MW 7.5V/2.93A SMPS because I already have a hard enough time getting them in the volume needed for REGEN kits. The same series supply in 12V is plentiful everywhere.

 

3) As a package with the new unit, a REGEN and a 12V/1.5A supply--for those who do not already have a REGEN.

 

The sale prices of all the above will be very close, just reflecting slight savings for variation in included/excluded powering bricks.

 

 

Oh, and to directly address your question about an "adapter," for which I assume you meant 5.5mm x 2.5mm to 2.1mm: One can plug a 2.5mm hole plug into a 2.1mm pin jack and it will work, it just won't be real snug. But BixPower.com is very 5.5mm x 2.5mm focused and they sell more than a dozen different $5 sold adapters that take a 5.5mm x 2.5mm plug and turn it into other sizes, including 5.5mm x 2.1mm.

 

Hope that clears thing up for everyone tonight.

 

Ciao,

 

--Alex C.

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I have a Paul Hynes SR3-12v 2amp PS spare - can I use this to power a Regen?

 

My DAC is an Auralic Vega which I believe doesn't use USD line power at all, so the above indicates this should be OK.

 

Correct?

 

Hi Colin: Yes, as long as your DAC does not draw from the 5V USB line at all, then you are perfectly safe powering the REGEN with a 12V supply.

 

As a true test of your Vega not needing USB VBUS power, please cut a 3mm wide strip from the end of a business card, place it over pin 1 of the 'A'--computer end--of your USB cable (Google a pic of USB pinouts to be sure you are looking at pin 1), fold it over and insert into your computer to keep 5V off the cable. If, without the REGEN, your DAC still works, then you have proven that it does not use any USB bus power and you are save to proceed with powering the REGEN from a 12V supply.

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