AC Filtering, Grounding Boxes, Linear PSU and Balanced Power.

[jabbr]

@sandyk nice response — really — personally I’d much rather discuss the pros and cons of circuit topologies than whether to wind the twists in our power cables clockwise vs counterclockwise

 

A note regarding shunt regulators with input choke filters is that the choked circuit wants to see a basal current draw and higher allows a smaller & cheaper choke   

 

A shunt regulator is going to tend to tend to provide a constant current draw regardless of load! Now consider them apples when you think about the need of an AC cable to respond to varying load  ☝️

 

This discussion is on-topic for this thread

[sandyk]

4 minutes ago, jabbr said:

@sandyk nice response — really — personally I’d much rather discuss the pros and cons of circuit topologies than whether to wind the twists in our power cables clockwise vs counterclockwise

 

A note regarding shunt regulators with input choke filters is that the choked circuit wants to see a basal current draw and higher allows a smaller & cheaper choke   

 

This discussion is on-topic for this thread

 Due to copyright, I am unable to post a copy of the S.C. short article, complete with screen grabs.

 If interested please send me a PM

Alex

[Ralf11]

For the record, it is a copyright violation to pm it to someone too.

[sandyk]

12 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

For the record, it is a copyright violation to pm it to someone too.

Shhh !

 And you of course are as innocent as pure fresh white snow ?

[Ralf11]

yeh, pretty much

 

I do think we should have a change in the law to add something like "Abandonment of Copyright" -- if you don't make information available, then your right to prevent others doing so would evaporate

[Cornan]

11 hours ago, sandyk said:

Micael

Jon and myself aren't really in disagreement in this area.  The choke will help to further reduce the rubbish going back into the A.C. mains supply.(Read John's circuit description) Silicon Chip magazine also did similar using a much smaller value choke to eliminate the toroidal transformer buzz of a few of the constructed 20W Class A amplifiers.

 With the +5V PSU design mentioned, you may have noticed that not everybody in the thread linked to by Kumakuma agreed that the LInear PSU for the SBT was the complete answer. My friends 2 SBTs had further work done internally, including rerouting/additional earth return and IIIRC, and an  additional bypass capacitor was fitted.

Neither, do I share the extreme fascination of people like yourself with PSU cables.

I prefer to use heavier duty mains rated cable of as short a length as possible.

I tried the J.S. recommendations and noticed no further improvement when used with the JLH and short, heavy duty output leads. However, IF you need to use lengthier PSU leads ......

 Jon also mentioned the use of shunt regulators, and I have absolutely no disagreement with that. My main problem with many shunt regulators is that they are voltage specific, meaning that you will need to change some component values for different output voltages.

I prefer to use my tweaked version of the John Linsley Hood designed PSU Add-on, which is also a variety of shunt regulator. It is markedly improved over the original design due to the use of more modern , higher current rated devices with considerably higher HFE and Ft than were available back then. Mainly due to this It has a much wider effective bandwidth than the original design, as well as more than double the original amount of simulated capacitance. Replacing a 10K resistor with a 1.4mA to 2.0mA  Current Regulated Diode also increases it's effectiveness at voltages as low as +5V and +3.3V

 It is also usable over a wider range of supply voltages without component changes, and the same circuit can be used for both + and - supply versions with appropriate Semiconductor changes and electrolytic capacitor rotation. 

 

As is usually the case, there is more than one way to obtain a similar end result.

Alex

 

Thanks Alex! I probably thought that disagreement was worse than it really was. Agree to disagree is a great way to move forward.

 

I would’nt say that I have an extreme fascination to AC mains cables. I like them short (50-100cm) with good quality plugs in a starquad configuration. No JSSG on my AC mains cables so far. Only on DC cables, USB cable and Ethernet cables.

 

If I am fascinated of something right now it is the LT3045 voltage regs. This fascination have now turned into an interest of good quality Aluminium Polymer caps. I have just ordered 10pcs Kemet A750 series Aluminium Polymer caps (25v 560) for further experiments. It seems to me, just like you indicated in another post, that the caps do make a big difference. I am determined to find out if my very positive experiences putting LT3045s in series is actually the benefits of putting the Polymer caps in series? If anything it will be fun to see if that holds true in my setup.

 

Micael

[Speedskater]

On 4/6/2018 at 6:18 AM, marce said:

Thanks, when I have some spare dosh I shall get it and have a read.

Henry Ott credits him in a few places, such as AES-2007 AUDIO INTERCONNECTIONS and
GROUNDING – DISPELLING THE MYTHS.

Yes the 850 page hard bound Henry Ott book is rather expensive. But a book search might come up with some rather large bits and pieces.

http://www.hottconsultants.com/EMCE_book_files/emce_book.html

 

On the other hand the Neil Muncy paper is in a AES journal reprint that has 85 pages of excellent papers. The US price is $15, check with the London AES.

Volume 43, Number 6, 1995 June

AES Journal :: Shields & Grounds

US link:

https://customer258769455.portal.membersuite.com/onlinestorefront/ViewMerchandiseDetails.aspx?contextID=dfb59c4a-00ce-c043-7df9-0b3b8d837466&categoryID=dfb59c4a-0066-cfc7-defb-0b3b8d837468

[Speedskater]

On 4/5/2018 at 11:38 PM, jabbr said:

Oh gosh, there is an entire sub forum on DIYAudio devoted to power supplies and every variation of every supply has been discussed. AFAIK Swenson’s Supply was an input choke filter on a relatively routine regulated supply 317? etc. Fine.

I have been a member of the DIY Forum for over 15 years, without knowing the exact words & spellings is seldom productive. Some threads seem to go on forever, one thread reached 100,000 posts, so they retitled it and started again.

[marce]

On 07/04/2018 at 6:52 PM, Speedskater said:

Yes the 850 page hard bound Henry Ott book is rather expensive. But a book search might come up with some rather large bits and pieces.

http://www.hottconsultants.com/EMCE_book_files/emce_book.html

 

On the other hand the Neil Muncy paper is in a AES journal reprint that has 85 pages of excellent papers. The US price is $15, check with the London AES.

Volume 43, Number 6, 1995 June

AES Journal :: Shields & Grounds

US link:

https://customer258769455.portal.membersuite.com/onlinestorefront/ViewMerchandiseDetails.aspx?contextID=dfb59c4a-00ce-c043-7df9-0b3b8d837466&categoryID=dfb59c4a-0066-cfc7-defb-0b3b8d837468

I have Henry Ott's book, most of this stuff I can get through work as its relevant, stopped buying them myself as often a site visit would leave me bookless... I do have a PDF version but prefer books as you can jot notes in the margins.Insert other media

[Speedskater]

On 4/5/2018 at 9:57 PM, kumakuma said:

Here's a more tightly focused thread from a different forum:

http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?82648-Linear-Power-Supplies&p=586042#post586042

Ah, J.S. has some good posts in the older part of that thread. posts #35, 69 & 90.

They are about hi-fi component's power supplies and AC line noise.

It seems that J.S. and 'marce' (Marc E.) have followed similar career paths.

[Cornan]

@marce and @Speedskater

I have a question that I hope any of you could answer? Is there any advantages using a 2-pole RCD/GFCI instead of a input fuse or is a fuse both better for safety and SQ on for example a isolation transformer with floating secondary. I have tried to find clues online but have’nt find anything useful so far. 

Appreciate an answer for both SQ and safety aspects. ?

[Speedskater]

a] the RCD/GFCI  performs a very different function than a fuse or circuit breaker.

b] the fuse should blow or the circuit breaker trip if there is more current flow than the design value. Think of it as a short-circuit.

c] the RCD/GFCI trips if the Hot & Neutral currents are not equal and opposite. It only takes a 30mA with the RCD and just 5mA with the GFCI current difference to trip these units.

d] so a fuse protects the hi-fi component and the RCD/GFCI protects the human touching the component.

e] they perform two different safety functions.

 

What do you think that we will say about SQ?

[Cornan]

36 minutes ago, Speedskater said:

a] the RCD/GFCI  performs a very different function than a fuse or circuit breaker.

b] the fuse should blow or the circuit breaker trip if there is more current flow than the design value. Think of it as a short-circuit.

c] the RCD/GFCI trips if the Hot & Neutral currents are not equal and opposite. It only takes a 30mA with the RCD and just 5mA with the GFCI current difference to trip these units.

d] so a fuse protects the hi-fi component and the RCD/GFCI protects the human touching the component.

e] they perform two different safety functions.

 

What do you think that we will say about SQ?

 

Thanks! So you mean that a 2-pole RCD/GFCI at the INPUT plus a 2-pole RCD/GFCI at the OUTPUT of a IT will not protect both the IT AND ensure personal safety?

When it comes to SQ I just wondered which one would be preferred in theory due to their specific construction. I know different fuses makes a difference in my setup, but is a RCD/GFCI a better or worse option for optimal contact?

[Speedskater]

a]  the RCD/GFCI  units are only for human safety.

b]  the fuse or circuit breaker protect all the down-stream components from overloads and short circuits.

c]  you are trying to compare two very different functions.

 

* * * * * * * * * *

Note that there are AC power GFCI/circuit breakers.  It's two different circuits (or functions) in one package.

[Cornan]

7 hours ago, Speedskater said:

a]  the RCD/GFCI  units are only for human safety.

b]  the fuse or circuit breaker protect all the down-stream components from overloads and short circuits.

c]  you are trying to compare two very different functions.

 

* * * * * * * * * *

Note that there are AC power GFCI/circuit breakers.  It's two different circuits (or functions) in one package.

 

Thanks! So, will for example this specific inline 2-pole circuit breaker protect the IT if connected between the AC mains wall outlet and the IT?

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/40-Amp-30mA-RCD-RCCB-Circuit-Breaker-Trip-Switch-in-Metal-Enclosure-in-line-230V-/273062629569

 

 

Note that one is called a RCD/RCCB.

[Speedskater]

a] an I.T. would be permanently hard-wired.

b] the breaker in the main or sub panel will protect the I.T.

c] there may be one or more breakers on the secondary of the I.T.

d] the GFCI won't do much on the primary. it/they should be on the I.T. secondary

e] in the case of balanced transformers, the NEC requires a GFCI on the secondary.

[marce]

On 05/04/2018 at 5:47 PM, Albrecht said:

""Oh by the way every switch is a regen...""

 

LOL!!  Now that is high comedy. In your (implied) words, prove it.

Prove what, every switch IS A regen, as is every USB hub, it is a fact there can be no disagreement on this, the phy reads in a signal and spits it out again...

[adamdea]

28 minutes ago, marce said:

Prove what, every switch IS A regen, as is every USB hub, it is a fact there can be no disagreement on this, the phy reads in a signal and spits it out again...

Ah but those are your actual words not your implied words. I have no idea what your implied words are supposed to be (butter tastes better than margarine? Arsenal will win the Europa League? A rolling stone gathers no moss?) but if you can identify them, then apparently that is what you are being asked to prove. 

[austinpop]

12 minutes ago, adamdea said:

Arsenal will win the Europa League?

 

I like the way you think. COYG!

[adamdea]

2 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

I like the way you think. COYG!

My thinking is largely based on extrapolation from data collected during the first half of the Moscow match.

[marce]

16 minutes ago, adamdea said:

Ah but those are your actual words not your implied words. I have no idea what your implied words are supposed to be (butter tastes better than margarine? Arsenal will win the Europa League? A rolling stone gathers no moss?) but if you can identify them, then apparently that is what you are being asked to prove. 

What are you on about...

 

[adamdea]

On 4/5/2018 at 5:47 PM, Albrecht said:

""Oh by the way every switch is a regen...""

 

LOL!!  Now that is high comedy. In your (implied) words, prove it.

 

2 minutes ago, marce said:

What are you on about...

 

Perhaps I misunderstood Albrecht. Actually I think you're right I did. Anyway COYG.

[marce]

All USB hubs, Ethernet switches etc. regenerates the signal going through it,  it's what they do, can't see what the argument about this is it's a basic fact...

[marce]

Had to look up COYG hope they do.

[adamdea]

 

1 minute ago, marce said:

Had to look up COYG hope they do.

I was disappointed though to find out that getting into the Champions League via Europa would not, as I had hoped, achieve the holy grail of knocking Spurs off the fourth place.