AC Filtering, Grounding Boxes, Linear PSU and Balanced Power.

[YashN]

On 12/30/2017 at 5:37 PM, sandyk said:

 

Well done !!! 

I can relate very closely to much of what you have done here.

 

Thanks. And by the way, your existing posts on the forum about a couple of setups to try for the DAC when trying to power externally came in handy, as did some of our PMs.

 

I am not sure why my DAC sometimes work without one of the (technically filtered) power connetions to the computer as it seems it didn't at all initially, but it now does. I suppose it could be because of the onboard battery going low sometimes.

 

On 12/30/2017 at 5:37 PM, sandyk said:

Unfortunately, the closed minded Objective set will ignore your evidence and continue on their merry way claiming there is nothing wrong with normal USB implementation and keep dishing out their flawed advice.

 

Up to them . I've found I don't get big results fast if I spend time trying to convince others. I do if I focus on my setup and my research and spend time conversing with like-minded people.   Then I can listen to the fruits of my (and like-minded people's) labour while building something else.

 

On 12/30/2017 at 5:37 PM, sandyk said:

Perhaps you can put this post in a blog for easy reference by others ?

 

Maybe, but a Bookmark can work too. I could paste the contents in my Blog here probably.

 

On 12/30/2017 at 5:37 PM, sandyk said:

Also, it deserves posting in a more friendly area of the Forum such as the Uptone area where members trying to sort out these problems can more readily locate this information.

 

The problem with that is it becomes an area managed by Uptone. I do like 'Superbad' Alex and John, of course, but doing that we come under an extra layer of 'management'.

[YashN]

On 12/31/2017 at 1:44 PM, Cornan said:

 

Spot on! My conclution exactly (as I've posted on another thread). I connect my JSGT to Entreq grounding box which actually sounds better than connected to the same star-earth wired PSD as my floating SMPS in my setup (floating SMPS is connected to a balanced IT with floating secondary).

 

Let me know which Entreq box you have as there are several, and they do different things. The original Entreq box considered in this thread and the original post was solely focused on 'signal grounding' and had some odd properties, like the SQ effect taking some time to be heard  - this only from third-parties recounting it as I haven't heard and Entreq in a system. I did build and use a rudimentary 'signal grounding' contraption at one time and still heard an improvement in SQ in my setup despite the AC Filter already being used.

 

As for me: Having experimented with SMPSes, my DIY Linear PSU + my custom USB Connector + my DIY AC Filter, I have heard how the SMPSes affect SQ in several ways.

 

That's why ultimately, I just want to get rid of all of them in the listening room if I can and go all Linear or some other clean form of powering.

 

Quote

 

 

[YashN]

On 12/31/2017 at 3:22 PM, gstew said:

 

YashN,

 

All of this sounds good. AND should be  a good set of guidelines and areas of inquiry for those looking to optimize their audio setup.

 

Hey Greg, thanks man. hope you had a great N.Y. party, all the best for 2018.

 

Anyone with better gear can probably easily do better measurements. It's just a matter of taking the time.

 

Quote

 

AND to me one of the most important points is starting with really low-noise power supplies, at their output, on how much noise they feed into the AC line, and how they react with other gear (John Swenson's high-impedance SMPS leakage). 

 

Totally agree. My DIY Linear PSU combines a few clever things, and a good part of those actually come from some descriptions from John, at least prior to the Regulator.

 

For post-regulator, I had the opportunity of directly experimenting with and hearing what capacitors do at the output section. Things like why people were saying great things about Vishay and Elna capacitors. I also had the idea of testing a capacitor used in one of my old digital cameras for the Flash. It does wonders for attack reproduction.

 

Now, however, before one gets too excited about capacitors, one has to really think about what we're doing when building an LPS with an old regulator like the LM317 which is what I did as an experiment in building my first DIY Linear PSU:

 

- It's quite a flawed regulator, you can get better nowadays, but it's cheap

 

- A lot of its flaws have been analysed, so if you look for them, you can find information about how to work around these

 

- Internally, there's a lot of components in it

 

- What you're really doing with the post-Reg components is battling non-linearities of the LM317-based circuit, while making instaneous current delivery, power transfer, impedance response + symmetry, ripple-minimisation, etc... satisfactory for audiophile use.

 

Overall, it's not very good, but it's a good basis for learning, because if you actually take some time to build circuits with it, listen (or measure/graph or listen + measure/graph), simulate, revise, tame its flaws, then you'll learn a ton on circuit-building for power supplies.

 

I could do much better using it nowadays, but it's far better to use newer regulators IMO.

 

What I gained from doing this though is doing circuit design while simultaneously listening in an audiophile setup.

 

This is *priceless*, and very different from learning circuits from books.

 

Quote

 

One of my guiding principals has been to eliminate sources of noise rather then try to filter or shield from them. My thought is that once you have a particular noise source, filtering or shielding will only reduce its impacts, not eliminate it. The best way to have low noise is to not create or introduce it in the first place.

 

Agree with that, if it simplifies things a lot.

 

Quote

 

So your long-term plan of avoiding SMPSs in my setup is something I've worked hard to achieve... and with just recently moving to amplifiers that don't use SMPSs, I've gotten there. It was good. AND well worth the effort and expense to get there.

 

 

 

Definitely, I remember seeing your custom Linear PSU for your computer. Way to go!

[YashN]

On 12/31/2017 at 4:40 PM, sandyk said:

 

 No, but he appears to be far more open minded than most though.

We need people like Marc to use their vast experience to help further improve this area.

 

I'll PM you sometime about that.

[YashN]

On 12/31/2017 at 4:51 PM, Cornan said:

+1 @marce is a great guy with a lot of knowledge and an open mind to unexplained things.@sandyk

 

 

Yet, you wouldn't let someone who is an expert solely at cooking manage your family's capital, correct?

 

Audiophilia is its own Knowledge Domain.

[jabbr]

2 hours ago, YashN said:

 

Yet, you wouldn't let someone who is an expert solely at cooking manage your family's capital, correct?

 

Audiophilia is its own Knowledge Domain.

Yet I am confident that electrons are electrons ?

 

Said another way, there remains a great deal that we can still do to optimize audio circuits which falls within Maxwell defined behavior. Once that’s done we might at that point consider whether or not extra-Maxwellian behaviors are relevant to audio (at this point there is zero suggestion) ... well of course unless you want to consider Freudian behaviors but I think audiophile marketing has that covered quite nicely, so I’ll stick with physics when ? ng about it, and also listen to what I like ?

[Cornan]

7 hours ago, YashN said:

 

Let me know which Entreq box you have as there are several, and they do different things. The original Entreq box considered in this thread and the original post was solely focused on 'signal grounding' and had some odd properties, like the SQ effect taking some time to be heard  - this only from third-parties recounting it as I haven't heard and Entreq in a system. I did build and use a rudimentary 'signal grounding' contraption at one time and still heard an improvement in SQ in my setup despite the AC Filter already being used.

 

As for me: Having experimented with SMPSes, my DIY Linear PSU + my custom USB Connector + my DIY AC Filter, I have heard how the SMPSes affect SQ in several ways.

 

That's why ultimately, I just want to get rid of all of them in the listening room if I can and go all Linear or some other clean form of powering.

 

 

 

I am using Entreq Minimus basic version (copper - not silver) in three spots right now. JSGT on Aqvox switch-8, GND screw on Aqvox switch-8 and JSGT on TP-Link Vivid powerbank (charger). My Aucharm grounding box takes care of the JSGT on my main router (powered by a floating LPSU and still makes a difference for the better). Entreq is considerable better than Aucharm.

 

What you might not know is that all of my SMPS is floating and have LT3045 linear voltage regs in series. My setup is probably more floating most people using SMPS or LPSU. Anyway, JSGT nor Entreq improve everywhere in my setup. If I for example add a JSGT to my DAC, streamer or BluWave the SQ gets worse.

 

The main thing that I have noticed in my setup is how both isolations/floats improves in series. I have said it before and it still holds true that no isolation is absolute. I strive to float my intire setup from the outside world and isolate everything inside my setup from each other as much as possible. Now I find myself facing a new obstacle. I am moving to a new appartment on Friday. I had a look at the electrical wiring inside there the other day and found that not a single ac main wall outlet (exept kitchen and bathroom) had safety ground. It will be interesting to see how that will affect SQ. ?

[Cornan]

8 hours ago, YashN said:

 

Yet, you wouldn't let someone who is an expert solely at cooking manage your family's capital, correct?

 

Audiophilia is its own Knowledge Domain.

 

Sure! Obviously I choose my own weird paths in this hobby. Not neccesarily what experts are telling me to. If I would have trusted them all I would still be stuck years back from now. However, there is still many out here worth listening to and to gain great knowledge from. @marce is one of them on my list. Everyone including myself can have a bad day! ?

[mourip]

I find CA to be one of the few forums where real progress is being made by a few users thinking outside the box. Some of the progress is made and validated by hard science but a lot of it starts with members who use their ears to notice a positive change and then do experimenting to figure out how it is happening. This is one of the most open minded threads on CA or anywhere really. It is refreshing to find a place where anything can be considered without rejecting it out of hand just because it does not yet fit into ones own well studied understanding.

 

Outside this thread on CA there are definitely nasty criticisms from members who are anything but non-existent. There is a small group of folks who can always be counted on to criticize ideas that are real but just not fully understood. Some of this criticism is very direct and intentional, some is thinly veiled as humor or thread diversion.

 

Lets please leave this thread as one of the few where anything can be considered and critical evaluation remains helpful.

[YashN]

13 hours ago, jabbr said:

Yet I am confident that electrons are electrons ?

 

Said another way, there remains a great deal that we can still do to optimize audio circuits which falls within Maxwell defined behavior. Once that’s done we might at that point consider whether or not extra-Maxwellian behaviors are relevant to audio (at this point there is zero suggestion) ... well of course unless you want to consider Freudian behaviors but I think audiophile marketing has that covered quite nicely, so I’ll stick with physics when ? ng about it, and also listen to what I like ?

 

Despite all that you wrote:

 

I still wouldn't let you manage my Capital, i.e. not unless you showed you have expertise in that.

 

Domain Knowledge is important. It is important you consider Computer Audiophilia as its own domain.

[YashN]

7 hours ago, Cornan said:

However, there is still many out here worth listening to and to gain great knowledge from. @marce is one of them on my list.

 

I'd rather he stops visiting my threads and also stopped being mentioned in my threads.

 

Since you only recently made an account over at DIY Audio, I suggest you look at some of the trollish posts he has made over the years over there... Not even sure what brings him here at CA...

[YashN]

1 hour ago, mourip said:

I find CA to be one of the few forums where real progress is being made by a few users thinking outside the box. Some of the progress is made and validated by hard science but a lot of it starts with members who use their ears to notice a positive change and then do experimenting to figure out how it is happening. This is one of the most open minded threads on CA or anywhere really. It is refreshing to find a place where anything can be considered without rejecting it out of hand just because it does not yet fit into ones own well studied understanding.

 

Outside this thread on CA there are definitely nasty criticisms from members who are anything but non-existent. There is a small group of folks who can always be counted on to criticize ideas that are real but just not fully understood. Some of this criticism is very direct and intentional, some is thinly veiled as humor or thread diversion.

 

Lets please leave this thread as one of the few where anything can be considered and critical evaluation remains helpful.

 

Thanks for the cool post. If you reach back to the start of this thread, and some of the few I made, you will see that there were quite obvious attempts to derail it as well.

 

There are many threads where cool things are happening - Cornan and Austinpop are newer members who have contributed a lot from what I can see. John Swenson and others have been there for a longer time, etc...

[Cornan]

3 minutes ago, YashN said:

 

I'd rather he stops visiting my threads and also stopped being mentioned in my threads.

 

Since you only recently made an account over at DIY Audio, I suggest you look at some of the trollish posts he has made over the years over there... Not even sure what brings him here at CA...

 

I understand. It is good to have a better record of course. I have´nt seen him around on DiyAudio just yet, but as you said I am all fresh there and I am only following like three threads over there so far. 

 

[marce]

8 minutes ago, YashN said:

 

I'd rather he stops visiting my threads and also stopped being mentioned in my threads.

 

Since you only recently made an account over at DIY Audio, I suggest you look at some of the trollish posts he has made over the years over there... Not even sure what brings him here at CA...

Why have a dig at me mate, not nice, but then because I don't slavishly agree with you on everything I am a troll. So give it a rest please.

[marce]

11 minutes ago, YashN said:

 

I'd rather he stops visiting my threads and also stopped being mentioned in my threads.

 

Since you only recently made an account over at DIY Audio, I suggest you look at some of the trollish posts he has made over the years over there... Not even sure what brings him here at CA...

I also have as much right as you to be on here, this is a bit beyond the joke, playing god and saying where I should or should not go, pathetic just because we disagree.

[YashN]

6 minutes ago, marce said:

I also have as much right as you to be on here, this is a bit beyond the joke, playing god and saying where I should or should not go, pathetic just because we disagree.

 

My threads, my rules.

 

You're not welcome on any of my threads.

 

Let's leave it at that.

[YashN]

14 minutes ago, Cornan said:

 

I understand. It is good to have a better record of course. I have´nt seen him around on DiyAudio just yet, but as you said I am all fresh there and I am only following like three threads over there so far. 

 

 

There is a lot of good information and good people over there at D.A.

 

However, be aware of certain policies in place there where your posts can be removed without warning and that you cannot say anything about mod abuse over there.

 

If you dig, there is a lot to learn, including about the 'venerable' as a rather unsavoury character over there described it LM317...

 

There is a lot of great information about circuit-building which can be generally useful.

[YashN]

8 hours ago, Cornan said:

 

I am using Entreq Minimus basic version (copper - not silver) in three spots right now. JSGT on Aqvox switch-8, GND screw on Aqvox switch-8 and JSGT on TP-Link Vivid powerbank (charger). My Aucharm grounding box takes care of the JSGT on my main router (powered by a floating LPSU and still makes a difference for the better). Entreq is considerable better than Aucharm.

 

What you might not know is that all of my SMPS is floating and have LT3045 linear voltage regs in series. My setup is probably more floating most people using SMPS or LPSU. Anyway, JSGT nor Entreq improve everywhere in my setup. If I for example add a JSGT to my DAC, streamer or BluWave the SQ gets worse.

 

The main thing that I have noticed in my setup is how both isolations/floats improves in series. I have said it before and it still holds true that no isolation is absolute. I strive to float my intire setup from the outside world and isolate everything inside my setup from each other as much as possible.

 

Interesting setup.

 

I will have to do some experiments with the SMPSes here, but as I've said: my previous experiments already showed me they affect gear in more than one way, at least two ways, if not more: I need both the AC Filter and the Custom USB Connector to minimise their effects, so that's a lot of additional gear to have to put in place.

[marce]

11 minutes ago, YashN said:

 

My threads, my rules.

 

You're not welcome on any of my threads.

 

Let's leave it at that.

tough then isn't it...

[Cornan]

12 minutes ago, YashN said:

 

There is a lot of good information and good people over there at D.A.

 

However, be aware of certain policies in place there where your posts can be removed without warning and that you cannot say anything about mod abuse over there.

 

If you dig, there is a lot to learn, including about the 'venerable' as a rather unsavoury character over there described it LM317...

 

There is a lot of great information about circuit-building which can be generally useful.

 

Thanks for the tip YashN!

I have just started to dig around the DiyAudio forum but need to get a hang of it. I am sure there are a lot of great things to learn there when I know how to find it!  

 

I have a plan to make a LPSU of my own using a balanced isolation transformer with floating secondary and my Stammheim 3A/LT3045s in series and will probably post a question or two about that specific project at the DiyAudio forum as soon as I have got my new appartment decorated and my gears in place.

 

 

[Cornan]

41 minutes ago, YashN said:

 

Interesting setup.

 

I will have to do some experiments with the SMPSes here, but as I've said: my previous experiments already showed me they affect gear in more than one way, at least two ways, if not more: I need both the AC Filter and the Custom USB Connector to minimise their effects, so that's a lot of additional gear to have to put in place.

 

Thanks!

 

IME SMPS should have a floating construction, connected to a isolation transformer with floating secondary to be something useful for audio purposes. A balanced IT with floating secondary is just amazingly great for SQ if you ask me, but scary business for many. JSGT is only requires for network devices. There is ofcourse a bunch of other things that improves SMPS. LT3045s in series, Starquad AC/DC cables and JSSG is a must IMO. Star-earthed power distributor post IT is great as well.

I know that I have gone a much longer way to improve SMPS than what would have been neccessary with a LPSU, but that is not really the point. Even if SQ is the main goal the exploring part is the real fun!  

 

My next upcoming mission is to make a DC Y-split using a Gophert csp-3205II (10v/5.1A max) with a single LT3045 9v/1A on the power leg and two boxed shunt regulators 5v/~480mA with Kelvin starquad output cables powering my Aqvox switch-8 plus Luckit BluWave Spdif GI output (USB input powered by a ISO Regen powered by another Gophert csp3205II with LT3045s in series). I am just waiting for the shunt regs to be ready for delivery any week now. You gotta love this hobby!  

[jabbr]

1 hour ago, YashN said:

 

Despite all that you wrote:

 

I still wouldn't let you manage my Capital, i.e. not unless you showed you have expertise in that.

 

I’m not offering! ... well unless you need help saving $$$ on a so-called grounding box ???

 

1 hour ago, YashN said:

 

Domain Knowledge is important. It is important you consider Computer Audiophilia as its own domain.

 

I’d say take information, and others opinions for what they are worth. I do see a tendency in Audiophilia for folks to latch on to firmly held beliefs without really questioning the basis for these beliefs. 

 

Ideally rational discourse would help  folks question their entrenched (Entreqed???) beliefs, and learn ... 

 

Reasonable opinions, and experiences, are always a value to me, and in my experience, cross-fertilizing domains is a huge way forward

[Ralf11]

Is Computer Audiophilia its own domain, distinct from say digital or analog electronics?

 

and BTW, I always thought it was "my server, my rules"

[Speedskater]

How does an Original Poster get to set the rules about whether corrections and engineering facts get posted or not?

[sandyk]

3 hours ago, Speedskater said:

How does an Original Poster get to set the rules about whether corrections and engineering facts get posted or not?

 

Clearly state this in your initial post, and ask Chris to intervene if your request isn't met by some posters.

 A correction is one thing, but "engineering facts"   may not always be " facts" despite being sincerely believed by some members.

Many Textbooks get periodically updated too, as more recent research shows the need for updating. 

This applies in all areas.