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AC Filtering, Grounding Boxes, Linear PSU and Balanced Power.


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On 7/7/2017 at 0:49 PM, Cornan said:

 

If there is a word I truly hate it is the word expectation bias. It is the most worthless word ever used in the audiophile world. It tells you nothing about anything. Expectation bias is the most subjective word that you can dig up, so I do understand why you want to use it in defence. But common, bring something more firm to prove your statements! 

Really, why is a DC blockers useless in a tech point of view?

 

wrong - altho maybe it doesn't matter based on your grounding box thread

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On 7/7/2017 at 2:31 PM, ted_b said:

I've searched the later part of the thread a bit, and other than John's initial enclosure (stuffed fiberfill in nested boxes; I know it's more than that but you get the idea) I've found nothing about what anyone's done to cover their Topaz to limit the hum yet allow for air flow (and reduce the eye soreness on a god awful industrial Topaz unit)  Anyone have a drawing or pic?  You seriously do not want to see my hideous temp solution (upturned plastic milk crate with small pillows bungee corded to the outside perimeter).  :)

 

 

you could put it outside - I thought about this but am contenting myself with a $40 Tripp Lite for now

 

or put open weave cloth on a frame over it

 

 

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1 hour ago, YashN said:

 

Pseudo-science crap: it is well-known that Amir doesn't know how to properly do measurements with the Audio Precision gear.

Its not a hard measurement, I presume Amir has done some measurements that have upset you on a personal level judging by your willingness to attack him at every opportunity.

Just love this hobby...

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On 7/11/2017 at 10:43 AM, Johnseye said:

 

Seriously.  If you are truly immune to bias then you have a gift.  There are folks with perfect pitch, which can be learned, who setup audio equipment.  I don't know if you can truly be immune to bias.  I suspect not, but if you believe it, more power to you.

 

Johnseye: It's no gift whatsoever. What it is, is a sensible, mature approach to evaluations. If one approaches it with strong, preconceived bias, it may very well have an influence. However, realizing that virtually every manufacturer has had a "dog" (or two or more) within its product line-up over the years, should caution one (with enough experience) to not expect  similar greatness or putridness based on earlier (or later) designs.

 

pj   

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15 hours ago, marce said:

 I presume Amir has done some measurements that have upset you on a personal level judging by your willingness to attack him at every opportunity.

 

Well ... Amir occasionally shows that he does not fully understand the nature of things such as FFTs, and this impacts his measurement strategies and his conclusions. That AP should better be operated by someone else.

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On 5/30/2017 at 7:23 AM, marce said:

Anyone actually measured the difference balanced mains makes? would be curious to see if there is any difference in a domestic environment and if so how much... 

 

marce: Measured? Just connect and listen. Most definitely connect source components and, perhaps front-end preamplifier's (particularly tube pre's).

 

My SS line-stage, does not like Balanced power ? But my CDP's, DAC's, tuner (Analog) and tube preamps: WOW !

(Resolution, particularly in the ultra critical first six octaves (to 1,280 Hz.) is incredible. Once signal definition/clarity improves, so do subjective interpretations such as sound-staging, dimensionality, nuance retrieval and, naturally, improved micro & macro swings and dynamics.)

 

As a mechanical device, it should provide trouble-free service for decades!

 

Check out Equi=tech offerings --new or used. Other's such as Torus utilize a non center-tapped IT (as other brands), for reasons not entirely clear to me. However, Torus/Bryston IT's can sound remarkable with power amplifiers --with the appropriate sized unit/transformer.  

 

Simply put, the output impedance of larger IT's is often considerably less than that of a typical AC wall outlet, enabling large swings of instantaneous current.

 

pj      

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  • 2 weeks later...

 

 

I realize this thread may be on its last leg, but I wanted to thank you all for your assistance in helping this newbie make some remarkable improvements in my SQ.  

 

I ended up ordering three Isolation Transformers (and returning two of them), and A/B testing them all.  (I did so using the Tripp Lite Outlet strip SS3612, the one without surge protection, with everything plugged into it).  

 

These are the transformers I compared:  Tripp Lite IS1800HG, Topaz 91001-22 1kVA 0.001pF, and Topaz 91018-32 1.8kVA 0.0005pF.  

 

I found that the Tripp Lite yielded only marginally better SQ than plugging directly into the wall.  The 0.001pF Topaz sound was a major improvement over the Tripp Lite.  The 0.0005pF Topaz sound was a noticeable step up in clarity from the 0.001pF Topaz.  I realize that the smaller Topaz has less potential for high current draws, but even with quiet listening, the larger Topaz with 0.0005pF offered a much broader soundstage and greater depth. To me the difference was startling.  If I were to give them each a SQ Score (scale 1-10, poor to incredible), I would rank them…
AC Mains—4
Tripp Lite—4.5
Topaz 0.001pF—7
Topaz 0.0005pF—8

 

In the end I returned both the Tripp Lite and the Topaz 91002-22, and am delighted with the sound I am getting out of the Topaz 91018-32.  

 

My take home?  The Topaz 0.0005pF IT gave me significantly better sound than either the Tripp Lite Hospital Grade IT or the Topaz 0.001pF unit.  The difference is enough for me to recommend upgrading to the 0.0005pF unit from either of the other units.  


BTW, this is a listing of the specs and details on the 0.0005pF Topaz transformers… http://www.pacificparts.com/vends/mge/images/t1.pdf

 

Lastly, I tried inserting a B&K Precision 1604A IT with a floating secondary into my system.  First I tried it upstream from my CD player (modified with a dedicated linear power supply) and could notice no difference.  I then tried it upstream from my Freya preamplifier.  Here I noticed a small but significant improvement in SQ.  (On my scale of 1-10, I would rate it 8.5).  In doing so however, I discovered that the 1604A significantly stepped up the secondary voltage (from 124V to 130V).  This was too high for my comfort, so I added an APC LE1200 voltage regulator upstream from the Topaz unit and set the regulator at 107V.  With this setup, my sound is magic.  

 

Thanks again to you all.  
Ben
 

 

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On 7/12/2017 at 1:11 PM, lmitche said:

YashN, you're back!  We have you been?

 

I'm around, just busy with projects left and right, including a lot of work in the studio, i.e. mostly with synths.

Dedicated Line DSD/DXD | Audirvana+ | iFi iDSD Nano | SET Tube Amp | Totem Mites

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DIY: SET Tube Amp | Low-Noise Linear Regulated Power Supply | USB, Power, Speaker Cables | Speaker Stands | Acoustic Panels

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2 hours ago, archtype said:

 

 

I realize this thread may be on its last leg,

 

I don't think so: the subject is deep.

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On 7/12/2017 at 0:15 PM, marce said:

Its not a hard measurement, I presume Amir has done some measurements that have upset you on a personal level judging by your willingness to attack him at every opportunity.

 

I conclude therefore that you are incapable of showing his numerous and blatant mistakes in his so-called measurements.

 

Better called mis-measurements, over at the audiosciencemockery forum. Feel free to join there, and do us all a favour too, stay there.

Dedicated Line DSD/DXD | Audirvana+ | iFi iDSD Nano | SET Tube Amp | Totem Mites

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On 7/13/2017 at 4:00 AM, Fokus said:

 

Well ... Amir occasionally shows that he does not fully understand the nature of things such as FFTs, and this impacts his measurement strategies and his conclusions. That AP should better be operated by someone else.

 

Not just that: he can't even do proper measurements, just boasts about having a lot of equipment.

 

Lot of money, lot of measurement gear, still can't buy any competence in measuring and grounding properly first though.

Dedicated Line DSD/DXD | Audirvana+ | iFi iDSD Nano | SET Tube Amp | Totem Mites

Surround: VLC | M-Audio FastTrack Pro | Mac Opt | Panasonic SA-HE100 | Logitech Z623

DIY: SET Tube Amp | Low-Noise Linear Regulated Power Supply | USB, Power, Speaker Cables | Speaker Stands | Acoustic Panels

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On 7/12/2017 at 4:13 PM, Johnseye said:

 

Well I'll at least give him kudos for conducting the test and providing measurements.  

 

This is ridiculous.

 

What you should do instead is ask yourself whether the measurements were well-made at all.

 

Do you know?

Dedicated Line DSD/DXD | Audirvana+ | iFi iDSD Nano | SET Tube Amp | Totem Mites

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Speaking of isolation transformers, I found that my 2 channel setup was using no where near a tenth of the power my Topaz 2.5kVA isolation transformer could provide. So I decided to wire it to do balanced power which would make it a 1.25kVa balanced isolation transformer.

 

Before plugging anything in, I measured: hot to ground and got 62vdc; neutral to ground and got 62vdc; and hot to neutral and got 124vdc. My "Kill A Watt" measured 124vdc as well. So plugged components in one at time and all worked as expected.

 

The first thing I noticed was that the Topaz is now silent. No more audible buzz. The second thing I noticed was that it ran much cooler. Theoretically, the power line noise should be reduced even more. I can't say that I hear any difference...but I can't say that I don't. If there is a difference, it is certainly subtle. However, the difference running without the isolation transformer is not subtle. I still say the biggest gain my system gained in sound quality was when I first put everything on the audio side on the same power strip plugged into the Topaz isolation transformer.

 

Anyway, going to balanced power has been an interesting experiment. I have a second Topaz isolation transformer that I can use to test for sound quality differences at a later date. For now, I am content.

 

 

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8 hours ago, YashN said:

 

This is ridiculous.

 

What you should do instead is ask yourself whether the measurements were well-made at all.

 

Do you know?

 

I probably know as much as you whether his measurements were "well-made". I asked you to elaborate on why you called his measurements pseudo science 2 weeks ago and am still waiting for your reply.  Here it is again.

 

I'm not sure why you would call the measurements he took pseudo science, and what he did wrong.  Please elaborate.

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8 hours ago, Speed Racer said:

Speaking of isolation transformers, I found that my 2 channel setup was using no where near a tenth of the power my Topaz 2.5kVA isolation transformer could provide. So I decided to wire it to do balanced power which would make it a 1.25kVa balanced isolation transformer.

 

Before plugging anything in, I measured: hot to ground and got 62vdc; neutral to ground and got 62vdc; and hot to neutral and got 124vdc. My "Kill A Watt" measured 124vdc as well. So plugged components in one at time and all worked as expected.

 

The first thing I noticed was that the Topaz is now silent. No more audible buzz. The second thing I noticed was that it ran much cooler. Theoretically, the power line noise should be reduced even more. I can't say that I hear any difference...but I can't say that I don't. If there is a difference, it is certainly subtle. However, the difference running without the isolation transformer is not subtle. I still say the biggest gain my system gained in sound quality was when I first put everything on the audio side on the same power strip plugged into the Topaz isolation transformer.

 

Anyway, going to balanced power has been an interesting experiment. I have a second Topaz isolation transformer that I can use to test for sound quality differences at a later date. For now, I am content.

 

 

Nice report there. Not putting words in your mouth,  did the bass feel more presence and quieter background? 

 

On a better note, the Transformer in balanced mode still delivers 2kVA on the output. If the temperature went down, the balanced network removed what was responsible,  my guess would be harmonics from the load. The closer the two voltages are to each other to ground, the better the harmonic reduction. 

 

Since there is no neutral in the strict sense, but two live conductors,  a GFCI needs to be fitted on the output of the Transformer.  Now there are GFCI with markings for line and neutral, don't use those. There are 2 pole RCBO that will do the job properly and protect the Transformer from overloads,  and sadly they are about 10 times the price of a regular GFCI. 

 

Hook up the kill a watt again and crank the system really loud, and measure the amps. It might work out to be 6.5A. Choose a 10A RCBO for economy, or 20A to go the full hog of the Transformer,  up to you. 

 

Don't worry, the RCBO won't trip on a large audio transient.

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9 hours ago, Speed Racer said:

Speaking of isolation transformers, I found that my 2 channel setup was using no where near a tenth of the power my Topaz 2.5kVA isolation transformer could provide. So I decided to wire it to do balanced power which would make it a 1.25kVa balanced isolation transformer.

 

Before plugging anything in, I measured: hot to ground and got 62vdc; neutral to ground and got 62vdc; and hot to neutral and got 124vdc. My "Kill A Watt" measured 124vdc as well. So plugged components in one at time and all worked as expected.

 

The first thing I noticed was that the Topaz is now silent. No more audible buzz. The second thing I noticed was that it ran much cooler. Theoretically, the power line noise should be reduced even more. I can't say that I hear any difference...but I can't say that I don't. If there is a difference, it is certainly subtle. However, the difference running without the isolation transformer is not subtle. I still say the biggest gain my system gained in sound quality was when I first put everything on the audio side on the same power strip plugged into the Topaz isolation transformer.

 

Anyway, going to balanced power has been an interesting experiment. I have a second Topaz isolation transformer that I can use to test for sound quality differences at a later date. For now, I am content.

 

 

 

How did you wire it to do balanced power?

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50 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

How did you wire it to do balanced power?

 

I searched on the Internet for a while and found this:

 

Input:
Neutral (white) to H1
Hot (black) to H4
Ground to chassis
Jumper H2 to H3

Output:
Hot 1 (white) to X1
Hot 2 (black) to X4
Jumper X2 to X3 and connect to chassis ground and outlet ground.
 

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1 hour ago, One and a half said:

Nice report there. Not putting words in your mouth,  did the bass feel more presence and quieter background? 

 

On a better note, the Transformer in balanced mode still delivers 2kVA on the output. If the temperature went down, the balanced network removed what was responsible,  my guess would be harmonics from the load. The closer the two voltages are to each other to ground, the better the harmonic reduction. 

 

Since there is no neutral in the strict sense, but two live conductors,  a GFCI needs to be fitted on the output of the Transformer.  Now there are GFCI with markings for line and neutral, don't use those. There are 2 pole RCBO that will do the job properly and protect the Transformer from overloads,  and sadly they are about 10 times the price of a regular GFCI. 

 

Hook up the kill a watt again and crank the system really loud, and measure the amps. It might work out to be 6.5A. Choose a 10A RCBO for economy, or 20A to go the full hog of the Transformer,  up to you. 

 

Don't worry, the RCBO won't trip on a large audio transient.

 

Thanks for the information.  Is something like this what I am looking for:

 

http://www.graybar.com/store/en/gb/circuit-guard-automatic-set-15a-125v-portable-gfci-line-cord-18-in-l-92138873

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2 hours ago, Speed Racer said:

 

Thanks for the information.  Is something like this what I am looking for:

 

http://www.graybar.com/store/en/gb/circuit-guard-automatic-set-15a-125v-portable-gfci-line-cord-18-in-l-92138873

That item is not suitable for after the Transformer,  but after the RCBO.

 

Something like this, will need a box and cable and wiring. DIY not recommended.

With USA compliance the leakage current is around 10ma, not sure maybe @Speedskater can advise.

 

https://au.rs-online.com/mobile/p/mcbs/7721303/

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2 hours ago, Speed Racer said:

 

Thanks for the information.  Is something like this what I am looking for:

 

http://www.graybar.com/store/en/gb/circuit-guard-automatic-set-15a-125v-portable-gfci-line-cord-18-in-l-92138873

Also don't plug in lamps, or any other appliances into the balanced supply, unless the on off switch cuts both lines at the same time.

AS Profile Equipment List        Say NO to MQA

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