Jud Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Hi barry what do you think of this statement from Keith Cleversley;High Sample Rates De-Mystified - WaveFront Mastering Not Barry, but I note Cleversley's remarks completely ignore the details of what happens inside nearly all DACs. This seems an odd thing to do. There is also the old trope about "If you hear differences, it means your DAC is broken." Yep, just like speakers or cartridges or amps, if you hear more details, it's broken. Oh, wait.... One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
oso Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Thanks a lot for your answer. Maybe this would make an interesting thread in it self. Keith Cleverly is a mastering engineer at Wave Front Mastering: WaveFront Mastering - Professional Online Mastering by Keith Cleversley Link to comment
bdiament Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Not Barry, but I note Cleversley's remarks completely ignore the details of what happens inside nearly all DACs. This seems an odd thing to do. There is also the old trope about "If you hear differences, it means your DAC is broken." Yep, just like speakers or cartridges or amps, if you hear more details, it's broken. Oh, wait.... Hi Jud, Personally, with regard to this particular characteristic of a recording, I don't think the DAC's action matters as it is really about the ADC. The DAC will either let us know what the ADC captured or it won't, but it is the ADC--along with the analog stage that precedes it--that is doing the capture. (And I'm not talking about oversampling as one can apply it all they want to a 44.1k recording, using any converters you like, and never, ever, in my experience, get within a galaxy of what proper 192k can do.) I do know what you mean about the gear being "broken." I've heard this time and again when speaking of differences in the sound of cables or between a .flac and the raw PCM source file: "must be an issue with the playback chain" -- to which my response is that I am unfortunate in that my gear is not "good" enough to obscure the differences. ;-} (And my taste buds must be "flawed" too: Night Train just doesn't taste like Dom Perignon.) There is something I'd want to add to my last post, with regard to "vertical resolution" and word length, where I said " To my ears, a 24-bit delivery format allows for *much* better delineation of low level information that is either coarsened or entirely obliterated with a 16-bit delivery format." That is that what 24-bit offers is real dynamic range. I've often said that the signal-to-noise ratio of 16-bit (~96 db) is often erroneously used to describe its dynamic range. These are not the same thing, simply because at the lower levels, 16-bit can no longer exhibit a clean signal: instrumental harmonics are bleached, spatial information is clouded, and reverb tails simply die an unnaturally short death. Contrary to claims from some quarters (not from folks who are actually listening), dither doesn't help. Dither is down at the least significant bit but the issues with 16-bit occur high above this in level. To my ears, 16-bit doesn't really have an *honest* dynamic range of more than 20 or 30 dB and *that* is only when one isn't listening "seriously" (at which time the limitations will come in even sooner). So I certainly agree with Mr. Cleversley's assertions about the importance of longer word length. Where I differ is that I find the higher sample rates at least as important, not less so. Please note, here again, I'm talking about the *recording* not what the DAC is doing during playback. The latter can, in my view, only determine how much of what was originally captured we get to hear (or not). Best regards, Barry Soundkeeper Recordings http://www.soundkeeperrecordings.wordpress.com Barry Diament Audio MrMoM 1 Link to comment
tailspn Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 BTW, any chance of having available Massimo Gon's Liszt recording in NativeDSD download site? I'm behind this recording since a long time and nobody sells the DSD format or the physical SACD! Thanks, Roch Hi Roch, Do you mean this recording:? SA-CD.net - Liszt: Grandes Etudes pour le Piano - Massimo Gon I'll contact Marco Lincetto and inquire if he's interested in offering his DSD recorded catalog on nativedsd. Tom Link to comment
elcorso Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 Hi Roch, Do you mean this recording:? SA-CD.net - Liszt: Grandes Etudes pour le Piano - Massimo Gon I'll contact Marco Lincetto and inquire if he's interested in offering his DSD recorded catalog on nativedsd. Tom Hi Tom, Yes, this is it! Many thanks, Roch Link to comment
Milan Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 Barry, you sell what you love and believe in (as well as giving it away, for example instructions for economical isolation), but you do not try to tell others what they can hear or should enjoy. I see that as a difference between you and Dr. Waldrep. Something else I see as a difference is that my perception of the reason Dr. Waldrep does this (tell others what they can hear or should enjoy) is to intentionally foment controversy in aid of marketing. I remember way back when I was buying my first high end stuff, the guy who had the best "ear" and sold the best sounding equipment was also the guy who didn't criticize other dealers. When I'd walk into a shop and hear more about what and from whom I shouldn't buy than what was good in that guy's shop, it inevitably was accompanied by a disappointing listening experience. I'm not naive enough to think products sell themselves, but dissing others' products shows me you lack confidence in the ability of yours to compete on their own merits. In all fairness, Mark Waldrep posted his statements on his own site, one of us(PAP) posted it here. Link to comment
buffalobill Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 As a consumer, I can' ignore all the consistent articles written by audio engineers at McIntosh, Bryston, Ayre, Benchmark, Berkeley, Daniel Hertz, Dan Lavry, and several others that PCM is better than DSD. Unless one's hearing is impaired the notion that some audiophile bloggers can hear things other audiophiles can't hear is just self-serving and total baloney. MrMoM 1 Link to comment
elcorso Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 As a consumer, I can' ignore all the consistent articles written by audio engineers at McIntosh, Bryston, Ayre, Benchmark, Berkeley, Daniel Hertz, Dan Lavry, and several others that PCM is better than DSD. Unless one's hearing is impaired the notion that some audiophile bloggers can hear things other audiophiles can't hear is just self-serving and total baloney. I could accept your reasoning if based on your own taste. What about if I tell you that McIntosh, Bryston, Ayre, Benchmark, Berkeley, Daniel Hertz, Dan Lavry has economic interests, and, of course their own taste. If you like PCM better is OK for me and a lot of DSD lovers. Believing that other music lovers can't hear (discern) "things" that you can't , could be just self-serving and total baloney (following your way to deduce and think, not mine). Roch Link to comment
Paul R Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 Hah - I must say, Paul McGowan's column the other day really really is appropriate here. By the way, I do think that trusting someone else's ears, instead of your own, most especially in a contentious subject area like this is a sure fire way to disappoint yourself. YMMV! Threatening | PS Audio ThreateningJuly 11, 2015 by Paul McGowan There’s an intriguing dynamic in people; feeling threatened by other beliefs. We just launched the NuWave DSD, a great and economical entry level DAC. No sooner was it released when we get a note from a well known engineer proclaiming DSD a sham, a Sony storage mechanism pulling the wool over unsuspecting eyes. We are told by this engineer that before too long the blindfold will be removed and we’ll finally understand what a scam DSD is!!! And, of course, we’re among the evil people perpetrating the ruse. First, of course, the person is completely misguided and incorrect. DSD is a format (not a storage medium) that uses pulse density modulation where PCM is another format that uses pulse code modulation. They both have their benefits and problems; neither is perfect. I like and listen to both, though my preference leans towards DSD as closer to analog than PCM. But I do not get angry over the situation and question why anyone would take this personally. Similarly I do not understand why people are threatened with tattoos, or piercings. Are they something I would ever consider? No, but I don’t feel threatened by them. That segment of the population feels compelled to stand out against the norm. When I was a lad some of us grew our hair long, smoked pot and listened to rock and roll, much to the horror of our parents. I don’t typically feel threatened by other beliefs or viewpoints when they do not affect me. But getting worked up over PCM or DSD? Really? I understand feeling threatened when our homes, children, livelihoods, or safety are at stake. But personal beliefs and practices that do not affect others? I guess I just don’t get it. Maybe I am being shallow or don’t want to look. Thoughts? Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC. Robert A. Heinlein Link to comment
buffalobill Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 One could end up in the the crazy house trying to keep up with and make any sense of the proliferation and far-out philosophical articles that Paul McGowan writes. Linking DSD and tattoos is a good example of why you can't take McGowan serious. Link to comment
Jud Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 One could end up in the the crazy house trying to keep up with and make any sense of the proliferation and far-out philosophical articles that Paul McGowan writes. Linking DSD and tattoos is a good example of why you can't take McGowan serious. Well then, it appears you ought not to purchase DSD files. Good, that's settled now. One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
Paul R Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 One could end up in the the crazy house trying to keep up with and make any sense of the proliferation and far-out philosophical articles that Paul McGowan writes. Linking DSD and tattoos is a good example of why you can't take McGowan serious. Oh, you mean you disagree with him? Shame, as PS audio makes some great sounding gear based upon those ideas. Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC. Robert A. Heinlein Link to comment
buffalobill Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 PS audio makes some great sounding gear based upon those ideas. I agree, I now see the link between tattoos and quality audio products. Link to comment
Paul R Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 I agree, I now see the link between tattoos and quality audio products. But you missed the connection that Audiophiles who feel threatened by DSD are having the same illogical reaction other people, who are threatened by body ink, have? (grin) I have seen people cross the street to avoid walking past heavily tattooed people. I have seen audiophiles react virtually the same way to anyone who says DSD is great! (/grin) Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC. Robert A. Heinlein Link to comment
PAP Posted July 13, 2015 Author Share Posted July 13, 2015 DSD or PCM CD or LP tube or transistor religious beliefs or atheism ................. or the name of the game; What does it sound like, baby? Link to comment
christian u Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 link;Sound Liaison Music Shop These are interesting files for this discussion; This Music Sampler download contains 3 songs in 3 different formats, DSD (dsf), PCM and FLAC, so in total 9 audio files. Link to comment
YashN Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 [ATTACH=CONFIG]19762[/ATTACH]link;Sound Liaison Music ShopThese are interesting files for this discussion; Got them. Very cool set of free DSD files (with the other formats). My preference is DSD in my system. Dedicated Line DSD/DXD | Audirvana+ | iFi iDSD Nano | SET Tube Amp | Totem Mites Surround: VLC | M-Audio FastTrack Pro | Mac Opt | Panasonic SA-HE100 | Logitech Z623 DIY: SET Tube Amp | Low-Noise Linear Regulated Power Supply | USB, Power, Speaker Cables | Speaker Stands | Acoustic Panels Link to comment
jabbr Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 If I start with a 24/192 wav file and use HQPlayer to listen with SDM 512 -> DAC, am I listening to PCM or DSD? If the former then this is all an argument for the recording and mastering engineers. If the latter then it depends on the DAC. Custom room treatments for headphone users. Link to comment
YashN Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 If I start with a 24/192 wav file and use HQPlayer to listen with SDM 512 -> DAC, am I listening to PCM or DSD? If the former then this is all an argument for the recording and mastering engineers. If the latter then it depends on the DAC. That's a very good point. In my system, I do prefer DSD256 for the whole chain. Next to that, PCM, from RedBook to higher rates up-converted to DSD128 offline sound great too. Hence, I am inclined to conclude that it is the filter implementation for DSD that gets my preference (in my system). The higher rates allow for gentler filtering which have great SQ compared to the brick-wall filtering we are subjected to with RedBook. Now, for a proper comparison with pure PCM playback, I should really try something like PeterSt's Phasure NOS1a or other multi-bit or pure R2R implementations at the DAC. Dedicated Line DSD/DXD | Audirvana+ | iFi iDSD Nano | SET Tube Amp | Totem Mites Surround: VLC | M-Audio FastTrack Pro | Mac Opt | Panasonic SA-HE100 | Logitech Z623 DIY: SET Tube Amp | Low-Noise Linear Regulated Power Supply | USB, Power, Speaker Cables | Speaker Stands | Acoustic Panels Link to comment
PAP Posted July 19, 2015 Author Share Posted July 19, 2015 That's a very good point. In my system, I do prefer DSD256 for the whole chain. Next to that, PCM, from RedBook to higher rates up-converted to DSD128 offline sound great too. Got them. Very cool set of free DSD files (with the other formats). My preference is DSD in my system. Did you upsample the files to DSD256? Link to comment
YashN Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 Did you upsample the files to DSD256? Haven't yet tried that - space is going to be an even bigger issue, but my DAC does do native DSD256. Dedicated Line DSD/DXD | Audirvana+ | iFi iDSD Nano | SET Tube Amp | Totem Mites Surround: VLC | M-Audio FastTrack Pro | Mac Opt | Panasonic SA-HE100 | Logitech Z623 DIY: SET Tube Amp | Low-Noise Linear Regulated Power Supply | USB, Power, Speaker Cables | Speaker Stands | Acoustic Panels Link to comment
YashN Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 If I start with a 24/192 wav file and use HQPlayer to listen with SDM 512 -> DAC, am I listening to PCM or DSD? If the former then this is all an argument for the recording and mastering engineers. If the latter then it depends on the DAC. Another thing about that is you are also listening to the ADC and the filters of the recording chain with PCM (brickwall for RedBook, none for DSD). Dedicated Line DSD/DXD | Audirvana+ | iFi iDSD Nano | SET Tube Amp | Totem Mites Surround: VLC | M-Audio FastTrack Pro | Mac Opt | Panasonic SA-HE100 | Logitech Z623 DIY: SET Tube Amp | Low-Noise Linear Regulated Power Supply | USB, Power, Speaker Cables | Speaker Stands | Acoustic Panels Link to comment
PAP Posted July 22, 2015 Author Share Posted July 22, 2015 [ATTACH=CONFIG]19762[/ATTACH]link;Sound Liaison Music ShopThese are interesting files for this discussion; Got them. Very cool set of free DSD files (with the other formats). My preference is DSD in my system. Hi YashN I see you have the nano, are you considering upgrading to the idac2 or do you find the nano sufficient for DSD playback? Link to comment
PAP Posted August 24, 2015 Author Share Posted August 24, 2015 Hi YashNI see you have the nano, are you considering upgrading to the idac2 or do you find the nano sufficient for DSD playback? Or are the DAC's inside identical? Link to comment
PAP Posted July 29, 2018 Author Share Posted July 29, 2018 On 7/15/2015 at 9:19 PM, christian u said: link;Sound Liaison Music Shop These are interesting files for this discussion; There is a newer version; https://www.soundliaison.com/index.php/6-compare-formats Link to comment
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