Computer audio vs high end traditional.

[cfmsp]

 

I didn't realize you were as knowledgeable as you seem to be, given that you've only posted a handful of posts thus far. Apologies if my post came in nearer the ground than was appropriate.

 

So, to provide the counterpoint to my own earlier comments, it seems fairly well established that S/PDIF is rather sensitive to cables. Some would say overly sensitive. Perhaps those preferring AES/EBU do so to gain more consistent results? Apparently the cable's ability to impact the sound (more so than say, Firewire) is due to mixing clock info with the digital bits when transmitting according to the AES3 spec (via AES/EBU, S/PDIF & TOSlink), and thereby subjecting the timing info to potential degradation.

 

thanks for your response

clay

 

 

 

[bordin]

Don't worry Clay. I just got my Lynx adapter so I'm a newbie here !

 

I'm not a technical person but just want to learn. There are a lot of discrepancies around, from words of mouth to audio ads. The forum is a mean to help us learn. Just be open-minded. Big thanx to Chris !!

 

Any comment is very welcome, but constructive please. ;-)

 

Cheers,

 

PS I think kids are reading the forum, but they may wonder what kind of audiophiles that spend $5,000 on a PC audio system as opposed to their iPods. ;-)

 

[ciamara]

Hey guys,

 

SPDIF is the consumer version, running at 75Ohm. AES/EBU is the professional standard running at 110Ohm. For short cable runs, the two are functionally equivalent. It is similar to comparing singled ended analog RCA cables to XLR (or TRS) balanced cables. The higher signal strength, combined with the third pin, enable you to run much longer cable lengths without signal degradation. In our showroom, we have a 30-foot run from the Lynx card to the DAC in the main listening room. While it is possible to get very good results with a high quality 30-foot SPDIF cable, we chose to go AES/EBU, as you can easily run these for 100s of feet without issue. Hence, we bought a Lynx card and the AES/EBU cable. The results are fantastic.

 

If you are interested, there is a very well-written article on the skin effect (http://lavryengineering.com/forum_images/SE.pdf). It comes from the Lavry forum. I like Dan for his honest approach to communication with people. He speaks like a true engineer. According to Dan, any design must involve tradeoffs. And while an effect may be measurable, is it material or important? Certainly a drop of acid in your eye will hurt, but a drop of acid in the swimming pool won't make a damn difference. Hopefully that makes sense ... sorry ... in a rush today. Very busy with demos!

 

 

[bordin]

Sanjay, thanks for the note.

 

Have you compared short v.s. long AES/EBU cables ? Which brand the AES/EBU cable is it ?

 

In theory, differential transmission is immune to EMI noise while a long distance may still introduce jitter. I wonder you do hear the "long-cable" effects from your 30-foot AES/EBU cable, compare to the standard breakout cable, CBL-AES1604.

 

Thanks.

 

 

 

[ciamara]

I have not actually done such tests myself. I have relied on input from several people who have (our engineers and a few friends in mixing/recording studios).

 

I did, however, personally compare a budget 30-foot SPDIF cable with a 30-foot Apogee Wyde-Eye AES/EBU cable. Not a rigorous comparison -- two different brands, two different standards, and two different sources (Lynx AES16e vs. CD transport) -- but the improvement was definitely noticeable.

 

Our engineer compared a 10 foot cheapo SPDIF cable (from Live Wire) and compared that with a DH Labs SPDIF cable of the same length (Disclaimer: we carry DH Labs). It was running between a Lavry DA11 DAC and a Pioneer CDJ 1000 MK3. He said the improvement was very obvious.

 

You mention the "long cable effect." I seriously doubt it. 30 feet for AES/EBU is very short. But I may try it later to satisfy my curiosity. Thanks and all the best!

 

[bordin]

Hi Sanjay,

 

Just drop a line. Have you had a chance to compare DAC2's AES v.s. Firewire inputs yet ?

 

 

[cfmsp]

 

Sanjay might not yet have regained posting privileges.

 

A thread which discussed the shoot-out exists on Audio Circle forums, in the NY Rave circle.

 

I know the Weiss DAC2 was preferred over the Lavry and Berkeley by the attendees, but I cannot recall whether the Weiss was tested via Firewire or just AES/EBU . The other two are not Firewire capable. There was an issue installing the Firewire drivers for the Sonic box. There were also many comments to the effect that Sanjay's loudspeakers were too large for their current room.

 

clay

 

[bordin]

Thanks Clay for the note. :-)

 

[ciamara]

Hi everyone. A couple of clarifications:

 

1. The speakers we had here for the NY Audio Rave were indeed large (1 x 18" TAD 1801 sub-bass driver, 2 x 15" TAD 1603 midrange drivers and 1 x 2" TAD 2001 compression driver). We moved the system from a 2000 square foot showroom to a 1000 square foot room. Contrary to what one individual thought, they image incredibly well in this room at all frequencies. Certainly some of the top engineers attending AES in New York last week felt this way, including two Grammy-winning mix engineers and two different manufacturers of the DACs we are taking about here.

 

2. The listeners at the NY Audio Rave event did not find any one of the DACs to be a clear winner -- it came down to personal preferences and program material for almost everyone. I'll refrain from sharing our opinions on the different DACs here. If people are interested, we're easy to reach.

 

3. I don't think you can draw any conclusions from this event re: Firewire vs. PCIe>AES/EBU. Everyone focused their attention on the DACs themselves and did not pay attention to the interface comparison. We did connect the Weiss DAC2 via Firewire, though.

 

[kana813]

See:

 

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=70971.0

 

[cfmsp]

 

for those interested in the remarks on the sound at the NY Rave, just skip ahead to page 3 of the comments at the link Dan posted.

 

 

 

[manisandher]

So, was there any validity in this so-called comparison of DACs at all? Or was this simply a (very, very poor!) marketing stunt from Sanjay?

 

And Sanjay is the 'Chief Executive Officer' of what exactly? Computer generated images of 'virtual' products, from what I can gather from his website!

 

Am I the only one who has found this all very strange?

 

Mani.

 

[manisandher]

Seems I've upset Sanjay.

 

Chris, feel free to delete my previous post if you deem it unfit.

 

Mani.

 

[jb8312]

I used a Cary 306 Pro for both my CDP and DAC; I end up listening to my computer files 95% of the time and enjoy it very very much....

 

See system as detailed below....