Equipment isolation and vibration damping.

[YashN]

Hi Dave,

The "problem" here is that you are speaking from direct experience as opposed to not having any experience with this, theorizing a lot (often erroneously),

 

I've seen you theorising erroneously too and I pointed this out as John Swenson did too ('curvature is needed for isolation'), and Daudio made the same mistake (not surprising here at all).

 

and simply repeating what others have said as if you discovered it.

 

Yet, you've been doing this for years yourself. At least you mentioned your real sources once here of all the same re-hashing I've seen in several forums (some fawning elements erroneously think you invented this).

 

Now who am I going to believe about how the water feels: Someone who has spent some good time swimming? Or someone who might have (or might not have) dipped their toe in once? ;-}

 

Perhaps you should believe someone who has researched and then tells you not to swim in these waters because there are sharks there?

 

My experience matches yours: the air bearing works well vertically and doesn't do much horizontally. To be clear, it might be more than zero in the horizontal plane but it is essentially close enough to zero that this is how I think of it.

 

Which is what I was saying... The action is predominantly vertical (first post in this thread for those who read carefully and understand logical and rational thought), but it still has the other degrees of freedom, so it moves in all of them but to a lesser extent than the vertical action.

 

And rotationally, does even less.

 

But it still moves in those directions too.

[YashN]

I have reversed the order under my DAC and my pre amp and am listening for a while.

 

Looking forward to your comparative listening impressions.

[Daudio]

I thought I'd share some photos of one of my experimental roller ball and tube setups...this one for my Auralic Aries using glass double concave lenses, 1/2" roller balls, 1/2" aluminum plate, a 12" tube, and an IKEA bamboo board. I think the aluminum plate is too thick, 1/4" would be lighter.

 

It is very "wiggly" yet it centers nicely. I'm happy with the results...

 

John,

 

Very nice looking setup with some interesting components ! That "wiggly" thing sounds like you have achieved a high level of isolation

 

I had a thought about the glass lenses used as bowl blocks. Symposium's flagship Series2 devices have recesses carved into the bottom of the blocks, and then they are partially filled with a damping material. You could conceivably fill the bottom concavity of each lens with some damping substance, similar to the Series2. I suspect that might ameliorate any tendency for the glass to 'ring' or add a subtle hardness to the highs, as others have reported (through in other applications of glass).

 

Let us know the results (if any), if you decide to give it a try.

[Daudio]

The ceramic bowls and plates have arrived from Thailand. They are porcelain. The photos demonstrate that the ball bearings slide to the edges of the plates. Obviously the platform isn't perfectly leveled. But that is realistic. I don't think the bearings are in the linear part of the plates and thus these won't be an ideal vibration isolation platform. The bowls are OK but aren't perfectly spherical. I think that ceramic bowls could be further investigated but would need to be produced to a more exact specification.

 

jabbr,

 

My porcelain 'platters' arrived a couple of days ago. They must have been on a different boat then yours I think it was you that originally posted about these products, so I thank you for calling them to my attention !

 

I like the size and shape of them, with the raised rim to contain the ball. And the ceramic and glaze are stiff and smooth. But the quality of the clay molds and glazing process are about what one would expect for a purely representational product

 

The interior surface is not 'flat' but has small dents and ripples, and the glaze shows little pinholes in the surface (probably from bubbles in the glaze before firing). The low quality (for our purposes) is about what I had expected, but I had hoped for more. I decided to take a chance on the 'flat' platters, but wouldn't bother with them for bowls - far too inaccurate concentricity for me.

 

But I am going to give then a try anyway ! The package of 6 matches the 6 acrylic bowls and balls I have waiting to go back under my 2 12" Velodyne subwoofers. But I will have to use 1/2" balls, instead of my prefered 3/8". After grinding the bases flat, and washing any residue off these little ceramic parts, I'll place them on top of the bowl/balls, and lower the sub onto a set of 3 of these assemblies. That will make it easier to do the initial setup then the way I did it before. And it will come close to matching the setup under my main speaker, which have 4" sq. glazed bathroom tiles on top of the SS balls.

 

 

The main thing I worry about with this new setup is that the balls might get stuck in a dent/depression in the surface of one or more of the little ceramic platters. My visual inspection didn't see any very bad ones, nor in the center, and I could get the positioning just right to avoid the problem areas. But I'll just have to see how they 'feel', and sound.

 

And if they don't work out, I can probably get a few bucks for them from the Dollhouse furniture store up the street

[Daudio]

I installed and lived with the porcelain 'platters' on top of larger 1/2" SS balls (to clear the platters lip), underneath my two servo subwoofers. They lasted a little over a week in service, and are gone now.

 

I prepped the 'platters' by grinding the rough bases flat, and then washed them off. They were fairly easy to setup by stacking up a set of: bowl block, ball, and (upside down) 'platter'. Then just lowered the sub onto a set of 3 of these assemblies. A little adjustment and it was done. But I didn't like the 'feel' of this isolation system. When I pushed the sub back and forth, it was too stiff, and didn't have the easier feel of my speakers, even with their much greater weight. I believe I could feel a ball getting momentarily stuck in a tiny depression or dent in the surface of the glazed porcelain, which I had noticed in a visual inspection of the parts. They were probably hand made using a simple mold for the clay, and subject to all kinds of small variations in manufacture.

 

This past Friday I removed the 'platters' from under my subs, so that now I have smaller 3/8" balls (preferred) under thin acrylic sheets double stick taped to the bottom of the subwoofer cabinet. At the same time I also fixed the placement and 'floating' of the left electrostat, which had gotten fouled up after reinstallation some weeks back.

 

After I installed the porcelain parts I didn't notice any change in my systems SQ, but then I wasn't very interested or engaged with music for the following week. After I removed them, and fixed the issues with my left speaker, I played lots of music and was very pleased with the bass performance of my system.

 

I consider this an experiment that failed, but was worthwhile to do. Unfortunately I couldn't hold all the audio system variables constant, but it's my living room, not a laboratory. Take what you will from my experience

[rocl444]

I recently found on Aliexpress some "Dampener Balls" for use with aerial photography ans at 8 for $6 I thought they would be worth a try. They have arrived and the 1st thing I noticed was how soft and squishy they are. I think they are made from silicone, and their softness allows them to flex significantly in both horizontal and vertical planes.

I have just placed 3 of them under my server but 1 was fully compressed so I added another one. I will leave them for a week and then take them out and see if I notice a difference.

[InfernoSTi]

I've been emailing Mike at Ingress Engineered Products and discussed modifying his current design to have a 1" wide, shallow bowl. Assuming we can get enough people together for a group buy, he could do either $75 for a set of 6 in 6061 or $150 for a set of 6 in 7075 at 10 sets or $130/set at 20 sets. Interest? I'm interested in the 7075 and would go for 6 sets, I have a friend that would go for a bunch also.

 

Barry, if you have something better, let us know now!

AnotherSpin?

 

Mike now has two different products for sale, the newest being a 2" radius product designed for a 3/8" roller ball and with a higher degree of polish. If you haven't looked in a while, take a look. Ingress Engineered Products

 

John

 

[groovybassist]

I was hoping the original deal with Ingress would work out, but after it fell through, I had the opportunity to pick up two used sets of Stillpoints Ultra Minis. Still more expensive than the original plan, but there's no doubt they make a positive difference between my speakers/stands.

[AnotherSpin]

I am willing to part with 33 custom made alu bowls. Feel free to pm me.

[groovybassist]

Now that I've been exposed to the benefits of Stillpoints, I'll likely continue deploying them in other parts of my system.

[lmf22]

Now that I've been exposed to the benefits of Stillpoints, I'll likely continue deploying them in other parts of my system.

 

Welcome to the club. I started with one set of Stillpoints Ultra SS, and within 6 months I have Stillpoints under all of my components. They sound really good once you have them under the entire system.

[groovybassist]

lmf22:

 

I'm sure they do. Luckily my system/components are all small, so I can get away with the Ultra Minis across the board. May not reach the performance of the higher up the line Stillpoints, but good enough for me.

[kennyb123]

Welcome to the club. I started with one set of Stillpoints Ultra SS, and within 6 months I have Stillpoints under all of my components. They sound really good once you have them under the entire system.

 

+1

[Daudio]

Now that I've been exposed to the benefits of Stillpoints, I'll likely continue deploying them in other parts of my system.

 

Wow, those benefits are expensive !!

 

I like the new offering from Ingress, only $90 for a set of three, compared to what ? $375 ?

 

I like the large radius, polished bowl surface and small ball diameter. I consider all of those characteristics important factors for good isolation performance. Using a good quality stainless steel, or even carbide, balls should result in equal or better isolation performance then the fancy Stillpoints IMHO.

 

I'm considering trying a set to compare with my acrylic bowls. But, frankly, I find it hard to tell much of anything with just one set of isolators. Need to have the whole system outfitted with a particular type to really hear differences between them. Not easy to do

[InfernoSTi]

Mike now has two different products for sale, the newest being a 2" radius product designed for a 3/8" roller ball and with a higher degree of polish. If you haven't looked in a while, take a look. Ingress Engineered Products

 

John

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]21699[/ATTACH]

 

Ingress Engineered Products

 

 

I've received a set of three of these and have to say they are awesome! The finish of the bowl is mirror smooth, the 2" radius is really nice, and the 7075 aluminum is the consensus material of choice. I'm very happy, especially at the $90 price point.

 

John

[groovybassist]

Daudio:

 

The only real way to know if the Ingress bowls will perform as well as the Stillpoints is in a head-to-head comparison. Stillpoints aren't cheap, but they're now a known quantity for me and you can occasionally scoop them up used to save a bit. Guess I'm less interested in experimenting these days vs. paying for someone else's R&D, which I know firsthand benefits my system.

[cjf]

Mike now has two different products for sale, the newest being a 2" radius product designed for a 3/8" roller ball and with a higher degree of polish. If you haven't looked in a while, take a look. Ingress Engineered Products

 

John

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]21699[/ATTACH]

 

Hello,

 

Once you have had a chance to test these out I am interested in hearing your impressions of how well they work. Not sure if you have used other similar devices or not but a comparison is always a plus. Reporting what differences you heard once they were installed would be great.

 

I've looked at these myself but the only thing that concerns me is the size of the bowl being used. Two inches seems like it would allow too much movement of the component and could possibly be easier for an accident to occur. With a two inch bowl, this would allow the component at least 1" of movement in all directions which seems a bit much

 

I would love to see and hear of the results of a test where you place the ball in the center of the bowl and then tap the bowl and see how long the ball continues to wiggle before coming to a complete stop. I've seen a Youtube video of someone doing this test on the Symposium Rollerblocks. If these much lower cost items can wiggle the ball for as long as the Symposium product I may feel inclined to take the plunge on Ingress product.

 

Thanks

[theophile]

This is my first post on this site. I have been interested in equipment isolation for nearly 20 years. About 12 years ago I read Barry Diament's thoughts on combining cups and balls with pneumatic support and tried various combinations of that but found it problematic. Since 2008 I have been using Clearaudio Magix in combination with the cup and ball method. I have posted extensively about this at the AudioKarma site. After buying a mobile phone with a camera this year I was finally able to post photos of my efforts on the AudioKarma site. I thought that you fellows might be interested in my efforts:

 

They say a picture paints a thousand words. | Audiokarma Home Audio Stereo Discussion Forums

[MikeJazz]

This is my first post on this site. I have been interested in equipment isolation for nearly 20 years. About 12 years ago I read Barry Diament's thoughts on combining cups and balls with pneumatic support and tried various combinations of that but found it problematic. Since 2008 I have been using Clearaudio Magix in combination with the cup and ball method. I have posted extensively about this at the AudioKarma site. After buying a mobile phone with a camera this year I was finally able to post photos of my efforts on the AudioKarma site. I thought that you fellows might be interested in my efforts:

 

They say a picture paints a thousand words. | Audiokarma Home Audio Stereo Discussion Forums

 

Thanks for your input. One would need to have an account in audiokarma to see your photos. Any change you can upload those here?

Thanks

[theophile]

Thanks for your input. One would need to have an account in audiokarma to see your photos. Any change you can upload those here?

Thanks

 

Sorry I didn't realise that. AudioKarma has just recently moved over to a new forum format. The previous format allowed anyone to see all of the content.

[jabbr]

Daudio:

 

The only real way to know if the Ingress bowls will perform as well as the Stillpoints is in a head-to-head comparison. Stillpoints aren't cheap, but they're now a known quantity for me and you can occasionally scoop them up used to save a bit. Guess I'm less interested in experimenting these days vs. paying for someone else's R&D, which I know firsthand benefits my system.

 

Sigh... its very difficult to know. I find it rather difficult to do ABX testing between these vibration isolation systems. Personally I have been testing out so many other things that I worry that my brain is fried at hearing small differences ... else I just can't hear every difference, who knows.

 

In any case, I have a set of Ingress bowls to test, and I have a friend testing them. He has shall we say, very strong preferences, and honestly after going through the process I am entirely unsure that I can verify what he is hearing (shall we say), so I am not going to offer my opinion (I don't trust it).

 

I any case the Ingress bowls have either a smaller radius or 2". and the overall diameter is smaller -- the other bowls have a much larger flat ring around the bowl. Probably might add some stability. The Stillpoints and ilk have a slightly smoother surface. Personally if I were going to purchase a large number of these for computer, switch, NAS, the Ingress is a much much better deal. If you really want the Stillpoints maybe under your DAC but I've got everything isolated and Stillpoints get expensive.

 

What I ended up doing is obtained a fairly large number of sets of bowls made by a very high quality (e.g. like stillpoint) process, at a very good price, but unfortunately am not able to publish where i.e. this source is not publicly available and does not want to enter this particular business. My friend also has contacts in the industry who have been able to source various types of metallic-ceramic composite ball bearings ... let's just say they would be very very expensive on the open market ... so he hears these differences that I can't but I'm happy to use what he finds for me:)

 

In any case I do hear a difference in no isolation vs. isolation -- clearly is a benefit, and I do think that these bowls and ball bearings with a marble tile on top are the way to go!

 

We really owe a debt of gratitude to Barry Diament (who I've encouraged to market these himself) for the design. The new Ingress Ingress Engineered Products larger diameter bowls along with 1/2" bearings is what I would use for most applications.

[Forehaven]

thanks for sharing your opinion Jabbr. I"ve been wanting to implement this too ever since Barry started this topic. I just haven't been willing to spend too much; so great to hear your pos. experience with a $90/set. Great price relatively.

[sdolezalek]

This topic just seems to be begging for a viable $100-$150/component type of solution. But all of the commercial solutions are priced more like high-end cables and seem even less able to justify exactly what drives those product costs. Of course there are also literally a dozen or more pages of isolation feet offered on eBay (mostly made in China and at a broad range of prices, with the "mag-lev isolators being particularly popular). See the picture below for some of what is on offer:

 

 

That being said, the individual parts list shouldn't be that expensive: a) very high quality bearings, b) high polish machined cups, and 3) something to contain the cups and bearings. Per Barry Diament's designs you probably want to complement that with some up and down vibration attenuation (like his innertubes).

 

When I look at pictures such as those Theophile posted, the combination of high cost (for the large quantity of ClearAudio feet for one turntable alone) plus the DIY look of the rest of it, I know we can do better.

 

Maybe Barry D will offer us a "productized" and affordable version of his design that enough of us will buy in volume to be producible at an attractive cost?

[Jud]

I believe Barry specifically will not. I could speculate as to the reasons but won't.

 

So someone else will have to do it.

[jabbr]

This topic just seems to be begging for a viable $100-$150/component type of solution. But all of the commercial solutions are priced more like high-end cables and seem even less able to justify exactly what drives those product costs. Of course there are also literally a dozen or more pages of isolation feet offered on eBay (mostly made in China and at a broad range of prices, with the "mag-lev isolators being particularly popular).

...

 

Maybe Barry D will offer us a "productized" and affordable version of his design that enough of us will buy in volume to be producible at an attractive cost?

 

The new Ingress bowls are $90 so at your target price range.

 

Inner tubes are easy to find at Amazon and marble tiles are best sourced locally.

 

 

 

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