HDMI=ISSUES, USB=ISSUES, TOSLINK=ISSUES, WHAT ABOUT DLNA or Network?

[beerandmusic]

Ok so it seems to transport from source to DAC all have issues discussed here in CA threads (USB, HDMI, TOSLINK), but I haven't heard anything wrong with DLNA as far as SQ??

 

I have heard the protocol sucks and doesn't make for a nice interface and is more complicated to configure, but beyond that, what about the actual SQ of transporting of the digital signal to the DAC?

[Pepsican]

Ok so it seems to transport from source to DAC all have issues discussed here in CA threads (USB, HDMI, TOSLINK), but I haven't heard anything wrong with DLNA as far as SQ??

 

I have heard the protocol sucks and doesn't make for a nice interface and is more complicated to configure, but beyond that, what about the actual SQ of transporting of the digital signal to the DAC?

 

DLNA, just like UPnP is a network communication protocol. It is not a transport medium, like USB, HDMI and Toslink are.

 

The problem with DLNA and UPnP is that they are rather loosely defined. So not everything always works seamlessly together like it is supposed to.

[Audio_ELF]

I don't necessarily agree with the sentiments expressed but read ... Antipodes Reference Series DX Music Server Part 2 | AudioStream

[tranz]

One of the best digital (least fatiguing) sound I have heard is through an UPnP/DLNA setup, bypassing the USB and SPDIF.

 

The bubble upnp server improves the user friendliness.

 

It all depends on the implementation though. That whole receiver chip working harder and impacting noise floor discussion is noticeable here too ( wireless vs wired for example)

 

LAN Regen anyone?

[JohnSwenson]

DLNA etc are complex protocols riding on top of Ethernet, which in itself is a fairly complex protocol. This is going the wrong direction. The more complex the protocol the more work has to be done at the DAC which means more noise generated in the DAC to deal with those protocols.

 

I can come up with three requirements:

1) master clock is in DAC, right next to DAC chip(s).

2) protocol is very simple, preferably not bursty packet based.

3) full galvanic isolation

 

S/PDIF coax, I2S, HDMI don't meet #1 or #3

S/PDIF optical meets #2 and #3 but not #1

USB async meets #1 but not #2 or #3

Ethernet solutions meet #1 and #3 but not #2

 

So none of the common interfaces in use today meet all three.

 

So how do you you get something that gets all three?

 

The easiest way is to use optical and do two fibers, one going each direction, one sending the data from the computer to the DAC and one going from the DAC to the computer carrying the clock. If you do this right it works very well.

 

John S.

[beerandmusic]

DLNA, just like UPnP is a network communication protocol. It is not a transport medium, like USB, HDMI and Toslink are.

 

The problem with DLNA and UPnP is that they are rather loosely defined. So not everything always works seamlessly together like it is supposed to.

 

ok, letm me clarify my question to be "what about the actual SQ of transporting of the digital signal to the DAC via ethernet"?

 

I am only asking about SQ issues, never-mind the method and protocol or configuration issues. I just want to know if there are SQ issues in sending the digital signal to the DAC via ethernet, like there are using HDMI, USB, or Toslink.

[beerandmusic]

DLNA etc are complex protocols riding on top of Ethernet, which in itself is a fairly complex protocol. This is going the wrong direction. The more complex the protocol the more work has to be done at the DAC which means more noise generated in the DAC to deal with those protocols.

 

I can come up with three requirements:

1) master clock is in DAC, right next to DAC chip(s).

2) protocol is very simple, preferably not bursty packet based.

3) full galvanic isolation

 

S/PDIF coax, I2S, HDMI don't meet #1 or #3

S/PDIF optical meets #2 and #3 but not #1

USB async meets #1 but not #2 or #3

Ethernet solutions meet #1 and #3 but not #2

 

So none of the common interfaces in use today meet all three.

 

So how do you you get something that gets all three?

 

The easiest way is to use optical and do two fibers, one going each direction, one sending the data from the computer to the DAC and one going from the DAC to the computer carrying the clock. If you do this right it works very well.

 

John S.

 

thanks..i will have to read and digest...but i don't think i will go the optical method since i heard it is limited in resolution?

[beerandmusic]

One of the best digital (least fatiguing) sound I have heard is through an UPnP/DLNA setup, bypassing the USB and SPDIF.

 

The bubble upnp server improves the user friendliness.

 

It all depends on the implementation though. That whole receiver chip working harder and impacting noise floor discussion is noticeable here too ( wireless vs wired for example)

 

LAN Regen anyone?

 

I haven't heard of the bubble upnp server, but when i asked before about free upnp servers, the "onion guy" (i forget his handle) told me to try MinimServer-0.8.3a-install-x64 (and that was EXTREMELY easy to setup and use, and supported dsd also!). The minim server was so easy, i installed it, and just told it the directory for my music, and bingo i was able to see all my music including dsd files on my avr immediately...VERY EASY...i don't need to look further than minim server.

[beerandmusic]

I don't necessarily agree with the sentiments expressed but read ... Antipodes Reference Series DX Music Server Part 2 | AudioStream

 

Thanks...i will have a look.

[tranz]

I haven't heard of the bubble upnp server, but when i asked before about free upnp servers, the "onion guy (i forget his handle) told me to try MinimServer-0.8.3a-install-x64 (and that was EXTREMELY easy to setup and use, and supported dsd also!). The minim server was so easy, i installed it, and just told it the directory for my music, and bingo i was able to see all my music including dsd files on my avr immediately...VERY EASY...i don't need to look further than minim server.

 

Hi beerandmusic,

 

Minimserver is the UPnP server which I use also and find it to be the best one out there. Agree with Cebolla.

 

Bubble UPnP server is badly named as it is not an UPnP server, but a program to run in addition to Minimserver to make an UPnP renderer be used as an OpenHome Media renderer. Playlists work better, Lumin and Linn Kazoo controlls can then be used as well as DS Lightning in OpenHomeMedia mode....better.

[tranz]

thanks..i will have to read and digest...but i don't think i will go the optical method since i heard it is limited in resolution?

 

I think he was talking about a non-existent, potentially ideal, method.

 

There are a few experimenting with good results in using optical network isolation, but that is ethernet. I have ordered some as well to test the impact on SQ having NAS to streamer via fiber.

 

There is the pro optical MADI (which can handle 24/192), but I do not think he was talking about that.

[Superdad]

ok, letm me clarify my question to be "what about the actual SQ of transporting of the digital signal to the DAC via ethernet"?

 

I am only asking about SQ issues, never-mind the method and protocol or configuration issues. I just want to know if there are SQ issues in sending the digital signal to the DAC via ethernet, like there are using HDMI, USB, or Toslink.

 

It is all in HOW it is done. And right now, what passes for an "Ethernet DAC" is in virtually all instances a DAC with a whole processor/renderer interface, wherein it is more that the file is pulled or pushed to it and the DAC usually is a semi-intelligent node on the network--receiving and converting files. That's the DNLA/UPnP model. Ravenna/AES67 may be a little different and more like Airplay or HQ Player's NAA (though that need to run on a computer too) in that the data stream is "pushed" to the Ethernet-attached DAC.

 

As for SQ differences, well mileage will vary. As stated, implementation is everything.

 

--Alex C.