jabbr Posted September 9, 2019 Author Share Posted September 9, 2019 My thinking at this point is that there is no need to get an FMC at this point -- simply use this little switch with an RJ-45 copper SFP port in and an SFP optical SFP port out. You still have 2 SFP(+) ports left over so you can connect both your NAS and your music server. For $130 on Amazon, its hard to beat. https://www.amazon.com/MikroTik-CRS305-1G-4S-Gigabit-Ethernet-RouterOS/dp/B07LFKGP1L/ref=pd_cart_vw_crc_1_3/137-0425635-5167126?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B07LFKGP1L&pd_rd_r=f04b463a-2e34-490a-8988-1993e9891975&pd_rd_w=CkdJf&pd_rd_wg=ploFz&pf_rd_p=9af4a820-d9ab-496c-bf25-8a58e63d3c7b&pf_rd_r=PCPJ6CRWJA4747MBC32E&psc=1&refRID=PCPJ6CRWJA4747MBC32E I have one on order, and will post review here in the following week. soares 1 Custom room treatments for headphone users. Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 So, you just need one of those units? or two with optical in between? Link to comment
jabbr Posted September 9, 2019 Author Share Posted September 9, 2019 15 minutes ago, Ralf11 said: So, you just need one of those units? or two with optical in between? It is very flexible -- what are you trying to connect? Custom room treatments for headphone users. Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 Nothing for me - just a general question. (I'm still happy with AirPlay - will add HiRes eventually...) Link to comment
Popular Post jabbr Posted September 12, 2019 Author Popular Post Share Posted September 12, 2019 I received the Mikrotik CRS305 yesterday. $130 shipped on Amazon, 4 SFP(+) ports ... yes sports fans, that 4 10Gb Ethernet ports at an unheard of crazy cheap price. Why oh why would an audiophile need 10 Gb Ethernet? ... I mean audio can fit into 100 Mb right? Well it’s the standards folks that essentially require a femtosecond clock and extensive testing on these puppies. That’s why they have been so expensive until now. The IEEE 802.3ae-2002 standard specified 10Gb Ethernet. Clause 52 specified for the first time, a really tight eye pattern that severely limits jitter on the signal. Prior Ethernet standards (100m, 1G) did not limit jitter in this way, so who knows what you get in a cheap 1G switch, but all conformant 10G devices must meet this low jitter standard. Testing: 1) https://www.keysight.com/upload/cmc_upload/All/669-10GigEthernet-08-01-02.pdf 2) http://www.ieee802.org/3/10GMMFSG/public/jan04/lindsay_1_0104.pdf 3) https://download.tek.com/document/85W_16988_0.pdf You see that the 10GBase-X standard requires an entirely different level of jitter control. That’s one reason why 10G devices have been so expensive. Yet femtosecond clocks are a dime a dozen these days, particularly for the big network boys that purchase by the crate of rolls. Let’s take a look at the setup: Unboxing Couldn’t be easier. It’s silent. It’s tiny. It’s low power. You plug a 12V DC supply in the back. Plug in SFP modules and you are good to go. No need to configure out if the box. You can use singlemode or multi mode 1G SFP modules ... you can also use 1G RG-45 modules with copper Ethernet. Here is the device configured as an “FMC” ie fiber media converter. How does it sound? Completely silent. Dark black silent. The only thing you can hear is the music. $130 rickca and Duke40 2 Custom room treatments for headphone users. Link to comment
ericuco Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 Well dang-it, this would have been perfect for my needs - 4 SFP+ slots but I purchased the QNAP QSW-804-4C a few weeks ago. Certainly happy with the QNAP unit but it was lots more $$$. Where did you get the Foundry 1G RG-45 module? I could still use this unit to replace my one TP Links FMC. Eric Audio System Link to comment
jabbr Posted September 12, 2019 Author Share Posted September 12, 2019 I have a few different SFPs plus I have a Mikrotik S-RJ10 on the way — a 10G/1G/100m/10m module, there’s also the S-RJ01 which is a 1G copper SFP. Compatibility: https://wiki.mikrotik.com/wiki/MikroTik_SFP_module_compatibility_table The Foundry is just an ancient module I found laying around. For new, aside from Mikrotik, I’d get Cisco, HP or Finisar — I’ll test these in a bit and post compatibility. But yes, this could be copper Ethernet in and then out to 3 fiber devices in a local audio network eg server, NAS, endpoint. I happened to see a review on servethehome.com of the Mikrotik big brother and then found this little unit. Custom room treatments for headphone users. Link to comment
Superdad Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 6 hours ago, jabbr said: I received the Mikrotik CRS305 yesterday. $130 shipped on Amazon, 4 SFP(+) ports ... yes sports fans, that 4 10Gb Ethernet ports at an unheard of crazy cheap price. Can you pop the top so we see the inside? Frojo 1 UpTone Audio LLC Link to comment
jabbr Posted September 12, 2019 Author Share Posted September 12, 2019 1 hour ago, Superdad said: Can you pop the top so we see the inside? I might void the warrantee 😉 Give me some time and I’ll see. If you happen to be interested in which clock they use remember that the clock might account for 1/3 rd of the total jitter, the rest is all the other circuits. The standard requires end-to-end jitter testing. Custom room treatments for headphone users. Link to comment
Foggie Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 Is the thought with the MikroTik to be used like any other switch but being it supports 10gb standards, it might be a “quieter” and rival some of the audiophile switches (if there is such a thing) or just that it has 4 sfp ports and is inexpensive? Or all the above My rig Link to comment
charlesphoto Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 Can it retrofit standard 850nm SFP's or does it have to have SFP+ transceivers? I wonder how it compares to the Sonore opticaModule? Thinking going from one of these to oM in the main setup and also oM in the office from the same beginning transceiver/switch might be cool. SERVER CLOSET (in office directly below living room stereo):NUC 7i5BNH with Roon ROCK (ZeroZone 12V on the NUC)>Cisco 2690L-16PS switch>Sonore opticalModule (Uptone LPS 1.2)> LIVING ROOM: Sonore opticalRendu Roon version (Sonore Power Supply)> Shunyata Venom USB>Naim DAC V1>Witchhat DIN>Naim NAP 160 Bolt Down>Chord Rumor 2>Audio Physic Compact Classics. OFFICE: opticalModule> Sonore microRendu 1.4> Matrix Mini-i Pro 3> Naim NAP 110>NACA5>KEF Ls50's. BJC 6a and Ghent Catsnake 6a JSSG ethernet; AC cables: Shunyata Venom NR V-10; Audience Forte F3; Ice Age copper/copper; Sean Jacobs CHC PowerBlack, Moon Audio DIN>RCA, USB A>C. Isolation: Herbie's Audio Lab. Link to comment
jabbr Posted September 12, 2019 Author Share Posted September 12, 2019 1 hour ago, Foggie said: Is the thought with the MikroTik to be used like any other switch but being it supports 10gb standards, it might be a “quieter” and rival some of the audiophile switches (if there is such a thing) or just that it has 4 sfp ports and is inexpensive? Or all the above Rival? It’s optical and uses the 10GBase-X standard (802.3ae) so has to meet way higher standard than 1g switches. Fiberoptic out is perfectly quiet. If you read read through the linked testing documents, there is a huge discussion about how incoming jitter is not propagated to the output. Its really inexpensive for what you get. Custom room treatments for headphone users. Link to comment
jabbr Posted September 12, 2019 Author Share Posted September 12, 2019 1 hour ago, charlesphoto said: Can it retrofit standard 850nm SFP's or does it have to have SFP+ transceivers? I wonder how it compares to the Sonore opticaModule? Thinking going from one of these to oM in the main setup and also oM in the office from the same beginning transceiver/switch might be cool. Yes I am using it with 1g 850nm SFPs (the Finisar) as well as 1g single mode. This is is a switch, so it implements things like 802.3z (flow control) and has a routing/vlan mode but I’m not using that. Because it is 10G noise on the input is not propagated to the output — read the long documents I’ve linked above to understand this — see: stressed eye pattern testing. Custom room treatments for headphone users. Link to comment
rickca Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 Well @jabbr you have been making this point about 10 gigabit ethernet for quite some time now and thank you for that. I'd like to see some feedback on sound quality comparing your Microtik CRS305 to the EtherREGEN once it becomes available. I get the impression that you feel the tight standards for 10 gigabit render something like the EtherREGEN redundant. Am I reading too much into your posts? Foggie 1 Pareto Audio AMD 7700 Server --> Berkeley Alpha USB --> Jeff Rowland Aeris --> Jeff Rowland 625 S2 --> Focal Utopia 3 Diablos with 2 x Focal Electra SW 1000 BE subs i7-6700K/Windows 10 --> EVGA Nu Audio Card --> Focal CMS50's Link to comment
Foggie Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 37 minutes ago, jabbr said: Rival? It’s optical and uses the 10GBase-X standard (802.3ae) so has to meet way higher standard than 1g switches. Fiberoptic out is perfectly quiet. If you read read through the linked testing documents, there is a huge discussion about how incoming jitter is not propagated to the output. Its really inexpensive for what you get. Rival was poor choice of words, I thought you may have tried the various switches from the audio vendors etc..I have no ref with those. Anyway I run fiber in my home and to listening room for the past couple years and have been very happy with the results. I guess was wondering if it was basically the price point for this switch that was the standout, being fiber is self explanatory. Thanks for the info and links. Since my fiber switch isn't working well with the OM and mU, I'm considering options. My rig Link to comment
jabbr Posted September 12, 2019 Author Share Posted September 12, 2019 18 minutes ago, rickca said: Well @jabbr you have been making this point about 10 gigabit ethernet for quite some time now and thank you for that. I have long seen fiberoptic ethernet as a great isolation technique. Certainly for electrical noise, and 10G and up for phase noise/jitter. 18 minutes ago, rickca said: I'd like to see some feedback on sound quality comparing your Microtik CRS305 to the EtherREGEN once it becomes available. I get the impression that you feel the tight standards for 10 gigabit render something like the EtherREGEN redundant. Am I reading too much into your posts? There is no reason a device like EtherREGEN or opticalModule can't exceed the 1g Ethernet standards. I haven't seen any measurements to say one way or the other. I can say that this fiberoptic switch, with a fiberoptic endpoint is silent. I am not commenting on the copper Ethernet output to a copper Ethernet endpoint. There are many different devices with different purposes. I see the strength of the EtherREGEN, from what I understand of the design, to be for fiberoptic in and copper out? Custom room treatments for headphone users. Link to comment
jabbr Posted September 12, 2019 Author Share Posted September 12, 2019 3 minutes ago, Foggie said: I guess was wondering if it was basically the price point for this switch that was the standout, being fiber is self explanatory. Thanks for the info and links. Yes, 10g fiber (10GBase-X) at the pricepoint, being compatible with 1g SFPSs and fanless. I have never "listened" to an "audiophile" copper Ethernet switch. In my view a switch should be completely silent/transparent, and this is. My Brocade switch in the basement, and Mellanox switch, are also silent and transparent, but they have fans, so aren't so silent in my basement Custom room treatments for headphone users. Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 if we modeled your switches like RR switches, then your house might look like this: Superdad 1 Link to comment
barrows Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 4 hours ago, jabbr said: This is is a switch, so it implements things like 802.3z (flow control) and has a routing/vlan mode but I’m not using that. Hi, so flow control can be defeated in the settings for this device, just trying to confirm for sure! Thanks, B. SO/ROON/HQPe: DSD 512-Sonore opticalModuleDeluxe-Signature Rendu optical with Well Tempered Clock--DIY DSC-2 DAC with SC Pure Clock--DIY Purifi Amplifier-Focus Audio FS888 speakers-JL E 112 sub-Nordost Tyr USB, DIY EventHorizon AC cables, Iconoclast XLR & speaker cables, Synergistic Purple Fuses, Spacetime system clarifiers. ISOAcoustics Oreas footers. SONORE computer audio | opticalRendu | ultraRendu | microRendu | Signature Rendu SE | Accessories | Software | Link to comment
jabbr Posted September 13, 2019 Author Share Posted September 13, 2019 Yes it’s a managed switch. (that’s what I meant to say) barrows 1 Custom room treatments for headphone users. Link to comment
Miska Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 4 hours ago, barrows said: Hi, so flow control can be defeated in the settings for this device, just trying to confirm for sure! Thanks, B. Why would you want to defeat flow control? Especially in this kind of case where you could have 10 Gbps vs 1 Gbps link transition? Of course if you prefer packet losses instead... Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers Link to comment
bodiebill Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 If going optical (and not going 10 Gbps) is the main point, then I guess an even cheaper option would be: https://www.dectdirect.nl/nl/mikrotik-cloud-router-switch-106-1c-5s.html?id=100502939&gclid=Cj0KCQjw_OzrBRDmARIsAAIdQ_JjfeQS4ern122cA1qZ5WKcPiv3Jodsk5_yLd2nzvSQycRUYixch5oaAkvUEALw_wcB Also nice that this can be powered by anything between 11 and 30 VDC. audio system Link to comment
jabbr Posted September 13, 2019 Author Share Posted September 13, 2019 2 hours ago, bodiebill said: If going optical (and not going 10 Gbps) is the main point, then I guess an even cheaper option would be: https://www.dectdirect.nl/nl/mikrotik-cloud-router-switch-106-1c-5s.html?id=100502939&gclid=Cj0KCQjw_OzrBRDmARIsAAIdQ_JjfeQS4ern122cA1qZ5WKcPiv3Jodsk5_yLd2nzvSQycRUYixch5oaAkvUEALw_wcB Also nice that this can be powered by anything between 11 and 30 VDC. The 10Gbe switch is built to a much much higher standard, and by standard I mean IEEE. Not just the speed but the isolation, jitter etc. For an extra few bucks it’s worth it, that said nothing wrong with 1Gbe. Custom room treatments for headphone users. Link to comment
jabbr Posted September 13, 2019 Author Share Posted September 13, 2019 4 hours ago, Miska said: Why would you want to defeat flow control? Especially in this kind of case where you could have 10 Gbps vs 1 Gbps link transition? Of course if you prefer packet losses instead... Yes exactly the situation that pause-frame is designed for : downlinks from 10Gbe to 1Gbe can easily overwhelm internal buffers. Also the datasheet for the iMX6 specifies pause-frames because the internal speed is capped at 400Mbs ... are the pause-frames generated by the hardware ie PHY and the device driver controls? Or does the driver generate the frames? Custom room treatments for headphone users. Link to comment
jabbr Posted September 13, 2019 Author Share Posted September 13, 2019 Actually I suspect that I have an answer .... not for the iMX6 specifically but looks like the Ethernet stuff including 802.3x is typically implemented in hardware ie VHDL or Verilog. In fact the Marvel Prestera ASIC one of which I believe powers the Mikrotik includes an ARM core so in this case the “driver” switches the flow-control on/off. No doubt Freescale/NXP does the same? Custom room treatments for headphone users. Link to comment
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