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Optical Network Configurations

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1 hour ago, Arpiben said:

 

Sorry but I am not fully understanding. As far as I know:

  • MMF SFP transceivers are using VCSEL lasers
  • SMF SFP transceivers are using DFB or Fabry-Perot lasers.

 

I don’t fully understand either. My initial statement came from what seems to be some really really old information back in the days when LEDs were used for multimode. There also are a bunch of different types of single mode and even a bunch of types of newer lasers. 

 

That said, I looked up some Finisar literature and they use VCSEL for MMF and mostly DFB for SMF with SFP+ modules. 

 

Its hard for me to predict which would result in less EMI because SMF itself needs less power because more efficient coupling of laser to fiber yet VCSEL needs less initial excitation. 

 

1 hour ago, Arpiben said:

Therefore I am expecting Multimode SFP electronics to cause less EMI from the destination.

 

That could be the case. I am not sure.

 


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The TP Link MC110CS bridge I use in the office  the FMC's don't use removable transceivers at all. I wonder if that's a reason they were anecdotally considered better sounding then their 1gb cousins.I also set up the rocker switches on it per the suggestions of a member on here and they did sound slightly better. 

 

The SFP transceiver sound difference sounds like a serious rabbit hole to go down.  Three quarters of them probably come from the same factory as it is! 


SERVER CLOSET:NUC 7i5BNH with Roon ROCK and OWC external 2.5" HD (ZeroZone 12V on the NUC)>Cisco 2690L-16PS switch>Sonore opticalModule>fiber (HDPLEX 100). Supra MD-06 power strip. {Office Circuit}

LIVING ROOM:Sonore opticalModule (LPS-1.2) {TV circuit} >Ghent Audio JSSG Cat 6a cable>Sonore microRendu 1.4> (Sonore UltraRendu>Ghent Neotech 7N solid JSSG DC cable) {20amp dedicated circuit) Uptone USPCB>Naim DAC V1>Witchhat DIN>Naim NAP 110 {both dedicated 20amp circuit}>Chord Rumor 2>Rega RX3’s.

OFFICE:TP Link MC110 optical bridge (iFi's - different office circuits)>Naim Unitiqute V1>NACA5>KEF Ls50’ (near field post mounted - sound amazing - one of the few  joys of working from the home basement). Cables: AQ Cinnamon RJ45, Meico RJ45, basic cat6, Naim stock AC cables with Wattgate or HifiKing Plugs. 

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37 minutes ago, charlesphoto said:

The TP Link MC110CS bridge I use in the office  the FMC's don't use removable transceivers at all. I wonder if that's a reason they were anecdotally considered better sounding then their 1gb cousins.

 

There are many ways to configure networks, and as long as your network is working and you are happy with the sound, all it good. End of story.

 

The 100m FMC probably uses LEDs which allow them to be really cheap. LEDs can’t switch as fast as lasers and so aren’t used in the much newer high speed interfaces. I can’t imagine there is a high quality clock in those either but all of this might not matter at all! 

 

Quote

 

The SFP transceiver sound difference sounds like a serious rabbit hole to go down.  Three quarters of them probably come from the same factory as it is! 

 

No one should worry about this unless they want to tinker! It’s easy to swap out SFP modules — by design — so its a bit like tube rolling. 😉

 

Ethernet interfaces are a very technologically advanced and competitive market. Finisar & Avago are outstanding OEMs. I consider them brand name. I don’t know where fs.com sources their generic SFPs from but they have outstanding prices. 

 

Even fs.com doesn’t have bargain basement prices on 10Gbe fiber switches and that reflects the cost of higher quality design & parts. 

 

Regarding FMCs, I’d expect that the Sonore FMC to be of significantly higher quality which is reflected in its (reasonable) price. If you are questioning the SQ of different FMCs, compare your $25 TP Link to Sonore’s for example.

 

On the other hand if you are interested in physics consider what it takes to send a terabit signal kilometers down a fiberoptic cable — I find it fascinating.


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2 hours ago, jabbr said:

 

I don’t fully understand either. My initial statement came from what seems to be some really really old information back in the days when LEDs were used for multimode. There also are a bunch of different types of single mode and even a bunch of types of newer lasers. 

 

That said, I looked up some Finisar literature and they use VCSEL for MMF and mostly DFB for SMF with SFP+ modules. 

 

Its hard for me to predict which would result in less EMI because SMF itself needs less power because more efficient coupling of laser to fiber yet VCSEL needs less initial excitation. 

 

 

That could be the case. I am not sure.

 

 

Thanks.

Since I am using both Finisar 10 Gbps SMF & MMF SFPs I had a look at their electrical specs to find out that they are almost identical.

At the end no idea if one type is more or less noisy. 😉

In principle in Telecom applications we don't care so much about it but let me ask some colleagues from optoelectronics or submarine optical networks if they have more clues than us.

 

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1 minute ago, Arpiben said:

 

Thanks.

Since I am using both Finisar 10 Gbps SMF & MMF SFPs I had a look at their electrical specs to find out that they are almost identical.

At the end no idea if one type is more or less noisy. 😉

In principle in Telecom applications we don't care so much about it but let me ask some colleagues from optoelectronics or submarine optical networks if they have more clues than us.

 

Oh god yeah ... I've been rereading everything to get a handle on where my information/misinformation comes from ...

 

So ... turns out they seem to use VCSEL lasers in DFB, (the DFB uses feedback to tune the laser) that is to say that the nitty gritty details get murky ... for example I found this  DFB (and click on specifications and see that it lists VCSEL): https://www.finisar.com/communication-components/dfb-1310-10lr-lca

 

So I can't make any blanket statements, but I also prefer Finisar modules ;) 


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The opticalModules are a product unto themselves imo. Just not ready to go for a second pair yet for the office, so the TP Links good enough for now. I am using Bridge on the microRendu to send Roon to my older Naim Unitiqute, so any goodness I add to the main set up I can hear the results in the office as well. But taking the office TP bridge out altogether the sound did get harder and harsher. Didn't try the oM's there - didn't want to know.

 

I'm done monkeying with the network - too many restarts and hair pulls. I do look at the chain and sometimes think this is untenable. If only one part goes... probably best to just go for the whole hog in one, the Signature optical, but it's also been great to upgrade over time and for not nearly as much $. 


SERVER CLOSET:NUC 7i5BNH with Roon ROCK and OWC external 2.5" HD (ZeroZone 12V on the NUC)>Cisco 2690L-16PS switch>Sonore opticalModule>fiber (HDPLEX 100). Supra MD-06 power strip. {Office Circuit}

LIVING ROOM:Sonore opticalModule (LPS-1.2) {TV circuit} >Ghent Audio JSSG Cat 6a cable>Sonore microRendu 1.4> (Sonore UltraRendu>Ghent Neotech 7N solid JSSG DC cable) {20amp dedicated circuit) Uptone USPCB>Naim DAC V1>Witchhat DIN>Naim NAP 110 {both dedicated 20amp circuit}>Chord Rumor 2>Rega RX3’s.

OFFICE:TP Link MC110 optical bridge (iFi's - different office circuits)>Naim Unitiqute V1>NACA5>KEF Ls50’ (near field post mounted - sound amazing - one of the few  joys of working from the home basement). Cables: AQ Cinnamon RJ45, Meico RJ45, basic cat6, Naim stock AC cables with Wattgate or HifiKing Plugs. 

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9 minutes ago, charlesphoto said:

The opticalModules are a product unto themselves imo. Just not ready to go for a second pair yet for the office, so the TP Links good enough for now. I am using Bridge on the microRendu to send Roon to my older Naim Unitiqute, so any goodness I add to the main set up I can hear the results in the office as well. But taking the office TP bridge out altogether the sound did get harder and harsher. Didn't try the oM's there - didn't want to know.

 

I'm done monkeying with the network - too many restarts and hair pulls. I do look at the chain and sometimes think this is untenable. If only one part goes... probably best to just go for the whole hog in one, the Signature optical, but it's also been great to upgrade over time and for not nearly as much $. 

I have a pretty simple network. Router, switch, and wired home runs to various drops. One drop to a wifi access point in the center of the house. The audio room has a dedicated opticalModule for my Rendu.

 

I also have one massive upgrade (being sarcastic) and it’s a battery back unit for my router, switch, access point, and NAS. 

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5 minutes ago, charlesphoto said:

I'm done monkeying with the network - too many restarts and hair pulls. I do look at the chain and sometimes think this is untenable. If only one part goes... probably best to just go for the whole hog in one, the Signature optical, but it's also been great to upgrade over time and for not nearly as much $. 

Yep.

 

The reason I started with SFP based FMCs was because the SFPs use LC-LC connectors and the all-in-ones use SC connectors. When I wired my house I purchased pre-terminated LC-LC cables and ran them from the upstairs across the attic and then down  into the basement where my servers and networking equipment is located. I used the same paths that the cable guys use to thread cable to various rooms. Our fiber to the home connection also comes into the basement.

 

All the media whether it be audio, still photos or video is stored on the same NAS. If you use large RAW files with many photoshop layers, or video at all, and particularly video editing, 10Gbe is noticeably faster (of course you can always cache locally, just so). 10Gbe speed has no advantage for audio. Same cables.

 

The advantage of SFP is that its standard across all the networking devices and I wanted to avoid folks buying incompatible cables, or worse running SC terminated cables through their walls. Once you set it up, it just works. In the meantime I also have wireless through the house and its never as flawless or stable. Wireless still has occasional dropouts & stuttering.


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Well, use what works, I say, especially if it's already in place or you have it. I already had LC-LC running through the wall/floor from the server closet to the living room system, so the inclusion of two oM's was easy. The TP Link's cost me all of $40 for the pair so they stay. 

 

I think there's far too much churning of materials these days to try and reach that nth bit of sound or image quality. Use what you have, what you can afford, and what will benefit the sound the most overall. 


SERVER CLOSET:NUC 7i5BNH with Roon ROCK and OWC external 2.5" HD (ZeroZone 12V on the NUC)>Cisco 2690L-16PS switch>Sonore opticalModule>fiber (HDPLEX 100). Supra MD-06 power strip. {Office Circuit}

LIVING ROOM:Sonore opticalModule (LPS-1.2) {TV circuit} >Ghent Audio JSSG Cat 6a cable>Sonore microRendu 1.4> (Sonore UltraRendu>Ghent Neotech 7N solid JSSG DC cable) {20amp dedicated circuit) Uptone USPCB>Naim DAC V1>Witchhat DIN>Naim NAP 110 {both dedicated 20amp circuit}>Chord Rumor 2>Rega RX3’s.

OFFICE:TP Link MC110 optical bridge (iFi's - different office circuits)>Naim Unitiqute V1>NACA5>KEF Ls50’ (near field post mounted - sound amazing - one of the few  joys of working from the home basement). Cables: AQ Cinnamon RJ45, Meico RJ45, basic cat6, Naim stock AC cables with Wattgate or HifiKing Plugs. 

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4 hours ago, jabbr said:

So I can't make any blanket statements, but I also prefer Finisar modules

Hello

@jabbr what are the reasons for your preference of finisar modules? Sound wise? Or other technical reason?

 

Also since you have both SM and MM modules did you compared them soundwise?

 

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1 hour ago, Ricardo007 said:

Hello

@jabbr what are the reasons for your preference of finisar modules? Sound wise? Or other technical reason?

 

Finisar and Avago were certified by and OEMd by Intel. I started using them with my Intel NICs. I like the dual 1g/10Gbe modules (all my NICs are at least 10Gbe).

 

Some switches/NICs specify certain SFP(+) modules and I use what the manufacturer recommends. So Brocade and Mellanox also. Finisar is an OEM for Cisco, Brocade, IBM, Ciena etc, so smarter people than me like them 😉

 

 

Quote

 

Also since you have both SM and MM modules did you compared them soundwise?

 

 

I haven’t done blind nor rigorous SQ testing. I’ll let y’all weigh in 😉


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To add to the post of @matthias,Taiko Audio prefer Startech SFP modules over Finisar and FS store for audio and 1GB SFP over 10GB SFP, see post #920 on: https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/taiko-audio-sgm-extreme-the-crème-de-la-crème.27433/page-46

 

For implementing 10GB SFP in a home network for hifi purposes, the QNAP QSW-308S switch

https://www.qnap.com/en/product/qsw-308s) mentioned later on in the thread might be an interesting product that seems relatively affordable. 

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On 7/20/2019 at 5:35 PM, vortecjr said:

I also have one massive upgrade (being sarcastic) and it’s a battery back unit for my router, switch, access point, and NAS. 

 

Does the PSU for the NAS really matter when the NAS is the most upstream device and optically isolated from the downstream devices?


 

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1 hour ago, bodiebill said:

 

Does the PSU for the NAS really matter when the NAS is the most upstream device and optically isolated from the downstream devices?

 

He said he was being sarcastic. I don’t think it matters one iota as long as your NAS is working. 


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15 hours ago, McNulty said:

For implementing 10GB SFP in a home network for hifi purposes, the QNAP QSW-308S switch

https://www.qnap.com/en/product/qsw-308s) mentioned later on in the thread might be an interesting product that seems relatively affordable. 

 

I was looking at that switch until I came across a note on QNAP website for the switch that states:

 

"Note: The 10GbE SFP+ ports are not backward compatible with 1GbE SFP."

 

I am no expert in this area but the only 10GbE equipment I have in my system is my Intel fiber optic NIC. I believe all of the Sonore products are not 10GbE but please correct me if I am wrong on this.

 

As such, I am now looking at the QNAP QSW-804-4C switch which appears to be backward compatible. Any advice from the experts would be welcome.


Eric

 

Custom Linux server (Ubuntu Studio - Roon - HQ Player) > Sonore microRendu (HQP NAA) >

Buffalo-IIIsePro-28 > Hypex NC400 > Klipsch Forte III

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14 minutes ago, ericuco said:

 

I was looking at that switch until I came across a note on QNAP website for the switch that states:

 

"Note: The 10GbE SFP+ ports are not backward compatible with 1GbE SFP."

 

I am no expert in this area but the only 10GbE equipment I have in my system is my Intel fiber optic NIC. I believe all of the Sonore products are not 10GbE but please correct me if I am wrong on this.

 

As such, I am now looking at the QNAP QSW-804-4C switch which appears to be backward compatible. Any advice from the experts would be welcome.

 

Good pickup. 10Gbe SFP(+) is not required to support 1Gbe SFPs but many do. Only use the ones that are dual compatible 10g/1g.

 

Looks like the one you found is a nice fanless option!


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I got the QNAP QSW-1208-8C.

 

Both 10Gb SPF+ and 1Gb SPF are working harmoniously on all the 12 ports.

 

The same for Ubiquiti UniFi Switch 16 XG.   Both 10Gb SPF + and 1Gb SPF worked.  Noisy fan noise but was fixed by replacing stock fans with Noctua.  Need to re-drill mounting holes and cut metal off the casing to fix the fans in. 

 

(Audio) 

 

 

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9 hours ago, jabbr said:

He said he was being sarcastic. I don’t think it matters one iota as long as your NAS is working. 

 

Thanks, I thought so much, just checking 🙂


 

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2 hours ago, Audio said:

I got the QNAP QSW-1208-8C.

 

Both 10Gb SPF+ and 1Gb SPF are working harmoniously on all the 12 ports.

 

That's good to know.

 

I have another customer who could not get the QNAP TS332X to work with 1G SFP modules, even after trying two brands of SFP switches and two types of SFP modules.


Peter Lie

LUMIN Firmware Lead

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4 hours ago, Audio said:

I got the QNAP QSW-1208-8C.

 

Both 10Gb SPF+ and 1Gb SPF are working harmoniously on all the 12 ports.

 

The same for Ubiquiti UniFi Switch 16 XG.   Both 10Gb SPF + and 1Gb SPF worked.  Noisy fan noise but was fixed by replacing stock fans with Noctua.  Need to re-drill mounting holes and cut metal off the casing to fix the fans in. 

 

(Audio) 

 

Which one had the problematic fan, the QNAP or the Ubiquiti?

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7 hours ago, ericuco said:

Received my new QNAP QSW-804-4C switch today that is replacing an inexpensive Chinese brand switch.

 

One note on the switch which wasn't clear in the documentation is that the first four port SFP+ ports are 10Gb only. I had plugged my 1Gb modules in and they didn't work on these ports. So, I moved them to the combo-ports and they worked. In other words the four combo-ports are 10/100/1000 & 10 GB ports.

 

Thanks for the report, I think it partially explained my customer's trouble with a 1G SFP module in his QNAP NAS with SFP+ port.

 

However, there is a discrepancy with something else.  These are photos from a Taiwan review of Lumin X1 together with the QSW-804-4C switch:

showimage.asp?imgid=30148646

 

showimage.asp?imgid=30148647

 

If I'm not mistaken, it had a 1G SFP module in the non-combo SFP+ slot.  So I'm confused with QNAP's implementation.


Peter Lie

LUMIN Firmware Lead

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19 hours ago, ericuco said:

Received my new QNAP QSW-804-4C switch today that is replacing an inexpensive Chinese brand switch.

 

 

One note on the switch which wasn't clear in the documentation is that the first four port SFP+ ports are 10Gb only. I had plugged my 1Gb modules in and they didn't work on these ports. So, I moved them to the combo-ports and they worked. In other words the four combo-ports are 10/100/1000 & 10 GB ports. Probably not an issue for most people but still wanted to people aware of it.

 

 

I have been using this switch for several months and really like it.  For a time I had a 1 Gbe SFP in one of first 4 ports.  Got an output to drive a Ethernet device but the LED status indicators on the port never worked.

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28 minutes ago, JohnDonaldson said:

I have been using this switch for several months and really like it.  For a time I had a 1 Gbe SFP in one of first 4 ports.  Got an output to drive a Ethernet device but the LED status indicators on the port never worked.

Interesting. I never actually tried to use those ports with 1Gb SFP's. Just saw that indicator lights did not come on and assumed it didn't accept the 1Gb SFP's.

 

IMHO, this switch is a good option for this community where you don't need lots of ports. Most of the industrial-grade switches (used on ebay) I had considered had 12, 24, 48 ports which are overkill for my intended purposes. Also, the combo-ports make it very flexible and somewhat future proof.

 

Compared to the inexpensive Chinese-brand switch I was using, this switch is a tank. Some of it can be contributed to the internal PS (vs external PS).


Eric

 

Custom Linux server (Ubuntu Studio - Roon - HQ Player) > Sonore microRendu (HQP NAA) >

Buffalo-IIIsePro-28 > Hypex NC400 > Klipsch Forte III

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On 8/1/2019 at 10:28 PM, wklie said:

 

Thanks for the report, I think it partially explained my customer's trouble with a 1G SFP module in his QNAP NAS with SFP+ port.

 

However, there is a discrepancy with something else.  These are photos from a Taiwan review of Lumin X1 together with the QSW-804-4C switch:

showimage.asp?imgid=30148646

 

showimage.asp?imgid=30148647

 

If I'm not mistaken, it had a 1G SFP module in the non-combo SFP+ slot.  So I'm confused with QNAP's implementation.

 

Who knows. Typically blue is used for multimode cable but they have a 1310nm 10km SFP — ie single mode

The blue tab on the right looks like a direct attach cable — I’d suspect this is a mock up for photo purposes rather than a working config ;) 

 

Hint: on SFP modules, a blue band (horizontal) on the SFP release also typically means a single mode module. 


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