Optical Network Configurations

[CJH]

With renewed interest in fiber (Sonore Optical) I thought I might try  some optical isolation myself (as long as it didn't get expensive or overly complex). Connections are between a computer, Netgear router and microRendu 1.3. I have tried it in the past (a couple of TPLink MC110cs) with very minor improvements. I got bigger improvements using a Netgear FS105 10/100 copper switch (seems my Rendu will not connect to 1000 mbs connection). This worked best with each network item connected to it. Plugging the computer into the router then running a single connection to the FS105 was worse. So I new I wanted to isolate the computer from the router if possible. I needed a network switch with copper connections and at least two fiber connections (one for the router and one for the computer to maintain isolation). A search on Amazon provided options. Purchased a couple TP link MC220L, a couple 1000 Mbps SFP modules (one for the router and one for the computer) along with an Aptek Gigabit switch with two optical modules and four 10/100/1000 copper connections and a couple more SFP modules along with two 1m fiber cables. Total cost was around $175--not too bad. Hooked it all together--took a while for the computer to get connected to the internet through all this new gear--but finally connected.

How did it sound--it didn't. MicroRendu would not connect as I forgot to use the Netgear FS105 to slow the connection down to 100Mbps for the Rendu. With that in place all is well and sounding better than ever. Seems the fiber connection does lower the overall noise, adds a sense of solidity to instruments/voices, increases separation, increases perception of recording venue, increases the tonal individuality of instruments (listen to Coplands third or vocal pieces by Eric Whitacre or even the classic Doors-Riders on the Storm).

My only cheat in this foray was the power supplies. I am a big believer in low noise power supplies, so all the network connection gear was powered by either battery or self made supplies using Paul Hynes or MPAudio regulation modules. What fun.

Chris H.

[the_doc735]

2 hours ago, CJH said:

With renewed interest in fiber (Sonore Optical) I thought I might try  some optical isolation myself (as long as it didn't get expensive or overly complex). Connections are between a computer, Netgear router and microRendu 1.3. I have tried it in the past (a couple of TPLink MC110cs) with very minor improvements. I got bigger improvements using a Netgear FS105 10/100 copper switch (seems my Rendu will not connect to 1000 mbs connection). This worked best with each network item connected to it. Plugging the computer into the router then running a single connection to the FS105 was worse. So I new I wanted to isolate the computer from the router if possible. I needed a network switch with copper connections and at least two fiber connections (one for the router and one for the computer to maintain isolation). A search on Amazon provided options. Purchased a couple TP link MC220L, a couple 1000 Mbps SFP modules (one for the router and one for the computer) along with an Aptek Gigabit switch with two optical modules and four 10/100/1000 copper connections and a couple more SFP modules along with two 1m fiber cables. Total cost was around $175--not too bad. Hooked it all together--took a while for the computer to get connected to the internet through all this new gear--but finally connected.

How did it sound--it didn't. MicroRendu would not connect as I forgot to use the Netgear FS105 to slow the connection down to 100Mbps for the Rendu. With that in place all is well and sounding better than ever. Seems the fiber connection does lower the overall noise, adds a sense of solidity to instruments/voices, increases separation, increases perception of recording venue, increases the tonal individuality of instruments (listen to Coplands third or vocal pieces by Eric Whitacre or even the classic Doors-Riders on the Storm).

My only cheat in this foray was the power supplies. I am a big believer in low noise power supplies, so all the network connection gear was powered by either battery or self made supplies using Paul Hynes or MPAudio regulation modules. What fun.

Chris H.

could you provide a diagram of this network connection please?

[CJH]

the_doc735:

Sorry, I'm old and have no idea how to make diagrams in these forums.

Chris H.

[d_elm]

52 minutes ago, CJH said:

the_doc735:

Sorry, I'm old and have no idea how to make diagrams in these forums.

Chris H.

I use Microsoft Visio and think others do also.

[mav52]

On 8/30/2018 at 3:33 AM, wklie said:

A few days ago we had a Lumin X1 event at Volent Speaker Hong Kong office. The host played the same music after switching among copper LAN, multi-mode SFP, single-mode 1310nm SFP, and single-mode 1550nm SFP available from fs.com, and also cheap fiber vs Corning glass fiber.  The host and the guests agreed that different SFP modules sounded different.

 

There was no universal consensus on which sounds best, but I believe there are more people who preferred the 1310nm SFP to others.  People also preferred Corning glass fiber (but not easy to purchase in a usable terminated form).

 

Details of the setup:
- Lumin X1
- Volent x Clones Cisco SG112-24 OCXO modified network switch
- Plixir LPS for the network switch
- Bespoke passive preamplifier
- WestminsterLab mono amp
- WestminsterLab cables
- Volent Paragon VL-3.5 speakers

 

I was hoping the new T2 was going to have the optical connection like the X1. ,any plans to bring optical in the other models.

[wklie]

On 2/10/2019 at 12:14 AM, mav52 said:

I was hoping the new T2 was going to have the optical connection like the X1. ,any plans to bring optical in the other models.

 

Have not heard of any plan for that.  Even if I have, I'd not be able to disclose it.

[One and a half]

I wouldn’t mind to try optical to insert into the copper Ethernet line to the U1. The hesitation is trading what leaks through the copper versus the leaks added by the FMC, both of them. 

 

The cable to the U1 is about 35m from the Server which has a JCAT NET card. The sound is really, really engaging, so adding more bits should make it worse?

 

Different matter if there’s a direct connection to the Lumin via fiber though. There’s no media to convert as this is accomplished in the SFP without the additional step.

[mav52]

5 hours ago, wklie said:

 

Have not heard of any plan for that.  Even if I have, I'd not be able to disclose it.

Thanks Peter, but is there a way to get optical to the T2 using other means ?

[wklie]

@mav52You may try this:

 

Or the more expensive fiber optic based isolation product just above the linked post.

[wklie]

On 8/30/2018 at 3:33 PM, wklie said:

A few days ago we had a Lumin X1 event at Volent Speaker Hong Kong office. ...

There was no universal consensus on which sounds best, but I believe there are more people who preferred the 1310nm SFP to others.

 

A Japanese audio magazine also compared single mode and multi mode, and they preferred single mode and chose it for their review (in conjunction with SOtM sNH-10G):

https://online.stereosound.co.jp/_ct/17250487

[tboooe]

2 hours ago, wklie said:

 

A Japanese audio magazine also compared single mode and multi mode, and they preferred single mode and chose it for their review (in conjunction with SOtM sNH-10G):

https://online.stereosound.co.jp/_ct/17250487

Ok this little discussion has got me intrigued.  Right now I am using multimode SFP in my intel X520-DA2 fiber nic and Cisco 

ws-c2960g-8tc-l switch.  It will be a cheap and easy test to buy some used 1310 SFP modules and fiber.  Looks like on ebay I can get used genuine Cisco GLC-LH-SM SFP for less than $20 and the single mode fiber from fs.com for $3.  

[wklie]

10 hours ago, tboooe said:

It will be a cheap and easy test to buy some used 1310 SFP modules and fiber.  Looks like on ebay I can get used genuine Cisco GLC-LH-SM SFP for less than $20

 

I look forward to your test results.  How do we know it is genuine Cisco, other than a label?

[jabbr]

http://www.ascdi.com/anti-counterfeit/cisco-counterfeit-indicators/

 

https://packetpushers.net/overpriced-optics-by-oems/

 

 

[tboooe]

Guys, do you know what this "Ultra low loss" fiber optic cable from fs.com is all about?  Why is it better than standard OS2 single mode duplex cable?  Seems like the main benefit is less insertion loss?  That feature probably wont really matter for music purposes but perhaps it has an impact on sound quality?

 

https://www.fs.com/products/68294.html

[Superdad]

14 hours ago, jabbr said:

https://packetpushers.net/overpriced-optics-by-oems/

 

$1,000 SFP modules? Yikes!

So then what is your opinion of the Foxconn or Finisar modules that can be had from DigiKey for $22-32?

[jabbr]

17 minutes ago, Superdad said:

 

$1,000 SFP modules? Yikes!

So then what is your opinion of the Foxconn or Finisar modules that can be had from DigiKey for $22-32?

 

I don't spend that for SFPs. I don't have any Foxconn and know nothing about their quality.

 

Finisar (and Avago) are OEMs that actually make the SFPs for Cisco and others (Intel uses both Finisar and Avago).

 

For example the Finisar FTLX1471D3BCL is named FTLX1471D3BCL-CS (or something like that for the Cisco version which has the Cisco code burned in).

 

e.g.: https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/support/articles/000005528/network-and-i-o/ethernet-products.html

[Superdad]

7 minutes ago, jabbr said:

For example the Finisar FTLX1471D3BCL...

 

Okay, so $109 for that 10Gbps module at DigiKey.  Though they do also sell Finisar modules for $35–probably just 1Gbps.

[jabbr]

33 minutes ago, Superdad said:

 

Okay, so $109 for that 10Gbps module at DigiKey.  Though they do also sell Finisar modules for $35–probably just 1Gbps.

 

Yeah so the FTLX1471D3BCV is the dual 10G/1G version, and the suffix "-IT" means Intel chipped and that's actually what I use. There's also a single mode 1000Base-LX SFP module which is probably a bit less but remember that the single mode optics (VSEL) are more expensive than multi mode.

 

I think this is the 1G part: https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/610/finisar_ftlf1318p3btl_industrial_temp_1.25g_rohs_c-934368.pdf

 

I use the dual 10G/1G for my own flexibility, and because although I haven't actually tested it, and the 1G SFP modules work perfectly fine, the 10G parts are designed to work with significantly higher standards. There was a huge jump in testing requirements when the 10G specs (10GBase-X) came out, including stringent end to end jitter etc. Not that 10G single mode is needed in the home environment but its just a few $ more and crazy good 

 

Now if you are going to pay >$1000 this is the puppy you want: https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Finisar/FTLC1154RDPL?qs=gt1LBUVyoHlQo6N0RZ1q1Q%3d%3d

100G over a single mode fiber! Imagine the eye diagram that needs to hit  

 

Oh and < 3.5 W

 

 

[jabbr]

2 hours ago, tboooe said:

 

 

https://www.fs.com/products/68294.html

 

Seems to be Corning Clear Curve. The main benefit for the home user is that it can be bent to a much greater degree without breaking. 

[bobfa]

I am using 1Gbit single fiber Single Mode bi-directional SFP modules from FS.com. They are $9 and $12 depending upon which frequency they transmit on.  I am using their FMC devices that are unmanaged and auto switch on the Ethernet side.  Zero issues.  I have a thread on this work.

 

 

I will be testing this setup with a PCIe fiber interface card and the EtherRegen as things head my way.   Then I will test the server with a fiber connection to the rest of the LAN.  Step by step. Still working on the server right now.

 

 

 

[R1200CL]

@Superdad

https://www.fs.com/products/29892.html

(From @bobfa list in his thread)

 

Will this be OK (technically) to use with items John has designed ?

 

Why would I purchase 6 times more expensive SFP modules or use multimode ?

[wklie]

On the subject of SFP modules, at Lumin we tested several (not exhaustive) combinations of single mode / multi mode / wavelength / km / vendor compatibility (Cisco, Intel, Dell) of SFP modules from fs.com, a few single mode / multi mode modules from 10Gtek available from Amazon and our local physical stores, and a few TP-Link single mode / multi mode modules against four brands of SFP switches, and TP-Link single mode / multi mode FMC.  Since we do not support 10G, we focus on gigabit modules only.  We even tested some copper Ethernet RJ45 SFP modules.

 

On the whole we did not experience any unexpected incompatibility.

[wklie]

On 8/30/2018 at 3:33 PM, wklie said:

A few days ago we had a Lumin X1 event at Volent Speaker Hong Kong office. The host played the same music after switching among copper LAN, multi-mode SFP, single-mode 1310nm SFP, and single-mode 1550nm SFP available from fs.com, and also cheap fiber vs Corning glass fiber.  The host and the guests agreed that different SFP modules sounded different.

 

For those interested in another subjective review of SQ from fiber vs copper Ethernet from Lumin X1, I've translated parts of a review from Taiwan:

 

[wklie]

On 2/17/2019 at 3:59 AM, jabbr said:

Seems to be Corning Clear Curve.

 

@tboooe That's what I thought too, but when I asked fs.com, I got a reply saying it's Corning SMF-28 Ultra.  I looked at the Corning portfolio which has more than a dozen different fiber products:

• ClearCurve LBL: Full-spectrum, bend-improved single-mode fiber with low bend loss
• SMF-28 Ultra: Full-spectrum single-mode fiber with bend improvement and low-loss technology

[wklie]

On 2/17/2019 at 3:52 PM, R1200CL said:

https://www.fs.com/products/29892.html

 

 

Lumin did not test any simplex BiDi SFP at all.  Everything we tested are duplex.  I also do not see a simplex non-SFP FMC offering from TP-Link, making it hard to advise customers how to migrate from a copper Ethernet to fiber network using a non-SFP FMC with a well-known brand that is compatibility proven and in use by other audiophiles.

 

By the way I ordered the fs.com fiber discussed above.  It looks like it is always custom made and requires a much longer lead time than other hardware like SFP modules.