What DACs support DSD input NOT via USB?

[TarnishedEars]

Are you sure it does DoP? I thought the Vanity HD board converted everything to LPCM?

If you don't order the DoP version of the Vanity Card, then you would be correct. But if you do order the DoP version, then it will genuinely output DSD. However you still have to flip one DIP switch on the board first to enable the DoP mode. Otherwise it will output LPCM as you describe.

 

I'm 100% certain that this is true because my DAC will display PCM when I don't flip this switch on the board. But it definitely says DSD when I do!

 

Seriously I thought that I'd never be able to do this. But with this combination I have a true two-box universal player which does not convert the signal to PCM and which sounds phenominal!

[Audio_ELF]

Thanks... AudioPraise really should mention that option on their website...

If you don't order the DoP version of the Vanity Card, then you would be correct. But if you do order the DoP version, then it will genuinely output DSD. However you still have to flip one DIP switch on the board first to enable the DoP mode. Otherwise it will output LPCM as you describe.

 

I'm 100% certain that this is true because my DAC will display PCM when I don't flip this switch on the board. But it definitely says DSD when I do!

 

Seriously I thought that I'd never be able to do this. But with this combination I have a true two-box universal player which does not convert the signal to PCM and which sounds phenominal!

[TarnishedEars]

Thanks... AudioPraise really should mention that option on their website...

It's on there somewhere. But they don't make it easy to find. Here's a vendors link to this product.

 

JVB Digital, Vanity103 HD DoP SPDIF version

[Bill Lord]

Is there a digital to digital converter that takes bitsreamed DSD from HDMI and outputs to SDIF-3? I'm thinking that having a master clock, DSD-right and DSD-left outputs via three BNC Cables could solve some HDMI jitter/clocking issues?

 

A HDMI to SDIF-3 digital to digital converter.

 

DACs like the Mytek mastering version could really use this.

[TarnishedEars]

Is there a digital to digital converter that takes bitsreamed DSD from HDMI and outputs to SDIF-3? I'm thinking that having a master clock, DSD-right and DSD-left outputs via three BNC Cables could solve some HDMI jitter/clocking issues?

 

A HDMI to SDIF-3 digital to digital converter.

 

DACs like the Mytek mastering version could really use this.

There is a reason why no audio-only DACs have HDMI inputs: Because HDMI licenses are incredibly expensive to procure. Small audio manufacturers simply can't afford to license HDMI. So if anyone were to put an HDMI port on an audio-only DAC, they would need to be a mainstream manufacturer, because only big companies which sell tens of thousands of units can afford the HDMI licensing fees. But if somebody were to make a convertor like you suggest, it would still not be able to decode the encrypted DSD streams because SACD licensing restrictions do not permit for any device with an SACD license to transmit an unencrypted DSD stream.

 

This is the interesting licensing loophole which Audio Praise appears to have exploited here: The Oppo contains all the SACD licensing and decoding technology, and Oppo is doing nothing what-so-ever to violate their license with Sony. However The Vanity HD board does not have any similar SACD licensing, nor does it need it, because the Oppo has already internally decrypted the DSD stream before it sends it on to its internal DAC. What Audio Praise has done here is simply to intercept the already fully decoded digital streams before they are passed-on to the internal DAC. But since Audio Praise does not have any SACD Licenses, they have never agreed to the terms and the restrictions of such a license, and so they are not violating the contractual terms of having one. And neither is Oppo violating theirs. It's a very interesting solution to this whole issue.

[Bill Lord]

There is a reason why no audio-only DACs have HDMI inputs: Because HDMI licenses are incredibly expensive to procure. Small audio manufacturers simply can't afford to license HDMI. So if anyone were to put an HDMI port on an audio-only DAC, they would need to be a mainstream manufacturer, because only big companies which sell tens of thousands of units can afford the HDMIt licensing fees. But if somebody were to make such a convertor, it would still not be able to decode the encrypted DSD streams because SACD licensing restrictions do not permit for any device with an SACD license to do this.

 

This is the interesting licensing loophole which Audio Praise appears to have exploited here: The Oppo contains all the SACD licensing and decoding technology, and Oppo is doing nothing what-so-ever to violate their license with Sony. However The Vanity HD board does not have any similar SACD licensing, nor does it need it, because the Oppo has already internally decrypted the DSD stream before it sends it on to its internal DAC. What Audio Praise has done here is simply to intercept the already fully decoded digital streams before they are passed-on to the internal DAC. But since Audio Praise does not have any SACD Licenses, they have never agreed to the terms and the restrictions of such a license, and so they are not violating the contractual terms of having one. And neither is Oppo violating theirs. It's a very interesting solution to this whole issue.

 

Interesting comments. I am aware of licensing. There are plenty of Audio DACs with HDMI inputs-even Hometheater AVRs do this (see Ted B's list). There is HDCP on HDMI, High-bandwidth Digital Content Protection - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, yes- it can be bypassed. I am not convinced by your statements about SACDs. Do you have reference to help us all out? I am asking about how the data is handled off the SACD and travels thru the transport and into the player.

 

The second paragraph is very interesting- now take that HDMI out into a DSD-raw/SPDIF-3 and I would throw my money at that!

[TarnishedEars]

Interesting comments. I am aware of licensing. There are plenty of Audio DACs with HDMI inputs-even Hometheater AVRs do this (see Ted B's list). There is HDCP on HDMI, High-bandwidth Digital Content Protection - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, yes- it can be bypassed. I am not convinced by your statements about SACDs. Do you have reference to help us all out? I am asking about how the data is handled off the SACD and travels thru the transport and into the player.

 

The second paragraph is very interesting- now take that HDMI out into a DSD-raw/SPDIF-3 and I would throw my money at that!

Pehaps there are some audio-only DACs now with HDMI ports. I'm not familiar with all of the DACs on the market by a long shot so I might have been mistaken in that particular assumption. But I'd wager that these are being made by major manufacturers who also manufacture video equipment, and so they can actually afford the HDMI licensing fees.

 

I believe that my statements about SACD licensing restrictions were correct though. However I do not have the time nor the desire to spend the time finding the references which you desire to prove what I say. But you are more than welcome to disprove my assertions if you are able. However I will say this much: If it was allowable to externally decrypt SACD streams, everybody would have been outputting DSD streams from their SACD players from day one, right along with the PCM streams which they all will transmitted. But they could not do this because the licensing restrictions did not allow for them to do this. It was not until HDMI was adopted that DSD streams were allowed to exit consumer SACD players at all. Except that these streams are still encrypted.

 

The only thing which I am uncertain about is whether the encrypted DSD stream which is sent from an SACD player still contains the same encryption from the SACD itself, or if it has been first decrypted by the SACD player and then it gets re-encrypted with some other form of encryption for HDMI transfer. But the DSD stream is definitely encrypted when it exits the player, and then it becomes decrypted by the receiver.

[Norton]

It's on there somewhere. But they don't make it easy to find. Here's a vendors link to this product.

 

JVB Digital, Vanity103 HD DoP SPDIF version

 

Wow. Compared to all the overblown latest DAC hype in some other threads, this looks like a real game changer to me. Did you fit the board yourself and is it as simple as their website makes out? I'm presuming that this won't fit my 105EU model?

 

In summary, if I buy this board from them and an Oppo 103 in the UK (about £1200 together) I end up with an SACD transport to feed my Hugo DoP. Presumably this also opens up another route to make backup files of SACDs?

[One and a half]

I wouldn't get too excited just yet.

 

The DSD bitstream quality from an Oppo player is ultimately the result of the pickup, error correction methods and mechanical designs of the player. If it has lousy sonics, the DSD bitstream won't make it any better. There's the packaging of the DSD output via DoP also a question. A digital recorder like the TASCAM DA-3000 is one method to record the bitstream in real time, how this is clocked is determined by the JVB card.

 

I guess it's a matter of time before Sony come knocking on the door, by then the cat is out of the bag.

[Norton]

I wouldn't get too excited just yet.

 

The DSD bitstream quality from an Oppo player is ultimately the result of the pickup, error correction methods and mechanical designs of the player. If it has lousy sonics, the DSD bitstream won't make it any better. There's the packaging of the DSD output via DoP also a question. A digital recorder like the TASCAM DA-3000 is one method to record the bitstream in real time, how this is clocked is determined by the JVB card.

 

I guess it's a matter of time before Sony come knocking on the door, by then the cat is out of the bag.

 

I take you point entirely. My admittedly wholly subjective rationale is that 1. I already find the Oppo to be far better on SACD than CD. 2. CD replay from the Oppo is much improved when used simply as a transport into the Hugo. 3.if this board then allowed me to use the Hugo (or another DAC) to bring the same degree of improvement to SACD replay, then it would be a no brainer upgrade. It's a big "if" though I know.

[TarnishedEars]

Wow. Compared to all the overblown latest DAC hype in some other threads, this looks like a real game changer to me. Did you fit the board yourself and is it as simple as their website makes out? I'm presuming that this won't fit my 105EU model?

Yes I installed it myself. It wasn't difficult at all. And no, this is only for the 103. Although they also supposedly make a board for the 93.

In summary, if I buy this board from them and an Oppo 103 in the UK (about £1200 together) I end up with an SACD transport to feed my Hugo DoP. Presumably this also opens up another route to make backup files of SACDs?

I don't know if your Hugo accepts DoP via SP/DIF or not. If it does, then yes, it should would.

 

As far as backup goes: You would need some special software which is able to extract the DSD from the DoP packets. So actually extracting the stream in a DoP format might be a pretty tricky proposition. Although extracting A converted PCM stream would be trivial.

[Maldur]

I'm thinking that having a master clock, DSD-right and DSD-left outputs via three BNC Cables could solve some HDMI jitter/clocking issues?

 

Via three cable goes actually a SDIF-2, not SDIF-3. Latter uses method too encode clock directly into channel signal and needs only one cable per channel. So, for stereo we need two cables.

 

I think, encoded clock is better from jitter perspective, because signal is travelling exact the same distance in same environment. This method also is good when someone wants make a active loudspeakers with native DSD input (signal can travel up to 10 meter).

[TarnishedEars]

I wouldn't get too excited just yet.

 

The DSD bitstream quality from an Oppo player is ultimately the result of the pickup, error correction methods and mechanical designs of the player. If it has lousy sonics, the DSD bitstream won't make it any better. There's the packaging of the DSD output via DoP also a question. A digital recorder like the TASCAM DA-3000 is one method to record the bitstream in real time, how this is clocked is determined by the JVB card.

This card supposedly buffers and re-clocks the data to filter-out most of the Oppo's Jitter. I agree with you that the Oppo is not a fantastic transport in its stock form. But this card transforms it into an excellent transport.

[Norton]

I wouldn't get too excited just yet.

 

The DSD bitstream quality from an Oppo player is ultimately the result of the pickup, error correction methods and mechanical designs of the player. If it has lousy sonics, the DSD bitstream won't make it any better. There's the packaging of the DSD output via DoP also a question. A digital recorder like the TASCAM DA-3000 is one method to record the bitstream in real time, how this is clocked is determined by the JVB card.

 

I guess it's a matter of time before Sony come knocking on the door, by then the cat is out of the bag.

 

Given that it forms the basis of some very "high end" players, I'm guessing that the basics of the Oppo can't be too shabby.

[tailspn]

I am not convinced by your statements about SACDs. Do you have reference to help us all out? I am asking about how the data is handled off the SACD and travels thru the transport and into the player.

 

All SACD players available have a circuit board associated with the physical mechanical transport, that in addition to running the transport, decodes the dst encoded DSD bit streams. Once off that board, the DSD bit streams (one per channel), and Bit Clock make up the input to the internal DAC chip directly, if the chip supports DSD bit streams directly, or is further processed into some other format the DAC chip inputs. Every SACD capable player has raw decoded DSD bit streams and Bit Clock somewhere within, and can be tapped. Those bit streams are effectively SDIF-2, once Bit Clock is counted down to Word Clock.

[Audio_ELF]

Yes I installed it myself. It wasn't difficult at all. And no, this is only for the 103. Although they also supposedly make a board for the 93.

It wouldn't really make sense to fit this board to the BD105 anyway as (iirc) it replaces the multi-channel audio board which is the main difference between the 103 and 105 (the 105 having the higher quality board). As further upgrade you could look at PSU upgrades for the Oppo.

 

I don't know if your Hugo accepts DoP via SP/DIF or not. If it does, then yes, it should would.

The Hugo does accept DoP via SPDIF.

 

As far as backup goes: You would need some special software which is able to extract the DSD from the DoP packets. So actually extracting the stream in a DoP format might be a pretty tricky proposition. Although extracting A converted PCM stream would be trivial.

Vinyl Studio might be a possible solution. It has an option to extract DoP created by devices such as PS Audio NuWave Phono.

[TarnishedEars]

It wouldn't really make sense to fit this board to the BD105 anyway as (iirc) it replaces the multi-channel audio board which is the main difference between the 103 and 105 (the 105 having the higher quality board). As further upgrade you could look at PSU upgrades for the Oppo.

I agree completely. It would be a total waste to install one of these inside of that unit, were it even possible.

 

But I'm not convinced that I would gain anything more with some PSU mods inside of my Oppo. The combination of the Oppo with the Vanity HD driving my PS Audio DIrect Stream DAC sounds absolutely phenominal already.

The Hugo does accept DoP via SPDIF.

It's nice to see that at least a few manufacturers support this option.

Vinyl Studio might be a possible solution. It has an option to extract DoP created by devices such as PS Audio NuWave Phono.

Thanks. Thats good to know!

[pcourtney]

might be worth speaking to Jaehong at Oppomod in South Korea, many years ago I bought one of his I2S cards for my Oppo BDP-103, and this connected to my PS Audio Directstream, sounded extremely good, then I got an email from Jaehong saying they had another card, so I sold the Oppo 103 (and I2S card) with the PS Audio for about the same price as I paid originally, which was a result after years of good service

 

 

I2S Card Upgrade - $220

This is add on card which extracts the I2S signal from OPPO's internal digital audio data and transfers via HDMI to the I2S input of DAC's such as the PS Audio DAC.

With this upgrade all digital audio signals, including SACD and DSD, can be transfered to the outside of the OPPO BD player (These signals can not be transmitted by a normal S/PDIF coaxial or optical output).

Currently, there are no standards for transmitting these I2S signals, but many manufacturers are following the PS Audio standard. This specification uses the HDMI terminal physically (not the HDMI transmission standard).

Currently PS Audio, Holo Audio and Javs DACs are confirmed for compatibility.

[pcourtney]

the new Oppomod card that does DoP    http://www.oppomod.com

 

it works just as well or better than the PS Audio, and IMHO better than the old Audiopraise VANITY HD 103 cards (which you can no longer buy)  yes its $380 USD, but if you already have a really good external DAC like the Chord, or the Holo Audio    https://magnahifi.com/brand/holo-audio/

 

then you really cannot go wrong - thank you Oppomod :-)

 

HR PCM/DoP Board - $380

This board replaces the existing OPPO 203/103 analog DAC board to transmit pure high resolution PCM and SACD/DSD signal through coaxial (or AES/EBU type balanced) output.

You can enjoy high resolution 192Khz 24-bit PCM audio in BLU/DVD without the Oppo's restriction to 48Khz 16-bit downsampling. It also delivers SACD/DSD signal (as DoP: DSD over PCM) directly to external DAC's which have coaxial input enabled DoP functions.

It essentially functions like the now discontinued Vanity HD board.

Normally in order to use the DoP function, there was no other choice execpt using a USB port on notebook computer. But notebooks have a lot of EMI/EMC noise as a source device.

[Kal Rubinson]

2 hours ago, pcourtney said:

might be worth speaking to Jaehong at Oppomod in South Korea, many years ago I bought one of his I2S cards for my Oppo BDP-103, and this connected to my PS Audio Directstream, sounded extremely good, then I got an email from Jaehong saying they had another card, so I sold the Oppo 103 (and I2S card) with the PS Audio for about the same price as I paid originally, which was a result after years of good service

 

2 hours ago, pcourtney said:

the new Oppomod card that does DoP    http://www.oppomod.com

 

it works just as well or better than the PS Audio, and IMHO better than the old Audiopraise VANITY HD 103 cards (which you can no longer buy)  yes its $380 USD, but if you already have a really good external DAC like the Chord, or the Holo Audio    https://magnahifi.com/brand/holo-audio/

 

then you really cannot go wrong - thank you Oppomod :-)

of EMI/EMC noise as a source device.

All stereo only, can I presume?

[pcourtney]

yes Kal, stereo only, coax out from the Oppo and into any high end external DAC that supports DoP