How Many DACs Have You Owned? Your Journey

[Hierge]

MF X-DAC3

Korg Ergo (DAC/PRE/RC)

Tact 2.2 XP (DAC/PRE/RC)

Mytek 192 DSD DAC

 

Present plan is to seriously upgrade DAC and AMP in about 2 years and then live with those till they go in my will to someone who will appreciate them.

 

You'll die a happy man though sonically speaking.

[Hierge]

I have owned and tried out quit a few combinations og Dac's and players over the last years. Linn Majik ds (streamer/Dac) maim unitiQute 2 (streamer Dac) squeezebox touch to deqx hdp-3 (streamer to pre amp/Dac) Zuma to deqx hdp-3 to Metrum octave Nos mini ( to Metrum Dac's in active system). The Metrum Octave Nos mini, is by far the best sound i have heard from a Dac in my system so far.. I would like to build Dddac (also Nos Dac's) becorse i have those in my friends system, and i believe that the "Nos Sound" is what comes closest to my sound ideal.

 

Can you elaborate on "NOS sound" a little more. I know it is about sampling, but I've never heard a NOS DAC.

[Hierge]

 

Want to borrow more of my experience? Go back and read that sentence saying speakers matter the most. Or if you are sticking with headphones substitute headphones for speakers.

 

The other notable (goes for speakers and headphones), the amp driving these matters the next most. Hence how I came to own 7 speakers, and something like 18 amps over the same time period.

 

Speakers (or headphones) are the weak link, the bottleneck in virtually all audio systems both inexpensive and highly expensive. Does not mean upstream improvements are not heard or not worthwhile. The biggest gains are to be found in the transducers that make the actual sound you hear however.

 

I am a Paul Barton fan and his research which is pretty good on speakers. It's why I own the Stratus Goldi PSB speakers. They're ten years old, but still sound good to me. I overspent on them, but I think I could spend more than half on speakers than other equipment and be happy.

 

I'm learning about DACs that the key factors that matter are reducing jitter to inaudible levels, getting well defined instruments and soundstage, reducing brightness and digital glare, reducing external noise from power sources and electromagnetic components in a computer, getting the best possible signal from a computer to the DAC, and most importantly getting the best possible source for the music. All of these factors are less important though than speakers and headphones. Am I getting close on this? What am I missing?

[Hierge]

Over 8 years:

 

Beresford TC-7520

Weiss DAC2

Metric Halo LIO-8

BMC PureDAC

Twisted Pear Buffalo IIISE

 

Is there any DAC technology that is "must have" for you such as chipsets, transformers etc?

[Hierge]

Benchmark Dac1 USB

Benchmark 2 HGC

Audiolab M-dac

Schiit Gungnir

Arcam Irdac

Ifi Micro Idsd

Logitech Transporter

Squeezebox Touch

 

Is there any technology in DACs that is "must have" or basement level?

[Hierge]

MF X-DAC3

Korg Ergo (DAC/PRE/RC)

Tact 2.2 XP (DAC/PRE/RC)

Mytek 192 DSD DAC

 

Present plan is to seriously upgrade DAC and AMP in about 2 years and then live with those till they go in my will to someone who will appreciate them.

 

Would you mind sharing what your basement level technology will be for your DAC next purchase? Are you going to live audition in a store or use return policy if you don't love it.

[trappy]

Yes this helps me. I have older speakers but I invested in them. PSB Stratus Goldi which I've probably mentioned previously. These are my dream speakers and I tend to be a bit brand loyal if I like something. I really don't have money to invest right now, but will keep making up a shopping list for the future. For me the formula was always to spend the most on Speakers as a percentage of the total system cost. I've just noticed such a dramatic improvement on sound from CD players on Computer Audio with DAC that I am really psyched. I feel like a prospector in 1849 now. I won't probably listen to a ten thousand dollar DAC for a while or 40K speakers, but may pick up some vintage speakers I always wanted on Ebay such as Snell or M and K. May try the new cheap Pioneer speakers people are raving about. My PSB alphas are starting to feel like the weak link now, so I may have to start the upgrade path there first. Can't move my Stratus speakers into the office. Thank you so much for helping me.

 

If I don't count the CD player, which I now don't really use, but do count the computer which replaced it, my system comes in under $7000 USD. That's not THAT cheap, and it did take more than that to get there (probably an additional $2500 in losses when gear was sold,) but I really believe it would take a LOT more to get much better sound than I have, and I have zero intention of thinking about 10K Dacs and 40K speakers, never mind listening to them. At some point you have to be happy with what you have, although that point can be hard to recognize sometimes.

 

I would avoid those Pioneer speakers. Not that I think they're bad, but I think the step up from the Alphas is so small that you'd pretty much be going sideways. A friend of mine has a pair of Triangle Titus from the mid 90s that he still uses that I've always greatly admired in the bang-for-the-buck department. I think 2 or $300 for a well kept set of those or something similar would be a great value. My friend's system which is a very middle of the road NAD integrated amp, an Arcam rDAC, and the Triangles regularly makes me feel like "the fool and his money."

[Hierge]

I've upgraded directly to my current Exposure DAC from just a couple of months listening to an Airport Express analog out. I didn't have any active Hifi chain for years, and was just using a Bose sound dock with an IPod classic (I've been moving around for work for many years).

 

I'll probably stick to my current DAC setup for another 3-4 years, and even after that the biggest need for upgrade are probably the speakers first (as an interim solution, I got myself a nice headphone rig with a Sennheiser HD800/HDVA600 combo this year).

 

There is very strong sonic synergy between the Exposure DAC and amp. The Exposure DAC is relqtively average with regards to the digital implementation (but helped significantly by the Belcanto mlink USB-SPDIF), but is truly excellent on the all discreet analog side, including a very nice toroidal transformer.

 

From a convenience perspective I can control both with the same remote, which is nice.

 

I only occasionally miss native DSD, but then only have a handful of albums that don't justify a DAC change.

 

Maybe I'll throw in an Ifi Micro at some point or some similar low cost DSD wonder.

 

Can you elaborate on the sound of a toroidal transformer and why it's better strictly in terms of sound?

[Hierge]

If I don't count the CD player, which I now don't really use, but do count the computer which replaced it, my system comes in under $7000 USD. That's not THAT cheap, and it did take more than that to get there (probably an additional $2500 in losses when gear was sold,) but I really believe it would take a LOT more to get much better sound than I have, and I have zero intention of thinking about 10K Dacs and 40K speakers, never mind listening to them. At some point you have to be happy with what you have, although that point can be hard to recognize sometimes.

 

I would avoid those Pioneer speakers. Not that I think they're bad, but I think the step up from the Alphas is so small that you'd pretty much be going sideways. A friend of mine has a pair of Triangle Titus from the mid 90s that he still uses that I've always greatly admired in the bang-for-the-buck department. I think 2 or $300 for a well kept set of those or something similar would be a great value. My friend's system which is a very middle of the road NAD integrated amp, an Arcam rDAC, and the Triangles regularly makes me feel like "the fool and his money."

 

Triangle Titus, ok. Thanks for the heads up on the Pioneers. I was thinking about old Snell Jiii speakers or M and K satellites too. I like to look for the Ebay speakers that people are refoaming. They have to be good right if people go to that much trouble.

[Musicophile]

Can you elaborate on the sound of a toroidal transformer and why it's better strictly in terms of sound?

 

We have certainly better experts on power supplies in this forum than I am, but linear power supplies are generally considered superior to the switching power supplies that are often used for entry level DACs, especially in terms of noise level.

[S.o.k.]

Can you elaborate on "NOS sound" a little more. I know it is about sampling, but I've never heard a NOS DAC.

 

Yes i Will try. The Nos Dac's i have listen to Dddac (3 Dac's stacked on each other) and Metrum octave mini, both have a less "digital" (for lack of a better word) a more open and less strained sound i my opinion.. It just sounds more naturally.

[trappy]

Can you share a a little more about what you say constitutes "value" for you. Are there certain minimum technological standards you use for DACs and other equipment. I mean things like power supplies, galvanic isolation, etc. Things you cannot sacrifice for your sweet spot of value versus performance.

 

 

It's a tricky question: I don't own a house or a car, so my discretionary income for a vanity like this is probably a little higher than most peoples'. However, I'm not by any means rich and I can only go so far before embarrassment sets in. I would have loved to keep things under $5000 but it was not to be.

 

Part of that has to do with the kind of music I like. Classical music, especially opera requires some qualities that if not met can drive you a bit batty. Male operatic voices can sound sound incredibly edgy on the wrong equipment. Oddly, despite or maybe because of the amount attention paid to them, female voices seem to be an easier task. I am pretty sensitive to timbre, so I like that to be right (the Hegel and the Hugo are particularly good at timbre, IMO,) and because classical music takes place on a "stage" I like instruments to be where I expect them to be (the Hegel, which I otherwise would have loved to be able to live with fell down on that one.) On top of all that are those intangibles musicality and presence. At first I thought the exaSound a little boring because it doesn't hype the transients the way some DACs do (to make up for timing errors?) But the more I lived with it, the more I realized how "natural" it sounds, and as it burned in, the transparency and the sheer "thereness" of the performers won my heart. There are DACs/Systems I've heard that have almost all of the above, like the Peachtree DACs which also exhibit an intelligibility to vocals that surpasses almost everything I've heard, but lack that dash of presence that ties everything together.

 

If you don't listen to classical, or you're not finicky about all those things, then you can probably get away with a cheaper DAC (I think the Arcam rDAC and the Hegel HD12 are both great values) but for me the exa is the only one I've heard that has the whole package -- plus a great preamp and headamp (!) -- so that's what's value for me. I can imagine a more expensive DAC giving me MORE of that, but I wouldn't be able to justify owning one, because it wouldn't fit my idea of value.

 

In terms of bits and pieces: I don't care at all. Whatever it takes to get the job done. I don't really believe one chip or one approach is better than another -- it's all dependent on the design team and the kinds of compromises they make in fitting them all together.

 

In terms of cables, I have been sceptical. I use the usb that came with the exa as George claims that the FPGA buffer negates the need for a fancy usb cable, but I never used one on other DACs, either. However, I replaced my cheap Audioquest G-Snake interconnects with a set of Oyaide Across 750RRs and that was a definite step up. I also really like the sound of silver in speaker cables (QED Silver Anniversary -- pretty cheap.) I might someday order the power cord that Job makes to go with the amp, but I doubt I'll do anything about a custom power supply for the exa. The big changes are in the equipment, not the tweaks.

[dmormerod]

In my case it's more own, than owned, I'm in 2 minds whether to sell the Rega.

 

So I have 2 currently in my collection, a Rega DAC bought a couple of years ago and an ifi Micro iDSD bought in the last few months.

[Jud]

Hierge, with respect, I think you may be asking the wrong question. I feel it is nearly always how well a technology is implemented in a specific DAC, rather than the general type of technology used, that is important.

 

More when I have time, perhaps tomorrow.

[firedog]

Would you mind sharing what your basement level technology will be for your DAC next purchase? Are you going to live audition in a store or use return policy if you don't love it.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by basement level technology. My next DAC would have to be at least one order of magnitude better than my present DAC (Mytek192 DSD), preferably two. So in today's terms I'm thinking something at least as good as say, an Auralic Vega, but I'd be shooting for another level above that. Obviously price comes into it. I'm not wedded to any particular technology. I've heard for instance, a Devialet and a AMR DP-777, and I think they're both great - different, but both great.

 

Where I live I can't always do a live audition. So I will either have to do auditions when traveling, or buy something with a liberal return policy.

[firedog]

I am a bit shocked at how many DACs people own in a short period of time. When I buy a piece of audio equipment I expect it to last for at least 5 years or longer. I'm in this hobby for 20 years or so and I have had only 3 different amplifiers (Proton, Rotel and now Symphonic Line).

 

Part of it is audiophilla nervosa. With DACs especially, I think part of it is just that DACs have improved so much in general over the last decade, gone to hi-res/DSD, and moved from output formats like SPDIF to USB. If you have a high quality older DAC, you can often get a better DAC with more features for less money than you spent on your older DAC.

 

I'd guess most people have switched amps less often than DACs.

[REShaman]

Sorry, my first snip, hate doing it, but for conservation (REShaman):

 

I'm interested in hearing other people's journeys. Where did you start, what are your experiences and where are you now. (Hierge)

 

Hello Hierge,

 

I have owned three (3) technically figuratively speaking. My first was a Wyred4Sound Dac2 purchased in 2011. A few years later, I purchased a Wyred4Sound Dac2 DSDse. Shortly, thereafter, I purchased a Wyred4Sound Dac2 DSDse with Femto Clock upgrade. The resemblance is uncanny.

 

My journey involved carving a UPS groove from NY to California and back several times. Had I been a visionary, I would have purchased UPS stock beforehand. Strangest thing, other than the difference in the display window from VFD blue to OLE green and a completely different sounding formerly Dac2, after all this time I can not tell them apart. What I saved on packaging alone merits the choices.

 

Only recently, thank you to a fellow CA member who is also an W4S Dac2 owner, did I learn that my third W4S Dac2 DSDse has always been capable of processing DSD 256 and allegedly DSD 512 all along. If I only knew then what I know now. Experienced DSD 256. Have yet to crank up the DSD 512 propeller.

 

Pardon my indulgence, enjoying the play on a theme. If a mea culpa is order, consider the order placed.

 

Enjoy the music,

Richard

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

I have owned quite a few, always bought second hand to limit the damage (several old Wadias, Counterpoint DA-10, Calyx Femto, Ayre QB-9, Mytek, Nuforce DAC-9...). Interestingly I am happy now with the least expensive I have had: Nuforce Icon HD, which I find well "balanced" - not overally analytical or "lush", and works well with all musical genres.

[Hierge]

 

I would avoid those Pioneer speakers. Not that I think they're bad, but I think the step up from the Alphas is so small that you'd pretty much be going sideways. A friend of mine has a pair of Triangle Titus from the mid 90s that he still uses that I've always greatly admired in the bang-for-the-buck department. I think 2 or $300 for a well kept set of those or something similar would be a great value. My friend's system which is a very middle of the road NAD integrated amp, an Arcam rDAC, and the Triangles regularly makes me feel like "the fool and his money."

 

Talking about speakers, I have been looking up equipment mentioned on this thread. You discuss your Ellis speakers. I looked them up and they are a rare item it seems. Ellis apparently used to sell kits and you'd make your own enclosure from what I can tell. He sold the rights to a company called Salk and if I'm right they sell components. I saw the reviews on these speakers and they are in the stratospheric region with pure grain alcohol and approval ratings for Jesus Christ. How would one get a set of these speakers used or in kit form? Did you build the cabinet?

[Hierge]

I have owned quite a few, always bought second hand to limit the damage (several old Wadias, Counterpoint DA-10, Calyx Femto, Ayre QB-9, Mytek, Nuforce DAC-9...). Interestingly I am happy now with the least expensive I have had: Nuforce Icon HD, which I find well "balanced" - not overally analytical or "lush", and works well with all musical genres.

 

I will look the Nuforce Icon and others up. Question, did you demo these before buying or did you go on other technical factors? And if your decisions were based on technical factors, what are those factors?

[maheshkc]

Yamaha go46

Benchmark dac1 usb

Hegel hd 20

Luxman da-06

now i am almost satisfied

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

I forgot also a Bel Canto and a Dangerous Music Source...

 

No demos unfortunately - difficult to do - hence second hand purchases. Reviews and word of mouth. Technical factors I find interesting to know about but have never based a purchase on (with the exception of the Regen!).

 

Paradoxically, I have learned to only trust my ears. Some of the DACs with the most glowing reviews I could barely stand listening to (am thinking of the Mytek, never tried it with DSD, though). The only DAC right now I would be interested in listening to is the Jeff Rowland Aeris, but totally outside my budget! Seems like it also has that quality of balance/coherence. So many DAC s seem to do some things really well but others less so that you end up really missing...

[trappy]

Talking about speakers, I have been looking up equipment mentioned on this thread. You discuss your Ellis speakers. I looked them up and they are a rare item it seems. Ellis apparently used to sell kits and you'd make your own enclosure from what I can tell. He sold the rights to a company called Salk and if I'm right they sell components. I saw the reviews on these speakers and they are in the stratospheric region with pure grain alcohol and approval ratings for Jesus Christ. How would one get a set of these speakers used or in kit form? Did you build the cabinet?

 

Dave Ellis doesn't do the kits anymore, alas. But Jim Salk continues to make the 1801 in several variants, with some really spectacular woodworking. He's a real gentleman and it was a pleasure doing business with him. The only thing I would caution you on is that DIYers tend to be a little, erm, hyperbolic in their reviews. But more than one person has compared them favourably with the Dynaudio Special 25, which is a stonking good speaker in my book, so...

 

As I mentioned before the Ellis speakers can be somewhat finicky. They can sound good with a wide range of electronics, but making them sound great is a bit tougher. The Job225 is a great solid state partner. Dave maintains that an EL34 tube amp is best for them. I beg to differ...

[Melvin]

As long as we’re sharing, my DAC journey began about 7 years ago with my then budding interest in computer audio. The Audioengine AW1 was my first. This little streaming-device/DAC allowed me to get the music from my computer (located on one side of the room) to my stereo system (18 ft. away) without wires or wifi. I was hooked. Since then I’ve purchased several DACs:

 

- HRT Music Streamer+

- Musical Fidelity V-DAC

- dB Audio Labs Tranquility DAC (since upgraded)

- Schiit Bifrost

- Chord Qute EX (upgraded from the HD)

 

and a couple of USB-S/PDIF converters:

 

- SOtM dx-USB HD & matching SOtM mBPS-d2s 9 volt power supply

- Bel Canto mLink

 

When I finally decided to reconfigure my system to include a Mac mini, I purchased the HRT DAC (adaptive USB-only input and limited to 16/48) and uses the PCM1794 (8 x oversampling) chip. The difference in sound quality was remarkable.

 

Then came the V-DAC which is also limited to 16/48 over it’s adaptive USB input and handles up to 24/96 on Toslink and coax. It uses a Burr-Brown DSD1792 (8 x oversampling) chip. This upgrade gave me more inputs, some high res capability, and was inexpensive. A nice bump in sound quality.

 

The Tranquility DAC took me in a very different direction .. NOS. This DAC is also limited to 16/48 through it’s adaptive USB-only input (yes, back to that) and uses the TDA1543 chip. The manufacturer claims many proprietary optimizations and enhancements. I have since had this DAC upgraded for further refinement and continue to use it regularly. I love this DAC and the huge leap in sound quality it brought to my system.

 

The Bifrost came about from a desire to hear hi-res (up to 24/192) at it’s native rate. This DAC has been well-reviewed and deserves is reputation. It uses the AKM4399 chip and was (perhaps still is) a bargain at it’s price point.

 

Finally the Qute EX .. this DAC does it all (FPGA up to 32/384 and DSD128) and is just superb with Redbook. I couldn’t be happier and am off the DAC merry-go-round. Done. Promise. No, really, I'm done!

[Jimmypowder]

Is there any technology in DACs that is "must have" or basement level?

 

The technology in the Ifi Micro Idsd for 499 bucks is all you need . While the Bencmark 2 Hgc has better clarity

the Ifi dac plays all the files you will ever be able to play , is future proof .

 

If I had to rank my top three in what I prefer

1) ifi Micro idsd

2) benchmark 2 hgc

3) Schiit Gungnir