UpTone Audio USB Regen Listening Impressions

[sandyk]

For now the choice of USB cabling is a minor point, ideally the output of the regen should be a short as possible to the DAC. It's also possible to fall into the trap of differing potentials of the USB shield from the Regen and the DAC using different power supplies, but Uptone may shed some light on this issue if they could?

 

Perhaps a battery powered Regen ?

[sandyk]

Off topic:

I was talking about my preference for not using a preamp with someone (running direct from DAC to amps) and this person stated his preamp made things sound better. I wondered if two preamps would make it even better :~)

Chris

Many commercial DACs have output stages that are markedly affected by cable vagaries due to not having a low enough output impedance. A high quality Preamp with a low Z output stage may have worthwhile advantages in that case.

At a listening session a while back, we compared digital volume control with a DSD capable W4S with a preamp capable of driving a 75 ohm cable directly, (if needed) and the Preamp route was preferred by all those present.

I do however strongly agree with you about well implemented Digital vs. Vinyl though. (grin)

 

Regards

Alex

[sandyk]

It seems a bit weird to me, to suggest that an adaptor with internal leads perhaps 2.5CM long could do too much damage in comparison with a PC's much longer internal cable to a front USB port for example. I suspect that the data and power lines in that cable are highly unlikely to be separately shielded. With a PC where the +5V isn't needed, you could perhaps cut the red wire right at the plug where it is connected to the motherboard.

 

Alex

[sandyk]

Well that's all before the REGEN and affects just what feeds it (who uses an internal-cable-attached front panel USB port for their music output anyway? ).

I would be surprised if some of your customers don't use it this way. There are quite a few PC owners who use USB audio, not just Mac Mini owners.The Regen may realise marked improvements, but I doubt that the quality of the incoming USB cable and the S.I. from the computer is no longer of concern. It obviously is, or there wouldn't be a resistor in series with the 0 volts line at the Regen's Input.

[sandyk]

Also notice it would be quarter to three in the A.M. California time when he posted, so I don't think Mr. C ought to be held responsible for anything he said at that hour.

 

He probably just finished putting together YOUR Amber Regen ! (evil grin)

G'Night from Sydney Au.

[sandyk]

Computer Audio 101... Never use the front USB ports.

 

With PC's in particular, they are often placed with their rear near a wall so that all the "spaghetti" at the back isn't obvious.

What is worse, a shorter USB 2.0 cable plugged into a front port, or a much longer USB 2.0 cable from a rear port coming out to the front where it can be used with another device so that it is readily accessible ? As I suggested, if a front port is used exclusively for the USB Audio device, and the USB device doesn't need to see incoming noisy +5V, then with an internal USB 2.0 cable, it should be quite easy to snip the red wire right at the end of the plug going into the motherboard.

 

Alex

 

[sandyk]

People forget that a Dac is just a modulated power supply at heart.

 

The quality of the power determines the SI and most other things in Digital, which operates in the analog world. Electricity is analog…only the info scheme is digital and the interpretation process will get off kilter, the lower the power quality is at various stages.

 

It really in stone age thinking to believe that Bit perfection and or Jitter is the be-all and end all of good sound. We still have a ways to go to fully understand the digital audio domain.

 

Yet most people are attempting to shut the gate after the horse has bolted ! Very few appear to be paying enough attention to the PSU area right from the start,(ripping /conversion stage) and attempt to correct all of the problems at the input to the DAC.

[sandyk]

Very interesting. So you've contending that ripping or conversion provides some sound anomalies if not done right.

That may be the case as personally I find software like HQ player output better sound when they sample DSD than other in the field.

Sadly I would assume this is not possible to be measured; as few naysayers would insist on having.

 

C.A. member Alfe recently posted this

Just a reminder a good quality rip is more dependant of the quality of the drive and the power supply than the software used.

Alfe is a highly experienced R&D guy, and he even designed the internal LG GGW H20L BR writer that I use for ripping my CDs.

My reports about Rips using different PSU's are well documented here in C.A. , and were verified in HiFiCritic Vol.6 No.1 as sounding different, despite having identical checksums, after a series of 6 3 minute Blind A/B/A/ listening sessions.

 

Alex

[sandyk]

Alex C

If you continue at this rate, you may need to consider setting up your own UpTone Audio Forum ?

Regards

Alex K.

[sandyk]

Are you getting snow down there? We are hot and miserable here in Central California right now.

 

Cheers,

AJC

Hi Alex C .

We could do with a little of your heat here, but without the horrendous bushfires!

You could probably use some of our relatively light rainfall for days at a time too !

Presently , it's more like a U.K. summer here, or what passes for summer in places like Scotland.

When you finish your summer, Elvis and the other big Firefighting choppers will once again prepare to head Downunder again.

Kind Regards

Alex K

 

 

Sydney

 

 

The Weather Channel

Showers

Today

Showers17°c High 7°c Low

 

Mon

Showers19°c High 8°c Low

 

Tue

Showers20°c High 11°c Low

[sandyk]

Very good question !! I wonder that too from time to time, after about 40 years in this hobby

 

After >60 years in this hobby, I still wonder too.

[sandyk]

After 80 years in this hobby, I sometimes forget what we are...

 

Unlike you, Tom, mine are genuine years in the hobby, as a friend of the family introduced me to "cat's whiskers" (Crystal sets) and WW2 Disposals headphones before I was even a teenager.

 

Alex

[sandyk]

Quote Originally Posted by JohnSwenson View Post

 

For a true choke input supply just make sure you set the critical inductance appropriate for the minimum current load.

John S.

30mA takes care of that already I have a nice custom lundahl 600mA choke I can put to good use then.

 

 

30 mA ???

 

 

13V AC -> choke input ~9V@30mA, ~7V@500mA should work fine. Can the regen regulator withstand 13V DC for 1-2 seconds at power on?

 

 

Do you mean 13V DC -> choke input ?

[sandyk]

What about at 12Vdc and the dac doesn't use any BUS power? Does it degrade or just quit working?

 

The voltage regulators will be dissipating well under 1/2 a watt in heat, so it should last just as long.(perhaps even longer ?)

[sandyk]

There seems to be a strong consensus thus far, that two Regens are better than one, but despite my concerns for potentially longer delivery waits in the future than we're experiencing now, due to an increase in the rate of sales vs. the rate of production (I'm happy for you Alex!), I would like to read of at least four or five people saying that they can hear improvements with amber-into-amber (instead of green-into-amber), along with some kind of quantification as to how much difference the 2nd amber makes vs. the difference made by the 1st amber on its own. Quantification of improvements is so difficult to put into words and very subjective, of course, but I'd welcome attempts to do so.

 

I would even welcome an assessment of amber-into-amber by Alex or John, despite the possibility their opinions might be taken with a grain of salt.

It seems quite possible that the new mystery PSU add-on may negate any further advantage from using 2 Regens in tandem.

[sandyk]

Are you saying that you adjusted it to 7.5v using your multimeter, but it still displays 0.4v on the LED display?

 

- Gary

I expect that he means that there was a difference in readings of 400mV between the cheap onboard display and his D.M.M.

 

Alex

[sandyk]

I have used a +5V external Linear PSU with a JLH PSU add-on, and a modified USB cable with no +5V connected, for powering USB Memory Sticks for music storage.

The PSU used a transformer with 2 secondary windings, so I decided to use each winding with a separate PSU PCB for 2 separate +5V Linear PSUs.

However, neither +5V supply gave SQ results as good as with 2 entirely separate supplies, despite using 2 separate PSU PCBs with their own filter capacitors and voiltage regulators.

I ended up making them in 2 separate cases with their own transformers etc.

Alex.

[sandyk]

... first one who tries telling me again that "bits are bits" gets a nutkick

it's so true that even powering my NAS and ethernet switch from a LPS made a huge difference: and that's before computer and Regen, where bits are really supposed to be just bits

 

The same applies to CD rips made to different storage medium, even burned to CD-R, when using much cleaner power instead of the original SMPS for both the Optical and Storage devices. Even using short SATA 3 6GB/s cables with their inbuilt screening, instead of generic long SATA cables makes a difference, as does unplugging the PC from a Broadband Modem.

Even using Windows XP and W7 in Safe Mode while ripping, resulted in better sounding rips. I haven't tried that with W8/64 though, as it's a P.I.T.A. to get into Safe Mode.

 

Alex

[sandyk]

You can use a file copy to put those CD rips or other digital files into a RAM disk. Power down all unnecessary devices, and then play from the RAM disk. This will remove the effect of the devices you discuss.

 

My point here, is that despite having identical checksums when ripped back to a HDD etc. ,that .wav files burned to the SAME CD-R using much cleaner power vs. normal internal SMPS, STILL sound better when played back by a correctly functioning CD/DVD player. Also, these files when transmitted over the Internet, provided the distant end gear is not RF/EMI riddled , still sound different when saved to say a USB memory stick as Martin Colloms did, and played in this case by a Naim Unitiserve. The results of 6 separate Blind A/B/A 3 minute sessions were published in HiFi Critic Vol.6 No.1

 

Alex

 

P.S.

How about we now get this thread back on it's original topic ?

[sandyk]

I then moved to a Mundorf mlytic 47000uF main storage capacitor which sounded much cleaner and larger then a 10 x 4700uF nichicon he capacitor bank I tried before.

 

Electrolytic capacitors have a broad resonant frequency where the impedance is much lower. Parallel a pile of the same type and capacitance and you will get a deeper notch in that area. A more neutral sounding capacitor bank may use a number of capacitors of different values in parallel.

[sandyk]

Just accept the fact that you will be deaf as a HardiPlank by then...

 

Gene therapy may possibly become mainstream, hopefully well before either you or Jud kick the bucket!

[sandyk]

Thanks for the reply!

I've tried it all unfortunately... every time, the last step gets the windows 'system' process running at full speed on one processor but no access to the idsd. Tried letting it run like this for 15 minutes then decided it was more than enough

 

You will need to use W7 or later for proper USB support .

[sandyk]

That's not true at all. Many of us use Windows XP with no issues. As far as USB, not all are created equal. I did have to find the correct USB terminal to get my Regen to be recognised by my 11 year old XP's Sound & Audio Devices. Rebooting with the Regen connected also helps.

 

2. New technology

 

Using an operating system that’s more than a decade old can also paint you into a corner when it comes to the peripherals and devices you can use with it. As new technologies are developed, they’re generally engineered with the latest operating systems in mind, and unlikely to be supported on Windows XP.

 

 

 

USB 3.0 is a prime example. Most USB 3.0 devices will still work—in a technical sense—with Windows XP because they’re backward-compatible. However, they will fall back to USB 2.0 compatibility and transfer data at about one-tenth of the potential speed of USB 3.0. Also note that even USB 3.0 is getting long in the tooth and will eventually be replaced by even faster technologies that Windows XP will not be able to take advantage of.

 

Whether you’re looking at wireless printers, Bluetooth keyboards, or 4K monitors, it will be challenging if not impossible to find drivers and support to make new technologies work with Windows XP.

 

Windows XP holdouts: 3 reasons you must upgrade now. Yes, now. | PCWorld

[sandyk]

That has absolutely nothing to do with the implementation of the Regen in one's XP system.

 

Even with recent Windows and Mac installations, USB device identification can be problematical, especially when the USB port's +5V isn't used, requiring restarts etc. and in Windows a series of failed identifications may result in the USB port's power being blocked. System Restore appears to be the best option if that happens, even if it doesn't successfully restore, as it writes back the fault counters.

[sandyk]

That is unnecessary.

 

I would be interested to see how you do that, as the usual online recommendations haven't worked for me.

These days if I know that I will want to use a device that Windows 8/64 has trouble identifying, I plug it in before starting up the PC.Even devices such as WD Elements USB 3.0 HDDs won't always be seen until you do a Restart.