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Do music servers improve SQ over spinning discs?


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Shades of Ivor Tiefenbrun and LOI (loss of information).

 

Hi Jud,

 

I believe this is true about many things in audio, not just properly done servers.

 

Two things that come to mind are proper vibration isolation and cables.

I don't think either one makes the sound "better." The best that can be done is to *not* make it worse (or to prevent it from being worse), which to my mind, is no small achievement considering how infrequently this occurs. ;-}

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

http://www.soundkeeperrecordings.wordpress.com

Barry Diament Audio

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@1.5 - I absolutely get it. Sometimes to put things in perspective I will take a few spinners, vinyl and CDs, take them to a fancy store and listen to what is possible. It is an eye-opener how far CA still has to go, convenience ( and in case of vinyl the hiss and pops) being a double-edged sword. Convenience of immediate fuss-free playback vs convenience of having your whole library at your fingertips.

 

Yes, the lord giveth and taketh away to quote a very old book.

AS Profile Equipment List        Say NO to MQA

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One thing to consider is that, as I often say, what is "good", "better" or "best" depends entirely upon what one seeks.

With this in mind, I would not be surprised when some folks prefer the sound they get from their CD player or transport.

 

Assuming the server is properly set up, they might just like the "color" they get from the player or transport.

I'd never argue with whatever brings anyone their listening pleasure.

 

My own preference in this case (when I say I want the gear to "get out of the way") is to hear the sound of the master used to create the replicated discs. Ever since I created my first CD master, back in January of 1983, and listened to the manufactured disc that came back, I've been saying that CDs do *not* sound like the masters used to create them.

 

I find this is still true in April of 2015. Far as we've come, playback from any transport or player in my experience does not sound like the master from which the spinning discs are made. However, there is some good news: If the disc is reasonably well made and extracted (i.e., "ripped") to a computer drive in a raw PCM format such as .aif or .wav, to me the results, played from the computer, sound indistinguishable from the master used to create the discs.

 

This is why I say playback from a properly set up server does a better job of getting out of the way.

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

http://www.soundkeeperrecordings.wordpress.com

Barry Diament Audio

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One thing to consider is that, as I often say, what is "good", "better" or "best" depends entirely upon what one seeks.

With this in mind, I would not be surprised when some folks prefer the sound they get from their CD player or transport.

 

Assuming the server is properly set up, they might just like the "color" they get from the player or transport.

I'd never argue with whatever brings anyone their listening pleasure.

 

My own preference in this case (when I say I want the gear to "get out of the way") is to hear the sound of the master used to create the replicated discs. Ever since I created my first CD master, back in January of 1983, and listened to the manufactured disc that came back, I've been saying that CDs do *not* sound like the masters used to create them.

 

I find this is still true in April of 2015. Far as we've come, playback from any transport or player in my experience does not sound like the master from which the spinning discs are made. However, there is some good news: If the disc is reasonably well made and extracted (i.e., "ripped") to a computer drive in a raw PCM format such as .aif or .wav, to me the results, played from the computer, sound indistinguishable from the master used to create the discs.

 

This is why I say playback from a properly set up server does a better job of getting out of the way.

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

www.soundkeeperrecordings.wordpress.com

Barry Diament Audio

 

Barry,

 

The structure of the pits and their influence on the amplitude of the samples will not allow you to get a sound indistinguishable from the master.

 


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Barry,

 

The structure of the pits and their influence on the amplitude of the samples will not allow you to get a sound indistinguishable from the master.

 

Hi alfe,

 

I suspect there are several reasons for the discrepancies. ;-}

 

The thing is, most of the folks I've spoken with a dozens of plants all believe their product is indistinguishable.

Of all the folks I've spoken with since 1983, at dozens of plants all over the world, only one said (with no prompting from me) the discs will never sound like the masters.

 

Interestingly, the plant he works for makes the most-like-the-master discs I've heard to date -- and by a good margin.

I guess this makes sense as folks who believe everything is perfect are not going to take any steps to make it better.

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

http://www.soundkeeperrecordings.wordpress.com

Barry Diament Audio

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Hi bigblue,

 

I would put it in a slightly different cast:

Music servers do *not* improve SQ over spinning discs.

What they do is not *degrade* the SQ as much.

Or, perhaps more clearly, a properly set up music server does a better job of getting out of the way.

 

I wrote about this last year in a blog entry called Listening to Tomorrow.

The journal HiFi Critic reprinted an edited version of it.

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

www.soundkeeperrecordings.wordpress.com

Barry Diament Audio

 

Hi Barry:

 

What you write is, of course, correct. But doesn't the same logic apply when comparing any two items in the reproduction chain: sources. preamps, amps, speakers, cables, etc.? Isn't it true that none of these "improve" sound quality, but some degrade it less than others?

 

The end result, however, is that some gear sounds better than other gear. :)

"Relax, it's only hi-fi. There's never been a hi-fi emergency." - Roy Hall

"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." - William Bruce Cameron

 

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Barry,

 

The structure of the pits and their influence on the amplitude of the samples will not allow you to get a sound indistinguishable from the master.

 

You mean when playing from the silver disc? Yep. Ripping the disc however, is an entirely different kettle of fish. You can get the exact data from the disc, and then send it along to the DAC of your choice.

 

When ripping, the structure of the CD does not matter much, if any at all. You either get the exact data or you don't. No in between at all, since you are talking purly about DATA here, not music.

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

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Hi Barry:

 

What you write is, of course, correct. But doesn't the same logic apply when comparing any two items in the reproduction chain: sources. preamps, amps, speakers, cables, etc.? Isn't it true that none of these "improve" sound quality, but some degrade it less than others?

 

Hi Allan,

 

I would agree.

(See post #26.)

 

The end result, however, is that some gear sounds better than other gear. :)

 

Or perhaps, some gear "sounds" less than other gear. ;-}

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

http://www.soundkeeperrecordings.wordpress.com

Barry Diament Audio

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Hi Jud,

 

I believe this is true about many things in audio, not just properly done servers.

 

Two things that come to mind are proper vibration isolation and cables.

I don't think either one makes the sound "better." The best that can be done is to *not* make it worse (or to prevent it from being worse), which to my mind, is no small achievement considering how infrequently this occurs. ;-}

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

www.soundkeeperrecordings.wordpress.com

Barry Diament Audio

 

Yep.

 

Thought experiment:

 

Have the source turned on and playing, with the rest of your system turned off.

 

Zero distortion at the output.

 

Zero music too, because all the information from the source is lost.

 

There's a difference between lowest distortion and providing the greatest degree of information from the input to the output. There is certainly a relationship between lowest distortion and greatest resemblance of output to input, but they are not identical (at least taking "distortion" as meaning the usual spec numbers).

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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Hi Allan,

 

I would agree.

(See post #26.)

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

www.soundkeeperrecordings.wordpress.com

Barry Diament Audio

 

Oops! Sorry for being redundant. I should have looked back further. :)

"Relax, it's only hi-fi. There's never been a hi-fi emergency." - Roy Hall

"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." - William Bruce Cameron

 

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You mean when playing from the silver disc? Yep. Ripping the disc however, is an entirely different kettle of fish. You can get the exact data from the disc, and then send it along to the DAC of your choice.

 

When ripping, the structure of the CD does not matter much, if any at all. You either get the exact data or you don't. No in between at all, since you are talking purly about DATA here, not music.

 

As usual Paul, equal to yourself :)

 


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Yep.

 

Thought experiment:

 

Have the source turned on and playing, with the rest of your system turned off.

 

Zero distortion at the output.

 

Zero music too, because all the information from the source is lost.

 

There's a difference between lowest distortion and providing the greatest degree of information from the input to the output. There is certainly a relationship between lowest distortion and greatest resemblance of output to input, but they are not identical (at least taking "distortion" as meaning the usual spec numbers).

 

Hi Jud,

 

I see it differently. Even the abstract of numerical representation of the sound (i.e, the usual specs) must have a context.

We can't have zero distortion and all the information lost at the same time.

If the source is playing and there is no output (the rest of the system is turned off), I would say the distortion is 100%.

 

Perhaps this is a good example of how common specs can be misleading. ?

Lose the context and the value gets lost too.

Zero noise, zero harmonic distortion, but zero sound as well. ;-}

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

http://www.soundkeeperrecordings.wordpress.com

Barry Diament Audio

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Hi Jud,

 

I see it differently. Even the abstract of numerical representation of the sound (i.e, the usual specs) must have a context.

We can't have zero distortion and all the information lost at the same time.

If the source is playing and there is no output (the rest of the system is turned off), I would say the distortion is 100%.

 

Perhaps this is a good example of how common specs can be misleading. ?

Lose the context and the value gets lost too.

Zero noise, zero harmonic distortion, but zero sound as well. ;-}

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

www.soundkeeperrecordings.wordpress.com

Barry Diament Audio

 

I would also say all the value is lost. The idea is that faithful reproduction does not lie exclusively in minimizing specific distortion specs, but in getting as much of the original input information as possible to the output, and that these two things (minimizing distortion specs, making the output resemble the input as closely as possible) may not be the same in a given case.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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Agree w Eloise on the suggestion. Playing from a library is a distinctively different experience.

 

Also a few points I'd make:

1- CDs will generally sound as good or better generally (assuming good hardware).

2- A computer can do things to improve on redbook - eg HQPlayer

3- You can get a DAC that will be better than the Oppo for not much money (Ifi?)

4- You can access high res downloads and have them as part of your library

 

One drawback is SACDs if you have many and no way to rip them. I can rip SACDs with a PS3 and all that jazz but I would not call the process seamless - and that's if you can find an appropriate PS3.

NUC10i7 + Roon ROCK > dCS Rossini APEX DAC + dCS Rossini Master Clock 

SME 20/3 + SME V + Dynavector XV-1s or ANUK IO Gold > vdH The Grail or Kondo KSL-SFz + ANK L3 Phono 

Audio Note Kondo Ongaku > Avantgarde Duo Mezzo

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One drawback is SACDs if you have many and no way to rip them. I can rip SACDs with a PS3 and all that jazz but I would not call the process seamless - and that's if you can find an appropriate PS3.

 

With this potentially on the horizon as an easier way, but "on the horizon" could be a heck of a long time....

 

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/funding-making-sacd-ripping-available-through-universal-serial-bus-industry-standard-cables-connectors-and-communications-protocols-between-computers-and-electronic-devices-22124/

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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Possibly... Still very likely to be a far more painful process than XLD or the like.

 

I do have to warn the OP that the proper process of ripping also involves tagging, and this is often not a one-time thing.

 

Additionally, one more comment - in my experience: Computer audio, that is one with a computer as opposed to a tailored server or renderer, can be a bit of a techie journey. Aside from the issues of the random software update that breaks everything, the flexibility of it means you keep trying new things, and "unfortunately" this pays off technically: you will find tweaks/software/etc that make your system sound better, HQPlayer being a prime example. You'd call this "good" except the futzing around draws you away from the music in my opinion.

 

So you might very legitimately decide to do computer audio the server way and be done with it. Could you conceivably get better performance after futzing around with software, hardware, etc? Yes, definitely yes. Is it worth your time? Is it worth the detraction from the music itself? YMMV. I'm on the fence.

 

Finally one more comment: Oppo is nice and everything, but a higher end CD/SACD player WILL make your CDs sound better. No doubt.

NUC10i7 + Roon ROCK > dCS Rossini APEX DAC + dCS Rossini Master Clock 

SME 20/3 + SME V + Dynavector XV-1s or ANUK IO Gold > vdH The Grail or Kondo KSL-SFz + ANK L3 Phono 

Audio Note Kondo Ongaku > Avantgarde Duo Mezzo

Signal cables: Kondo Silver, Crystal Cable phono

Power cables: Kondo, Shunyata, van den Hul

system pics

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I have a mac mini tweaked to death but still can't compete with my CDP which cost more than a small car:)

I have an EmmLabs XDS1 v2 with the latest firmware (Nov 2014). Sounds fantastic (there's glowing review by Phil Gold from Jan 2015). I'd say redbook with HQPlayer sounds a bit better - into the same DAC (ie the XDS1 as a USB DAC). Is it worth the pain in terms of SQ alone? I don't think so.

NUC10i7 + Roon ROCK > dCS Rossini APEX DAC + dCS Rossini Master Clock 

SME 20/3 + SME V + Dynavector XV-1s or ANUK IO Gold > vdH The Grail or Kondo KSL-SFz + ANK L3 Phono 

Audio Note Kondo Ongaku > Avantgarde Duo Mezzo

Signal cables: Kondo Silver, Crystal Cable phono

Power cables: Kondo, Shunyata, van den Hul

system pics

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The futzing around with the computer is why I started looking for something else. I got so tired of the constant tweaks and upgrades that weren't really upgrades. I thought to myself that if I was going to do that I was just going to buy a NOS1 at that time. In the end I'm really happy with the direction I chose.

W10 NUC i7 (Gen 10) > Roon (Audiolense FIR) > Motu UltraLite mk5 > (4) Hypex NCore NC502MP > JBL M2 Master Reference +4 subs

 

Watch my Podcast https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXMw_bZWBMtRWNJQfTJ38kA/videos

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The futzing around with the computer is why I started looking for something else. I got so tired of the constant tweaks and upgrades that weren't really upgrades. I thought to myself that if I was going to do that I was just going to buy a NOS1 at that time. In the end I'm really happy with the direction I chose.

 

It is ironic that quite a few have come to CA to come to the conclusion that there still is a gaping hole in what the end customer desires and what is currently available.

 

In addition all that futzing around with time-consuming and complicated work arounds, constant hardware, OS, and software updating, the requirement of needing an electrical and computer engineering degree to accomplish much of it is frustrating as hell.

 

All the tweaking I have done is not out of a curiosity or fun factor, but purely because otherwise computer audio is not enjoyable/listenable to my ears. With the streamers and streamer/DACs we are getting closer (almost full circle....remember Squeezebox?) but it is still not simple for the end consumer of music.

 

Cheers

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When ripping, the structure of the CD does not matter much, if any at all. You either get the exact data or you don't. No in between at all, since you are talking purly about DATA here, not music.

 

"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it's the illusion of knowledge" Daniel J. Boorstin.

 


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The futzing around with the computer is why I started looking for something else. I got so tired of the constant tweaks and upgrades that weren't really upgrades. I thought to myself that if I was going to do that I was just going to buy a NOS1 at that time. In the end I'm really happy with the direction I chose.

Indeed. This is why I got an Aries, which on paper was the best thing since sliced bread. Really perfect feature-wise. Alas I'm using it only for TIDAL so complexity has not gone down. If only I had moved my mini to the office as I set up the Aries, I would've been fine.

NUC10i7 + Roon ROCK > dCS Rossini APEX DAC + dCS Rossini Master Clock 

SME 20/3 + SME V + Dynavector XV-1s or ANUK IO Gold > vdH The Grail or Kondo KSL-SFz + ANK L3 Phono 

Audio Note Kondo Ongaku > Avantgarde Duo Mezzo

Signal cables: Kondo Silver, Crystal Cable phono

Power cables: Kondo, Shunyata, van den Hul

system pics

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