wakibaki Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Is some music better than other music? If no, then why bother with multiple takes in the studio? If yes, then is Rock & Roll better than Country & Western? Mike zerO Romeo Oscar November http://wakibaki.com Link to comment
esldude Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 If yes, then is Rock & Roll better than Country & Western? Obviously yes. At least if you ask me. snip then why bother with multiple takes in the studio? Well, the musician may have in mind how it should sound, and makes mistakes. It therefore doesn't conform to the idea he or she had in mind. So you do another take to eliminate mistakes. This has nothing to do with whether music is better or worse, but simply if it was done as intended. Now of course the musician may try out different things intentionally to listen to the takes. In that case, at least in the musicans mind one or the other version is better. Is some music better than other music? Obviously it is a preference that is subjective. One's preference is formed from many things like when they were growing up, what culture, what training and exposure to music they have had etc. etc. I found a short article that explains what I think of it better than I could myself. https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/sex-drugs-and-boredom/201206/are-some-works-art-better-others In summary most art works within conventions. Music has conventions that differ in the genre involved. Artists work within those conventions, but some are better at using those conventions and sometimes knowing just when to break those conventions more than others. So some music will show more creativity and artistry in working those conventions (or rarely in creating new conventions that are pleasing or effective). So given the idea some music is more artful then some music is better in that manner. And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. Link to comment
rodrigaj Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 If one is willing to invest some time in understanding "classical music", it can be quite an experience. I don't think any other genre can compare. (My opinion only and not intended to diminish the other genres.) "The function of music is to release us from the tyranny of conscious thought", Sir Thomas Beecham. Link to comment
InfernoSTi Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Yes. Whichever one brings the listener more emotional impact is the better music for that person... Positive emotions enhance our musical experiences. Synology DS213+ NAS -> Auralic Vega w/Linear Power Supply -> Auralic Vega DAC (Symposium Jr rollerball isolation) -> XLR -> Auralic Taurus Pre -> XLR -> Pass Labs XA-30.5 power amplifier (on 4" maple and 4 Stillpoints) -> Hawthorne Audio Reference K2 Speakers in MTM configuration (Symposium Jr HD rollerball isolation) and Hawthorne Audio Bass Augmentation Baffles (Symposium Jr rollerball isolation) -> Bi-amped w/ two Rythmic OB plate amps) -> Extensive Room Treatments (x2 SRL Acoustics Prime 37 diffusion plus key absorption and extensive bass trapping) and Pi Audio Uberbuss' for the front end and amplification Link to comment
Allan F Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 I can't believe that people are actually replying as if the original post was serious. "Relax, it's only hi-fi. There's never been a hi-fi emergency." - Roy Hall "Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." - William Bruce Cameron Link to comment
petaluma Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Is some music better than other music? If no, then why bother with multiple takes in the studio? If yes, then is Rock & Roll better than Country & Western? Wakibaki, are you looking to start a cat fight..... On the list of cat fight starter mechanisms its just behind objectivism vs subjectivism and climate change.....Let the games begin. Now who gets to light the torch???? "The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place". George Bernard Shaw. Link to comment
Audiophile Neuroscience Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Yes - Good music is better than bad music ;-) Sound Minds Mind Sound Link to comment
Musicophile Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Whether the question was serious or not, it is a very interesting question. Like with all art, "good" or "bad" doens't have any objective measures. Why is a Picasso good and your grandfather's oil landscape painting bad? You certainly have to differentiate between "I like this music" and the quality. There are certain genres I absolutely hate (most modern radio R&B, reggae, big parts of country and western) but that doesn't mean there isn't extremely well done C&W or reggae, I may just not appreciate it. I personally feel after years of listening experience that for the genres I like well (mainly classical from Baroque to Romantic) and Jazz I have built a certain judgment on what constitutes "quality". Listening to my local classical radio station in my car, they often play the so called "Kleinen Meister", i.e. less-known composers, probably with the objective of broadening the listeners horizon. So I'd be driving in my car and listening to something that e.g. sounds very much like a Mozart symphony. But then I notice, something is wrong, the chord changes are just a bit too simple, the melody progression lacks variety, or whatever it is. It is just not very good, and almost certainly not Mozart. And sure enough, the announcer says "by François-Joseph Gossec" or " by Franz Krommer" for example. If you'd force me to say why Gossec and Krommer todayvare pretty much forgotten while Mozart is a household name, I'd really have trouble pointing out the individual technical elements that constitute that judgment. Check out my blog at musicophilesblog.com - From Keith Jarrett to Johannes Brahms Link to comment
esldude Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Whether the question was serious or not, it is a very interesting question. Like with all art, "good" or "bad" doens't have any objective measures. Why is a Picasso good and your grandfather's oil landscape painting bad? You certainly have to differentiate between "I like this music" and the quality. There are certain genres I absolutely hate (most modern radio R&B, reggae, big parts of country and western) but that doesn't mean there isn't extremely well done C&W or reggae, I may just not appreciate it. I personally feel after years of listening experience that for the genres I like well (mainly classical from Baroque to Romantic) and Jazz I have built a certain judgment on what constitutes "quality". Listening to my local classical radio station in my car, they often play the so called "Kleinen Meister", i.e. less-known composers, probably with the objective of broadening the listeners horizon. So I'd be driving in my car and listening to something that e.g. sounds very much like a Mozart symphony. But then I notice, something is wrong, the chord changes are just a bit too simple, the melody progression lacks variety, or whatever it is. It is just not very good, and almost certainly not Mozart. And sure enough, the announcer says "by François-Joseph Gossec" or " by Franz Krommer" for example. If you'd force me to say why Gossec and Krommer todayvare pretty much forgotten while Mozart is a household name, I'd really have trouble pointing out the individual technical elements that constitute that judgment. If you didn't read the article I linked in my post above, it goes very well with what you are describing. You learn the conventions of a genre of music (not necessarily consciously) even through simple repeated exposure. Some artists are much better at making something interesting and enjoyable within those conventions than other artists. That is something you experienced in your radio listening. And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. Link to comment
Musicophile Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 If you didn't read the article I linked in my post above, it goes very well with what you are describing. You learn the conventions of a genre of music (not necessarily consciously) even through simple repeated exposure. Some artists are much better at making something interesting and enjoyable within those conventions than other artists. That is something you experienced in your radio listening. Actually I hadn't clicked on the link yet. Nice article indeed. Doesn't get very far in terms of describing what makes some art better than others, except for the idea of breaking of conventions, which I fully adhere to. In any case, I like this quote, could be a good leitmotif for all the objectivist/subjectivist discussions elsewhere. Just replace "Art" by $2000 USB cable or whatever. "yes, some art is better than other art in the sense that some art can produce intensified experiences of beauty for educated audiences" Check out my blog at musicophilesblog.com - From Keith Jarrett to Johannes Brahms Link to comment
rodrigaj Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Is _________ better than ___________? Try answering this question from this cheat sheet: everynoise "The function of music is to release us from the tyranny of conscious thought", Sir Thomas Beecham. Link to comment
Musicophile Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Is _________ better than ___________? Try answering this question from this cheat sheet: everynoise That's easy. Riot Grrl is SOOOO much better than Nintendocore. And don't get me started on Neo Honky Tonk vs. Polish Reggae. Check out my blog at musicophilesblog.com - From Keith Jarrett to Johannes Brahms Link to comment
rodrigaj Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 That's easy. Riot Grrl is SOOOO much better than Nintendocore. And don't get me started on Neo Honky Tonk vs. Polish Reggae. You don't know music, Screamocore is the best! "The function of music is to release us from the tyranny of conscious thought", Sir Thomas Beecham. Link to comment
wakibaki Posted March 3, 2015 Author Share Posted March 3, 2015 Years ago a young guy asked me to teach him to play the guitar. He was the least promising student I had ever met. Many times he asked me. Many times I said no. Eventually he said, 'a guy like you could learn a lot from teaching an idiot like me', and I caved. We were sitting around one night, tinkering with the guitars, when he advanced his thesis. Basically it was that he could play something, and I could play something, but that there was no external standard against which to judge them. Essentially, one sound is as good as another, so what he played was of equal quality to what I played. What you have to understand is that he was absolutely, dead serious. I really didn't know what to say, so I reached over and burned him with my cigarette. I wish I could say it worked, but he never really learned to play worth a damm. He's now probably the best networking programmer I know, and a good friend. So the question is serious, but tongue-in-cheek too, because I think that to attempt to describe a hierarchy of genres is really to open a can of worms, unlike some of the music teachers I knew half-a-century ago, who would have said quite unequivocally that anything but Classical was trash. I want people to think about and identify what makes one performance better than another and think about how much, or how little, these qualities depend on good reproduction to make themselves felt. Mike zerO Romeo Oscar November http://wakibaki.com Link to comment
semente Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 I think "classical" music uses more complex and expressive language and structures which can potentiatly trigger emotions that are spiritually and intelectually more elevated. The same happens with literature, painting and the other learned arts when compared their popular counterparts. "Classical" music is not exclusive to the Western (European) civilization and can be found in most civilizations from China to Iran, from India to Europe, where it distinguishes itself from the simpler traditional/popular songs and melodies which exist for entertainment purposes. But across the times there have been plenty of times when "classical" composers visited popular music motifs for inspiration and the inverse happened with popular music as well (i.e. prog rock, rock operas). "Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira de Pascoaes HQPlayer Desktop / Mac mini → Intona 7054 → RME ADI-2 DAC FS (DSD256) Link to comment
wakibaki Posted March 3, 2015 Author Share Posted March 3, 2015 I think "classical" music uses more complex and expressive language and structures which can potentiatly trigger emotions that are spiritually and intelectually more elevated. So, leaving aside considerations of interpretation, I can get the same stimulus from reading the score as I can from listening to a recording, given that my musical sensibility is sufficiently developed that I can hear the piece in my inner ear? Mike zerO Romeo Oscar November http://wakibaki.com Link to comment
bluesman Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Definitely! Polka, polka, polka...... Link to comment
kumakuma Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Definitely! Polka, polka, polka...... Polka with a drum kit and electric guitars. No thanks! Sometimes it's like someone took a knife, baby Edgy and dull and cut a six inch valley Through the middle of my skull Link to comment
bluesman Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 So, leaving aside considerations of interpretation, I can get the same stimulus from reading the score as I can from listening to a recording, given that my musical sensibility is sufficiently developed that I can hear the piece in my inner ear? That's how Beethoven heard his 9th, although the brain streamer is clearly not in the cochlea. This work by Berger et al is really interesting - here's the meat: "neuronal signals made by imagined stimuli can integrate with signals generated by real stimuli of a different sensory modality to make robust multi sensory percepts.....we found that what we imagine hearing can change what we actually see, and what we imagine seeing can change what we actually hear" Link to comment
bluesman Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Polka with a drum kit and electric guitars. No thanks! It can always be worse.......... Link to comment
semente Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 So, leaving aside considerations of interpretation, I can get the same stimulus from reading the score as I can from listening to a recording, given that my musical sensibility is sufficiently developed that I can hear the piece in my inner ear? That is not impossible, I guess. I remember reading that in his later years, after giving up photography, Cartier-Bresson would still get a kick out of catching the decisive moment with his mind... "Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira de Pascoaes HQPlayer Desktop / Mac mini → Intona 7054 → RME ADI-2 DAC FS (DSD256) Link to comment
kumakuma Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 It can always be worse.......... +1 Sometimes it's like someone took a knife, baby Edgy and dull and cut a six inch valley Through the middle of my skull Link to comment
mayhem13 Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 I think "classical" music uses more complex and expressive language and structures which can potentiatly trigger emotions that are spiritually and intelectually more elevated.The same happens with literature, painting and the other learned arts when compared their popular counterparts. "Classical" music is not exclusive to the Western (European) civilization and can be found in most civilizations from China to Iran, from India to Europe, where it distinguishes itself from the simpler traditional/popular songs and melodies which exist for entertainment purposes. But across the times there have been plenty of times when "classical" composers visited popular music motifs for inspiration and the inverse happened with popular music as well (i.e. prog rock, rock operas). Wow....you took the bait, hook line and sinker! Intellectually more elevated, distinguished, etc............. Link to comment
burnspbesq Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Is some music better than other music? If no, then why bother with multiple takes in the studio? If yes, then is Rock & Roll better than Country & Western? The brilliant music I like is obviously better than the junk you like. Office: MacBook Pro - Audirvana Plus - Resonessence Concero - Cavailli Liquid Carbon - Sennheiser HD 800. Travel/Portable: iPhone 7 or iPad Pro - AudioQuest Dragonfly Red - Audeze SINE or Noble Savant Link to comment
bluesman Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 The brilliant music I like is obviously better than the junk you like. But classic albums by Brilliant Junk...........priceless! Link to comment
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