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SACD Player to replace Oppo105?


Norton

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Why does one have to be BETTER? Isn't the goal to make it sound natural or pleasing to you? Isn't it possible to have and enjoy good vinyl as much as good digital be it RBCD, high res PCM, or DSD? I personally have good and bad recordings in all those formats. It's not a matter of which is BEST, it's a matter of which one sounds better for that particular recording.

 

Back to the OP, I heard the Modwright Oppo against a regular Oppo at an audio show. I could hear a difference and I preferred the sound of the Modwright - and I'm an Oppo owner.

Analog: Koetsu Rosewood > VPI Aries 3 w/SDS > EAR 834P > EAR 834L: Audiodesk cleaner

Digital Fun: DAS > CAPS v3 w/LPS (JRMC) SOtM USB > Lynx Hilo > EAR 834L

Digital Serious: DAS > CAPS v3 w/LPS (HQPlayer) Ethernet > SMS-100 NAA > Lampi DSD L4 G5 > EAR 834L

Digital Disc: Oppo BDP 95 > EAR 834L

Output: EAR 834L > Xilica XP4080 DSP > Odessey Stratos Mono Extreme > Legacy Aeris

Phones: EAR 834L > Little Dot Mk ii > Senheiser HD 800

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I pretty much agree with everything Allan said and disagree with Alex, sorry.

 

Unless you are a dyed in the wool tube fanatic, it looks bloody awful, and there is no way it is going to do anything but degrade S/N compared with a comparable quality SS modification. It will almost invariably add a degree of colouration though, which some with lesser systems may sound pleasing.

 

Alex this is the first time I have to disagree with you. I not only love tubes but to me better tubed equipment sounds more like unamplified live music than any solid state equipment I have ever heard and they are no more colored than solid state equipment IMHO. The highest praise I have read in reviews of the finest sounding solid state equipment is they sound tube-like.

 

I don't like SACD that much compared with well recorded RB CD, and I don't have enough SACDs to make it worth my while going there.

 

In my experience well recorded and mastered SACDs and DSD downloads offer the most realism I have yet heard in a digital format. However I respect your contrary opinion, sounds like you bought poor sounding SACDs, poor recordings is a curse of all formats. Did you buy any audiophile SACDs?

 

It is pointless arguing with anybody who prefers valves. Just as it is with Vinyl lovers.

 

Damn, you don’t like LPs either?! If it wasn’t for the care and maintenance LPs I would never have gotten into digital. To my ears the realism and beautiful sound of audiophile LPs and 15 IPS reel to reel tapes are about equaled by 5.6MHz DSD.

 

The specs when you use valves WILL be degraded in the S/N area especially, compared with a well reworked SS stage, in which case the S/N etc. will be better.

 

If the tubes used are dual, then there is also likely to be some kind of mismatch in gain between halves , especially when it comes time to replace them. With 24/192 , you NEED the best possible S/N otherwise there is no point to it!

 

That is why one buys matched pairs of tubes, see www.thetubestore.com - Power Tube Matching.

 

The main advantage of more bits is not in the extremes of the dynamic range or greater S/N ratio, but more discrete levels within the dynamic range, called micro-dynamics. For example 16-bit audio has 65,536 levels while 24-bit audio has 16,777,216 levels or 256 times as many levels. 24-bit only has 50% more dynamic range, the rest of the increased levels are used within the dynamic range. That is not what is important to me as most music doesn’t exceed the dynamic range of 16-bit, what is important is considerable more levels within the dynamic range, thus the impact and fading is much improved, thus more real sounding. Analog and tubes are perhaps the best for micro-dynamics.

 

…SACD well done will blow the pants off RB. OTOH, poorly done, it's not worth it. But that's true of virtually anything to do with audio. :)

 

I agree completely and will add that SACD and DSD downloads sound better in my system than any PCM no matter how high the resolution, I currently use the Yamaha BD-S677 for SACDs and Teac UD-501 DAC for DSD.

 

But in this case it is easily verified by measurements. You may have up to 20dB improvement in S/N alone with a very well implemented SS stage.

 

Has Dennis turned you into an objectivist? See my comment on S/N ratio above.

 

How many would even realize that the tubes have slowly deteriorated?

 

Everyone knows this, However, transistors also deteriorate over time but slower. Tubes are user replaceable. Preamp tubes last a very long time, however power amp tubes perhaps one to five years depending many factors.

 

…measurements can only tell part of the story of how a piece of equipment sounds. Great S/N ratio specs are no substitute for timbre, dynamics, transparency, etc. Tube gear, sonically, no longer has to suffer from the characteristics you decry any more than solid state gear today has to be cold and un-involving. It's all about the implementation, not the technology itself.

 

I’m in complete agreement, great post!

 

I personally have no devotion to tubes and my current system is all solid state. As I run the the audio output from my television and DVD player through my stereo, a tube preamp or amp would be impractical.

 

Allan why is that unpractical? My television’s sound, Blu-Ray/SACD player, DSD/PCM DAC all run through my tubed preamp.

 

While there is no question that some tube gear has an unwanted coloured "tubey" sound, some of the the best, most expensive high-end preamps and amps employ tubes. I repeat. It's the implementation, not the technology. Maintaining tube gear is a different issue that may or may not be an important factor to an individual in choosing equipment.

 

Agree with this. I would like to add that even modern less expensive tube gear is very accurate, it’s mostly cheap older tube gear that has that colored tubey sound.

 

It could be, but it's far more likely a case of alternatives sounding better than most digital, at least until recently. A good vinyl rig still sounds more natural than most RB digital. Good transparent electronics are just going to accurately reproduce what they are fed from the source…

 

Agree again, great post!

 

Finally if Norton decides on the Modwright mod for his Oppo his tubes will likely last longer than the transport, and if not they are easy to replace, see photo.

 

105frntstocksmallaward2.jpg

 

Oppo BDP-105 Tube Mods

I have dementia. I save all my posts in a text file I call Forums.  I do a search in that file to find out what I said or did in the past.

 

I still love music.

 

Teresa

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Back to the OP, I heard the Modwright Oppo against a regular Oppo at an audio show. I could hear a difference and I preferred the sound of the Modwright - and I'm an Oppo owner.

 

Thanks for all the feedback, albeit some of it in an unexpected direction...I had thought about the Modwright mods but with 2 way shipping and various taxes and duties is probably a very expensive option for those of us in the UK, and for the £ involved I'd want to be stunned, not just hear a djfference. What stands out so far is that even with a budget 3x the price of the std Oppo and no need of video and multi channel features, there doesn't seem so far to be an obvious recommendation as to a superior SACD player (other than a modified...Oppo)?

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Thanks also for the recommendations for a DAC, but that would only suit my purpose (SACD replay) if it could decode the DSD stream from a SACD. As I understand it the Oppo can output the SACD layer ( as DSD?) over HDMI, but the only quality DAC to cope with this is the forthcoming Bryston? I also thought HDMI was not thought much good as an audio interface?

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Thanks also for the recommendations for a DAC, but that would only suit my purpose (SACD replay) if it could decode the DSD stream from a SACD. As I understand it the Oppo can output the SACD layer ( as DSD?) over HDMI, but the only quality DAC to cope with this is the forthcoming Bryston? I also thought HDMI was not thought much good as an audio interface?

 

Marantz SA-14S1 SACD Player & DSD DAC Review - AVRev.com

 

Well in your budget, really good product.

 


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You have people in this forum using low cost class D amps and swearing that transcoded DSD is better than RB :)

Seriously Allan, with a well matched system where every component matters not only the DAC, RB gives you a better result than vinyl.

 

Seriously, alfe, you also have people in this forum insisting that differences in cables can't be heard and that all bit perfect digital music players sound the same. :)

 

Let's just agree to disagree on vinyl vs RB digital. I am not saying that digital can't sound as good as vinyl, only that vinyl sounds better than most digital gear on RB.

"Relax, it's only hi-fi. There's never been a hi-fi emergency." - Roy Hall

"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." - William Bruce Cameron

 

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Unless you are a dyed in the wool tube fanatic, it looks bloody awful, and there is no way it is going to do anything but degrade S/N compared with a comparable quality SS modification. It will almost invariably add a degree of colouration though, which some with lesser systems may sound pleasing.

 

So basically you have never listened to this and don't have a clue...

Regards,

Dave

 

Audio system

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Since Japan is quite a stronghold of SACD, logically look there for SACD players :)

 

 

Preference should be given to the players that have mechanisms a grade above the OEM offerings, we can do better than a pressed steel 'turntable' that is the same standard as most computer transports.

 

 

To find out what sells (well), I look at the PhileWeb equipment rankings to find out, it's updated weekly. Out of the top 10 SACD players listed, four are from Denon.

 

 

Marantz' sister company Denon have a few SACD players worth looking at DSD-1650RE, DCD-1500RE, DCD-2020AE, all feature solid transports, and flexibility with external connections to accept USB, including DSD. Sometimes the model numbers are for specific regions and have different IDs, but the mechanics and essentials are the same. Frequent model changes are a bit of a worry, maybe it's their marketing that makes this happen.

 

 

Yamaha CD-S2000, CD-S2100 also with external USB connections, nice solid mechanism, good value for money brand.

 

 

Luxman's D-06u newish release, but just might just be out of your budget, but if you don't want the external DAC connectors, the D-05, D-06 slightly superceded models maybe available for a good price . Superb players, if you are going to go that far, then Accuphase DP-550 should be on the shopping list.

 

 

Amazon sell the obsolete but still held in high esteem, the Sony SACD players, but count on reliability niggles, since the players sold now have been in storage for quite some time, and have the problems of when they were sold... Still you might be lucky and score a gem.

 

 

As far as playing DSD via HDMI, I wouldn't make this a priority, HDMI is not the greatest medium for audio, since it does not have a master clock to sync pulses from the player to the receiver. The exception is a closed shoppe approach from Pioneer and Sony where clocking over HDMI does occur with their own systems, and incompatible with each other. It means to buy a receiver capable of that on top of the player, whereas the money could be spent on a better analog out.

AS Profile Equipment List        Say NO to MQA

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Teresa

No, I didnt buy any audiophile SACDs All of the earlier SACD capable players that I have owned appear to have offered DVD-A and SACD play more as an afterthought.

There have been no new popular music SACDs for years, and those that remain fetch exorbitant prices, so for me it is rather pointless upgrading to a player that will do them more justice.

 

Damn, you don’t like LPs either?! If it wasn’t for the care and maintenance LPs I would never have gotten into digital.

 

Likewise. I loved my half speed mastered LPs, but you can't build a collection around a few releases like that.

Another reason I got out was the heavy compression being introduced in order to cram more on one side. A horrendous example of that was a Bette Midler LP.

 

Unlike many C.A. members I get to hear many different pieces of gear at different friends' places at our regular listening sessions. Some of this gear is worth up to $50K each, with speakers up to $30K or more. In fact, we have another session on 20th March where David L (Audiophile neuroscience) and several other friends will be present.

 

Do you also get to hear many different systems at different friends' houses ?

Perhaps you need to hear many more high quality SS amps and preamps at different locations before rushing to judgement with your belief that good tube gear sounds better before making judgement ?

Can your tube gear give you good surround from DTV with only stereo speakers on well recorded TV productions, or from the BluRay "Avatar" or well recorded tracks such as "Another One Bites the Dust", or "Hotel California" from the DVD-A without any special decoder?

 

BTW, I completely agree with what Alfe said previously,. It's the total of the gear, not just one or 2 items.

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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Since Japan is quite a stronghold of SACD, logically look there for SACD players :)

 

 

Preference should be given to the players that have mechanisms a grade above the OEM offerings, we can do better than a pressed steel 'turntable' that is the same standard as most computer transports.

 

 

To find out what sells (well), I look at the PhileWeb equipment rankings to find out, it's updated weekly. Out of the top 10 SACD players listed, four are from Denon.

 

 

Marantz' sister company Denon have a few SACD players worth looking at DSD-1650RE, DCD-1500RE, DCD-2020AE, all feature solid transports, and flexibility with external connections to accept USB, including DSD. Sometimes the model numbers are for specific regions and have different IDs, but the mechanics and essentials are the same. Frequent model changes are a bit of a worry, maybe it's their marketing that makes this happen.

 

 

Yamaha CD-S2000, CD-S2100 also with external USB connections, nice solid mechanism, good value for money brand.

 

 

Luxman's D-06u newish release, but just might just be out of your budget, but if you don't want the external DAC connectors, the D-05, D-06 slightly superceded models maybe available for a good price . Superb players, if you are going to go that far, then Accuphase DP-550 should be on the shopping list.

 

 

Amazon sell the obsolete but still held in high esteem, the Sony SACD players, but count on reliability niggles, since the players sold now have been in storage for quite some time, and have the problems of when they were sold... Still you might be lucky and score a gem.

 

 

As far as playing DSD via HDMI, I wouldn't make this a priority, HDMI is not the greatest medium for audio, since it does not have a master clock to sync pulses from the player to the receiver. The exception is a closed shoppe approach from Pioneer and Sony where clocking over HDMI does occur with their own systems, and incompatible with each other. It means to buy a receiver capable of that on top of the player, whereas the money could be spent on a better analog out.

 

Thanks for all the information, plenty to think about here. I'm by no means unhappy with the Oppo, so only looking to change if it brings a very substantial upgrade. Be good to hear from anyone who's gone from an Oppo to, say a Luxman or Esoteric for example.

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Thanks for all the information, plenty to think about here. I'm by no means unhappy with the Oppo, so only looking to change if it brings a very substantial upgrade. Be good to hear from anyone who's gone from an Oppo to, say a Luxman or Esoteric for example.

 

Is a Luxman DA-06 for example, fully immune to the vagaries of flawed USB Audio, where you often need to spend a great deal more for an aftermarket USB cable to extract a higher quality performance ? In other words do all suitable USB cables meeting the relevant specifications sound the same ? Do you need something like iFi USB PSU to further improve it's SQ ? Perhaps Allan can enlighten us as to whether he needed to use a special USB cable, or whether a normal USB 2.0 printer cable gave exactly the same results ?

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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Seriously, alfe, you also have people in this forum insisting that differences in cables can't be heard and that all bit perfect digital music players sound the same. :)

 

Let's just agree to disagree on vinyl vs RB digital. I am not saying that digital can't sound as good as vinyl, only that vinyl sounds better than most digital gear on RB.

 

Bit perfect before or after up sampling?:)

If you plan to visit Paris in the future let me know this way we can agree to disagree after a listening session:)

 


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Thanks for all the information, plenty to think about here. I'm by no means unhappy with the Oppo, so only looking to change if it brings a very substantial upgrade. Be good to hear from anyone who's gone from an Oppo to, say a Luxman or Esoteric for example.

 

I have an Oppo BD-95 and bought an Accuphase DP-720 SACD. The differences are vast, so is the price.

AS Profile Equipment List        Say NO to MQA

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Bit perfect before or after up sampling?:)

If you plan to visit Paris in the future let me know this way we can agree to disagree after a listening session:)

 

If I make it to Paris, you're on. But only if the listening session is after a meal at a good French restaurant with a bottle of good vin rouge. :)

"Relax, it's only hi-fi. There's never been a hi-fi emergency." - Roy Hall

"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." - William Bruce Cameron

 

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Allan

Still no reply to my question as to whether the choice of USB cables matters with the Luxman DA-06

 

Alex

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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Allan

Still no reply to my question as to whether the choice of USB cables matters with the Luxman DA-06

 

Alex

 

Alex, please don't take this personally, but that was intentional. I am becoming increasingly unhappy with the confrontational tone of the forum and chose not to continue this "discussion" by responding. To the extent that I may have contributed to that tone, I accept full responsibility. However, I hope to minimize my participation in such threads in the future.

 

It hasn't taken me long to rediscover that spending more time listening to and playing music is, for me, a far more pleasurable and productive activity. Having said that, I extend to you every best wish for a speedy recovery from your surgery.

"Relax, it's only hi-fi. There's never been a hi-fi emergency." - Roy Hall

"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." - William Bruce Cameron

 

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Several years ago I came close to buying a dedicated SACD player from Sony. I ended up holding off and then SACD ripping came to my rescue. I'm glad I didn't invest in any SACD player.

 

In comparing the sound of DSD files ripped & extracted from SACDs to that of the same SACDs playing on a dedicated SACD player, I find the former to be superior. SACD disc playback gave the distinct impression of overly smooth sound, lack of treble detail and character, though midrange & bass are very good. For example, violin solos and violin I & II sections don't sound very realistic off the SACD, but playing the extracted DSD files showed distinct improvement.

 

One theory I have is that the SACD player has to perform bitstream decryption and de-compression just to get back the uncompressed DSD bitstream, so the player is like a computer performing the data transformation, which creates much electrical noise in the digital section that can contaminate the DAC and analog output sections thus degrading the sound. Playing DSD files (.DSF or .DFF formats) means the decryption and de-compression are bypassed, since they have already been done (via SACD ripping and extraction respectively). Any jitter introduced by the bitstream FIFO buffer in the SACD player (as part of any optical disc transport design) is also not applicable to DSD file playback.

 

When playing .DSF (DSD64 & DSD128) files through my Auralic Vega DAC, I even get a choice of 2 filter modes to tweak the sound a bit.

 

The main downside of playing ripped SACD files is their relatively large size compared to Redbook CD PCM WAV or FLAC files, but computer storage keeps getting cheaper. I greatly enjoy being able to select an SACD the same way as a CD on my iPad to play through my system, and have stopped playing physical discs a few years ago.

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I have an Oppo BDP-95 and added a Lynx Hilo DAC to my system, there was a noticeable difference. Then I added a Lampizator DAC, once again a noticable difference. It feels like the DAC is analogous to a phono cartridge, it has a distinct sound. This is probably due to the DAC converter and the analog filters.

 

Bottom line, my Oppo was getting a little long in the tooth (old) and a newer DAC made a difference. The BDP-105 is still in their current lineup so it probably sounds better than my 95. What I am trying to get to is go listen to some/any alternatives (whether you care about that DAC or not) just to see if you can hear any differences - remember to bring your BDP-105 along with you so you can put it in the chain for a direct comparison.

Analog: Koetsu Rosewood > VPI Aries 3 w/SDS > EAR 834P > EAR 834L: Audiodesk cleaner

Digital Fun: DAS > CAPS v3 w/LPS (JRMC) SOtM USB > Lynx Hilo > EAR 834L

Digital Serious: DAS > CAPS v3 w/LPS (HQPlayer) Ethernet > SMS-100 NAA > Lampi DSD L4 G5 > EAR 834L

Digital Disc: Oppo BDP 95 > EAR 834L

Output: EAR 834L > Xilica XP4080 DSP > Odessey Stratos Mono Extreme > Legacy Aeris

Phones: EAR 834L > Little Dot Mk ii > Senheiser HD 800

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What would you recommend as a 2Channel SACD player that would be a significant upgrade on my Oppo105? max budget $5k.

 

I know I could get my SACDS ripped, but I still like the idea of a dedicated player.

 

My next blue ray player will be this https://www.oppodigital.com/blu-ray-bdp-105/blu-ray-BDP-105D-Overview.aspx (maybe like your own) for one reason: beyond to need a dedicated blue ray player, the principal reason is because this oppo has ess sabre9018 DAC to play DSD64 and DSD128 files via USB stereo and multichannel only at $1299.

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Oops, sorry... I'm not a Oppo promoter, but I've looking for a equipment like that, and I thought this comment could help...

 

You have nothing to apologize for. You simply stated something you were considering, which was relevant to this thread. Regardless of what certain others might say, the stock Oppo 105 is an excellent universal player, especially for the price. And there is review after review by significant audio reviewers to document it.

 

Granted, the Modwright upgrade mentioned previously takes it to another entire dimension. At a cost, of course.

 

JC

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Sorry mate, jumped the gun. Been burnt by the Oppo marketing machine hence the quick trigger.

 

These are some DACs with DSD multichannel outputs: EMM Labs DAC 8 Mk IV $1999, exaSound Audio Design e28 8 ch DAC $3299,Mytek Digital 8x192 AD/DAC $3895, Playback Designs MPD-5 DAC $13000, Primare BD32 Mk II universal player/DAC $5355, Prism Audio ADA-8XR DSD AD/DAC $11935...

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