wisnon Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Actually there are only 9 listed as compatible in the Sonore website and I THINK 2 ARE UNCONFIRMED 100%. The PSA DStream and the W4S are confirmed. However, if his Dac is boutique, like Lampizator or ModWright, there is a possibility of adding this HDMI terminal and getting it to work. The big guys wont retrofit, so forget it. Additionally, these brands are higher end units, so the owners may be more inclined to have a relatively expansive audiophile transport. I upload a picture of the back of the Elyse Dac showing tons of space to do the mod. LVDS i2s COMPATIBILITY PS Audio - PerfectWave DAC MKI/MKII PS Audio - DirectStream DAC Rockna - Wavequest (pending verification) Sonore - Signature Series DAC K&K Audio - RAKK DAC Wadia - Intuition (pending verification) Wyred4Sound - DAC-2/DAC-2 DSDse Link to comment
firedog Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 I remember that he has the Modwright Elyse, if I'm correct, then maybe he can have it retrofitted for I2S. Main listening (small home office): Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments. Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three . Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup. Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. All absolute statements about audio are false Link to comment
ted_b Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Yes, I've been trying to help TubeLover. I have a call into Dan (a longtime good friend). "We're all bozos on this bus"....F.T. My JRIver tutorial videos Actual JRIver tutorial MP4 video links My eleven yr old SACD Ripping Guide for PS3 (needs updating but still works) US Technical Advisor, NativeDSD.com Link to comment
tranz Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Thanks for the list. Sadly small. This is a blatant gap in the market. For the consumer there should be ONE industry standard ideally implemented in all DACs, receivers, cdplayers and streamers. Not sure I like the HDMI cable as those plugs suck and are fragile. But rather that than the current situation. Now, this I2S format might be another flavour of the month, but logically to my neophyte mind it seems the right way to go. If I2S is what DACs require natively, then why go through all the unnecessary translations to USB, SPDIF, etc. Link to comment
ted_b Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 I have the attention of at least one high end DAC manufacturer, and maybe more. It's a competitive market and this seems to be a fairly low risk add-on, being that it is somewhat standardized now. Thanks to folks like Jesus R, Paul McGowan, EJ Sarmento and others. "We're all bozos on this bus"....F.T. My JRIver tutorial videos Actual JRIver tutorial MP4 video links My eleven yr old SACD Ripping Guide for PS3 (needs updating but still works) US Technical Advisor, NativeDSD.com Link to comment
rodrigaj Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 One of the reasons why I was so glad to see the Tidal / Bubbleupnp matchup was because of the I2S connection to my W4S DAC. I2S really does make a huge difference. "The function of music is to release us from the tyranny of conscious thought", Sir Thomas Beecham. Link to comment
wdw Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 ..... Someone should put the SSR up against the Berkeley Alpha USB if you want to hear just how good a job John did with this piece......a great S/PDIF input is even harder to do than an S/PDIF output.... Not disputing your ascertion but wonder why Berkeley would, in this light, continue using SPDIF as their preferred digital input? wdw Link to comment
tranz Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Not disputing your ascertion but wonder why Berkeley would, in this light, continue using SPDIF as their preferred digital input?wdw Likely because there is no current industry standard and they have already have the technical know-how to make SPDIF as good as it gets. But it would be interesting to hear from them if they even pursued it. Link to comment
tranz Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 I have the attention of at least one high end DAC manufacturer, and maybe more. It's a competitive market and this seems to be a fairly low risk add-on, being that it is somewhat standardized now. Thanks to folks like Jesus R, Paul McGowan, EJ Sarmento and others. Sweet! Hopefully the momentum continues to critical mass. Link to comment
One and a half Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Sweet! Hopefully the momentum continues to critical mass. I hope so too, but the road is long. If there is a new interface that a few can adopt/adapt, when it doesn't have a Lemo connector, I'm not interested. HDMI is a rubbish connector, if anything, an LVDS signal can use an RJ45. I suppose the best we can do for now is use Ethernet to an LVDS conversion, with the cabling distance to be no longer than 5m, any increases, allow jitter to escalate. So we are no better off than with S/PDIF are we? Like CD, there's still a lot more that S/PDIF can reveal with a lot more work admittedly, but the interfaces are already there and compatible with existing components. DSD is another issue entirely, so I am only talking about PCM to 192fs. It just seems that although LVDS has its merits, it's a convoluted way to get to the DAC since we only have Ethernet as a (long distance) transmission medium from the music/file source. AS Profile Equipment List Say NO to MQA Link to comment
ted_b Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Good luck with shortening the road by now introducing a new unused connector and set of cabling to a "standard" that has at least some momentum. In what way has the LVDS/HDMi setup concluded to: "we are no better off than SPDIF"? Some LVDS uses RJ45 but it was not adopted much. Traction is about adopting a reasonable plan and going forward, not creating a perfect plan and going nowhere. In what way is the HDMI pin config not reasonable? The sq is sure reasonable. And for PCM I'm pretty sure you mean 4fs (4x48 is 192) not 192fs. "We're all bozos on this bus"....F.T. My JRIver tutorial videos Actual JRIver tutorial MP4 video links My eleven yr old SACD Ripping Guide for PS3 (needs updating but still works) US Technical Advisor, NativeDSD.com Link to comment
Audio_ELF Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Its not just any i2s, its i2s hdmi with the PS Audio pinout standard. Is that anything like an M&S cheesecake? Eloise With appologies to everyone not British and therefore not party to Marks and Spencer's advertising! Eloise --- ...in my opinion / experience... While I agree "Everything may matter" working out what actually affects the sound is a trickier thing. And I agree "Trust your ears" but equally don't allow them to fool you - trust them with a bit of skepticism. keep your mind open... But mind your brain doesn't fall out. Link to comment
wisnon Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 Yes, I've been trying to help TubeLover. I have a call into Dan (a longtime good friend). Please do. I have been trying to help Jesus with ideas, as I think he made a fine product that deserves good success. I am trying to impress upon him that market access should be a priority and he needs MORE Dacs to become compatible. His best bet is partnering up with the higher end boutique guys like Modwright and Lampizator and for that he needs a few demo units in circulation. Please try on your end as well Ted. Link to comment
wisnon Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 Is that anything like an M&S cheesecake? Eloise With appologies to everyone not British and therefore not party to Marks and Spencer's advertising! Over my head too Eloise, even though I do have Sky TV! LoL Link to comment
One and a half Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 Good luck with shortening the road by now introducing a new unused connector and set of cabling to a "standard" that has at least some momentum. In what way has the LVDS/HDMi setup concluded to: "we are no better off than SPDIF"? Some LVDS uses RJ45 but it was not adopted much. Traction is about adopting a reasonable plan and going forward, not creating a perfect plan and going nowhere. In what way is the HDMI pin config not reasonable? The sq is sure reasonable. And for PCM I'm pretty sure you mean 4fs (4x48 is 192) not 192fs. "We are no better off than SPDIF" was mainly due to the cable length restrictions on LVDS as well as S/PDIF (other than in AES3). I don't see the advantage then of using an LVDS system to transport I2S for long distances. The Ravenna protocol, for example has no such distance restriction, low latency, open adoption, PTP timing, routable(!) so why not use that system? Why not use it for the Aries or the Sonore Signature Rendu? The HDMI connector is the crappiest connector for anything under the sun. The pins proximity to each promotes wicking from one to the other pin with a catalyst caused by moisture content in air, causing cross talk, shorts and lousy signalling contacts. There is no locking mechanism to prevent the connector from falling out and the insertion is just held in by friction, and a very weak one at that. LVDS works with five cores, it's serial differential or parallel data, no need for multiple pins as for HDMI unless you want to swallow all the spares as grounds. The Lemo connector is not an unknown, unless you talk for audio of course. Thank goodness pro circles still use XLR, it might be ancient (since the 1930's) but it works. Yes, by 192 I meant 192 file sample rate. AS Profile Equipment List Say NO to MQA Link to comment
tranz Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 ...The HDMI connector is the crappiest connector for anything under the sun. The pins proximity to each promotes wicking from one to the other pin with a catalyst caused by moisture content in air, causing cross talk, shorts and lousy signalling contacts. There is no locking mechanism to prevent the connector from falling out and the insertion is just held in by friction, and a very weak one at that... Thank goodness pro circles still use XLR... Anything that locks in place I like: XLR, RJ45, Neutrik, BNC. Which does not leave much room for LVDS. MSB has one with RJ45 but I do not think it is LVDS compatible. Agree on HDMI, having had quite a few break even under its own cable weight, or just suddenly stop working. Link to comment
craighartley Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 Leema Libra has an i2s input on RJ45. Link to comment
tranz Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 Leema Libra has an i2s input on RJ45. Now that is handy "...including two I2S inputs via RJ45 connectors. Featuring fully programmable pin allocation of one of these inputs in software, any high end source with an I2S interface can easily be accommodated." Link to comment
vortecjr Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 "We are no better off than SPDIF" was mainly due to the cable length restrictions on LVDS as well as S/PDIF (other than in AES3). I don't see the advantage then of using an LVDS system to transport I2S for long distances. The Ravenna protocol, for example has no such distance restriction, low latency, open adoption, PTP timing, routable(!) so why not use that system? Why not use it for the Aries or the Sonore Signature Rendu? The HDMI connector is the crappiest connector for anything under the sun. The pins proximity to each promotes wicking from one to the other pin with a catalyst caused by moisture content in air, causing cross talk, shorts and lousy signalling contacts. There is no locking mechanism to prevent the connector from falling out and the insertion is just held in by friction, and a very weak one at that. LVDS works with five cores, it's serial differential or parallel data, no need for multiple pins as for HDMI unless you want to swallow all the spares as grounds. The Lemo connector is not an unknown, unless you talk for audio of course. Thank goodness pro circles still use XLR, it might be ancient (since the 1930's) but it works. Yes, by 192 I meant 192 file sample rate. You are entitled to your opinion, but I think you are being overly critical. I'm not having any issues with my HDMI cable (I use the Blue Jean cable that comes with the SSR) and I'm not having any issues with the HDMI connector. Most importantly, I have included the HDMI LVDS i2s output on several products and I'm not receiving any complaints from customers. I'm just saying... Jesus R SONORE computer audio | opticalRendu | ultraRendu | microRendu | Signature Rendu SE | endPoint | opticalModule DX | Power Supplies | Link to comment
vortecjr Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 Anything that locks in place I like: XLR, RJ45, Neutrik, BNC. Which does not leave much room for LVDS. MSB has one with RJ45 but I do not think it is LVDS compatible. Agree on HDMI, having had quite a few break even under its own cable weight, or just suddenly stop working. MSB's RJ45 is a mix of LVDS master clock and proprietary signals. So you can count that indefinitely. Jesus R SONORE computer audio | opticalRendu | ultraRendu | microRendu | Signature Rendu SE | endPoint | opticalModule DX | Power Supplies | Link to comment
vortecjr Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 Now that is handy "...including two I2S inputs via RJ45 connectors. Featuring fully programmable pin allocation of one of these inputs in software, any high end source with an I2S interface can easily be accommodated." There is still a potential issue with compatibility. An i2s input can't be reconfigured in software into LVDS i2s unless the input is LVDS i2s in the first place. Jesus R SONORE computer audio | opticalRendu | ultraRendu | microRendu | Signature Rendu SE | endPoint | opticalModule DX | Power Supplies | Link to comment
vortecjr Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 Please do. I have been trying to help Jesus with ideas, as I think he made a fine product that deserves good success.I am trying to impress upon him that market access should be a priority and he needs MORE Dacs to become compatible. His best bet is partnering up with the higher end boutique guys like Modwright and Lampizator and for that he needs a few demo units in circulation. Please try on your end as well Ted. I'm producing a HDMI LVDS i2s receiver board that we plan to offer to DYI users and OEMS. It's in testing phase right now and should be available soon. I have a strong customer base of K&K Audio, W4S and PSA HDMI LVDS i2s owners and the output is there mostly for them because they share the same passion for i2s. I use the HDMI LVDS i2s output into my custom DAC and to some extent the output is included in my products for selfish reasons:) Having said that, the HDMI LVDS i2s output is really a secondary output to the unit. The SPDIF output is the main output on the unit and intended for general compatibility at a very high level. Jesus R SONORE computer audio | opticalRendu | ultraRendu | microRendu | Signature Rendu SE | endPoint | opticalModule DX | Power Supplies | Link to comment
tranz Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 There is still a potential issue with compatibility. An i2s input can't be reconfigured in software into LVDS i2s unless the input is LVDS i2s in the first place. Jesus R Thanks for the input Jesus. So I guess it is helpful because not all LVDS pin outs are the same due to the lack of standard. In the case of the PS Audio and SRS, does the DAC's clock get sent and used via LVDS, and could something like that be changed via software/firmware? Could you please clarify the comment on the MSB RJ45 and counting it indefinitely, I do not understand. Great to hear about the receiver boards! Link to comment
Distinctive Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 One thing that AudioByte can do that I haven't seen from the other I2s vendors is that they can switch polarity on the LVDS. Link to comment
wisnon Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 "We are no better off than SPDIF" was mainly due to the cable length restrictions on LVDS as well as S/PDIF (other than in AES3). I don't see the advantage then of using an LVDS system to transport I2S for long distances. The Ravenna protocol, for example has no such distance restriction, low latency, open adoption, PTP timing, routable(!) so why not use that system? Why not use it for the Aries or the Sonore Signature Rendu? The HDMI connector is the crappiest connector for anything under the sun. The pins proximity to each promotes wicking from one to the other pin with a catalyst caused by moisture content in air, causing cross talk, shorts and lousy signalling contacts. There is no locking mechanism to prevent the connector from falling out and the insertion is just held in by friction, and a very weak one at that. LVDS works with five cores, it's serial differential or parallel data, no need for multiple pins as for HDMI unless you want to swallow all the spares as grounds. The Lemo connector is not an unknown, unless you talk for audio of course. Thank goodness pro circles still use XLR, it might be ancient (since the 1930's) but it works. Yes, by 192 I meant 192 file sample rate. Does Ravenna deal with packetized data crud? Link to comment
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