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The Truth of "Computer Audiophile"


PeterSt

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Psssst...........(whispering)......a tube preamp stage.....ssshhhhhhhhhhh

 

Not a bad idea at all. I used to have a tube amp and loved the warmth/distortion of it, especially on guitar. A bit of an extra sparkle. Then I was dumb enough to upgrade the speakers and it could not handle the load on EDM especially. Now a pre stage might indeed do the trick. Time to save up...

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Well said. It is having your complete library and streaming services at your fingertips that is so convenient. I sold my turntable a while ago because of all the hassle.

 

 

This type of thing is very interesting to me. I look at sources mostly in an "additive" sense - I enjoy playing LPs on my turntable as well as playing files on the computer. (*Mostly* in an additive sense - I now rip CDs rather than playing them with my disc player because of the extra hassle and most of all worse sound.) It's true that in general computer based sound is better than LPs, but for those LPs for which I don't have a digital version, or which have much better mastering than the digital version (this was true of Tommy and Gaucho, for example, until I got better mastered digital versions), I enjoy listening to the LPs very much. Of course it is also likely I am older than tranz and have more LPs.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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I

I don't care how much, or how little, an audiophile spends on their system(s), or what equipment they have, but, in my definition of an 'audiophile', one has to use their ears to hear SQ. Not exclusively, or any percentage, not better or worse, just that it's part of the hobby package. Those that denigrate and ignore their own, and others, hearing are simply NOT audiophiles to me, but some other description. Meter Tupi reader, DBTer, Sound Reinforcement goon, troll, whatever...

 

Typical

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Did you mean Sound Enforcement goon???? :)

 

Yeah, no "Re" at all. :)

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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DSD = Delightful Sounding Digital. :)

 

There is always Decidely Simple Digital. It is simpler.

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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But the flip-side for me is still chasing that non-fatiguing/lack-of-digititus aspect the turntable brought to the sound. Many, luckily!, do not have that issue.

 

Well tranz, I think - or maybe I'm sure - this is one of the hidden aspects of what we tend to call "Computer Audiophile" and where people tend to drop their fine vinyl rig or CDP based system and trade it for the convenience. Next they are bothered by their beautiful small Mini and all the nasty albums, and easily blame the recording for it.

I don't recall such judgment was often in order with LP; it was much more generalized to the system as a whole being not on par (with e.g. your father's).

 

So let us remind us that it seems that this thread could be turned into the phenomenon "Audiophile" alone, while actually it is about Audiophile Systems and then computer based (has to be for this forum). Not that the question really is what such system comprises of, but it makes it relative to all our mutual systems and how we try to talk "quality" as a common denominator with fixed values.

 

What I saw up till now in this thread is that there's at least proof of something like "who cares as long as I enjoy myself". Now, nothing wrong with that, but meanwhile we should care as long as e.g. I use a more expensive system, enjoy that for certain aspects, while I am told that I must be deaf because a 1500 system can do the same..

Get the gist ? we can not communicate like this, especially not when people claim physics properties in the realm of "can't be anyway, and since I also don't perceive differences I will put those properties up for you boy so dig that". And of course I say that this can not be done with the 1500 system compared to the say 20K one.

 

Taking this further, but now to more real merits, when one has the 20K system - carefully selected, and the other has a 25K one also carefully selected, and those two throw arguments to each other of what is and can not be, THEN I would see this as very useful and the DBT's and all can begin.

 

But isn't it clear from this thread that no matter what, people can defend the 1500 (already because it's asked) and that exactly those will not be able - and should not be allowed to tell e.g. me that no differences can be heard in my setup just because the 1500 won't allow it in the first place ?

I am not saying that all do, but those who do are quite persistent. And of course it is for a reason that over 1/3 voted for it.

 

Luckily, what I see so far, there's more consensus about something like "yeah, you're right; I vote for the 1500 while I know it actually can't be done but I am happy as it is anyway".

So mind you, there's less explicit response from those (the 2/3) who voted for the simplified "above 1500", which even includes myself. This in itself could be something like "yeah, right, 20K++ but I am not even sure I can justify it; I could be obsessed". Well, let me tell you, 100% ALL such systems and with way more $$ spent sound like crap to ME. So now what.

 

So on one side it is seems easy to compare 1500 with 20K+ for e.g. me (but others too of course) and claim the impossible, but on the other side it is way more complicated because there's not even a justified way to compare two 20K+ systems. But the difference : *that* can be sorted out because there's fundament to sort it out. If needed of course. But let's say that this is part of the hobby, especially on a forum.

Lush^3-e      Lush^2      Blaxius^2.5      Ethernet^3     HDMI^2     XLR^2

XXHighEnd (developer)

Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer)

Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer)

Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier)

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Hi Peter,

 

It is intriguing because I do not recall this issue of fatiguing/digititus on 'my father's' rig, which happened to be a turntable with simple speakers, and certainly cost a lot less than 1500. For that matter not on my old boombox, tape player, even the old CD player growing up do I remember this. Perhaps this is due to selective memory, glorifying the old days, or lack of hearing damage, but I remember it starting with the first computer audio setup.

 

I have gone to shows where 100K multiples costing systems were on display fed by an unaltered Mac Mini and it made me run out of the room. And other rooms costing a fraction drew me in.

 

So you ask a good question: is it more to do with the system or the person.

 

Unless I completely misunderstood your post ?.

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Hi tranz,

 

That was exactly what I meant;

I didn't write it so explicitly, but for me too it is a given that LP and such are hugely forgiving in this aspect; hard to get wrong. Maybe not the best if all is taken into account, but being annoyed by harsh highs etc. is in another dimension or so.

 

If we take this to digital in general, then I am fairly confident that a similar step exists between a CDP setup and a computer as transport. It is just 10 times more difficult. However, many seem to take that for granted and choose for the convenience first. I will not decide about the justification of that, but if by now "computer playback" has generally degraded because everybody learnt to live with harsh highs etc., then what are we doing.

 

To get everything right in digital (computer as transport) is crazily difficult. Or at least it is my experience it is. Also, the more close to reality it gets, the less it requires to be completely annoyed (this is always a very quick getting used to the better and the same step back whatever you applied annoys right away).

Nothing of this with a "lesser" system with ultimately LP (sorry and take it just as my (audible) view). We could tweak with footers and ground connections and what not, and it always improved. At least that was my thinking. But annoyed ? I don't recall that. Also not from my main playback means back at the time, a Nakamichi Tri-tracer cassette deck (loaned the hell out of me on LPs and recorded them to tape). Last time I tried it was maybe 3 years ago. Undoable. Noise screamed out of the speakers. The change ? back in the days that noise wouldn't show. But I also used a preamp which allowed for all not to be at full gain, now mainly the noise from the deck's whatever stages. And today no preamp can be used because it kills all right away.

So many things have changed ...

 

I still have quite some albums which I can't play because so poor. But with the CDP I could happily.

So poor recordings and think that digital is all OK as I have it now ? I refuse.

Lush^3-e      Lush^2      Blaxius^2.5      Ethernet^3     HDMI^2     XLR^2

XXHighEnd (developer)

Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer)

Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer)

Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier)

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I still have quite some albums which I can't play because so poor. But with the CDP I could happily.

So poor recordings and think that digital is all OK as I have it now ? I refuse.

 

Yes, let's all recall that everything wasn't golden back in those LP days, we still had crap recordings and then there were crap pressings, and that caused listening fatigue. Not that I'll ever give up my analog components.

 

So I still have my Nak, been boxed up for years, I wonder if it's worth digging up and resurrecting.

Analog: Koetsu Rosewood > VPI Aries 3 w/SDS > EAR 834P > EAR 834L: Audiodesk cleaner

Digital Fun: DAS > CAPS v3 w/LPS (JRMC) SOtM USB > Lynx Hilo > EAR 834L

Digital Serious: DAS > CAPS v3 w/LPS (HQPlayer) Ethernet > SMS-100 NAA > Lampi DSD L4 G5 > EAR 834L

Digital Disc: Oppo BDP 95 > EAR 834L

Output: EAR 834L > Xilica XP4080 DSP > Odessey Stratos Mono Extreme > Legacy Aeris

Phones: EAR 834L > Little Dot Mk ii > Senheiser HD 800

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Well tranz, I think - or maybe I'm sure - this is one of the hidden aspects of what we tend to call "Computer Audiophile" and where people tend to drop their fine vinyl rig or CDP based system and trade it for the convenience. Next they are bothered by their beautiful small Mini and all the nasty albums, and easily blame the recording for it.

I don't recall such judgment was often in order with LP; it was much more generalized to the system as a whole being not on par (with e.g. your father's).

 

So let us remind us that it seems that this thread could be turned into the phenomenon "Audiophile" alone, while actually it is about Audiophile Systems and then computer based (has to be for this forum). Not that the question really is what such system comprises of, but it makes it relative to all our mutual systems and how we try to talk "quality" as a common denominator with fixed values.

 

What I saw up till now in this thread is that there's at least proof of something like "who cares as long as I enjoy myself". Now, nothing wrong with that, but meanwhile we should care as long as e.g. I use a more expensive system, enjoy that for certain aspects, while I am told that I must be deaf because a 1500 system can do the same..

Get the gist ? we can not communicate like this, especially not when people claim physics properties in the realm of "can't be anyway, and since I also don't perceive differences I will put those properties up for you boy so dig that". And of course I say that this can not be done with the 1500 system compared to the say 20K one.

 

Taking this further, but now to more real merits, when one has the 20K system - carefully selected, and the other has a 25K one also carefully selected, and those two throw arguments to each other of what is and can not be, THEN I would see this as very useful and the DBT's and all can begin.

 

But isn't it clear from this thread that no matter what, people can defend the 1500 (already because it's asked) and that exactly those will not be able - and should not be allowed to tell e.g. me that no differences can be heard in my setup just because the 1500 won't allow it in the first place ?

I am not saying that all do, but those who do are quite persistent. And of course it is for a reason that over 1/3 voted for it.

 

Luckily, what I see so far, there's more consensus about something like "yeah, you're right; I vote for the 1500 while I know it actually can't be done but I am happy as it is anyway".

So mind you, there's less explicit response from those (the 2/3) who voted for the simplified "above 1500", which even includes myself. This in itself could be something like "yeah, right, 20K++ but I am not even sure I can justify it; I could be obsessed". Well, let me tell you, 100% ALL such systems and with way more $$ spent sound like crap to ME. So now what.

 

So on one side it is seems easy to compare 1500 with 20K+ for e.g. me (but others too of course) and claim the impossible, but on the other side it is way more complicated because there's not even a justified way to compare two 20K+ systems. But the difference : *that* can be sorted out because there's fundament to sort it out. If needed of course. But let's say that this is part of the hobby, especially on a forum.

 

 

So Peter, because I happen to think my Mac Mini running JRiver puts out sound as good as or better than your XXHighEnd on a Windows PC, that means I have tin ears?

 

I think what you might be revealing here is a not so hidden predjudice - that spending a lot of money - some minimum amount - is required to be a serious audiophile.

 

I certainly do not agree with that.

 

It is true that sometimes you need a better system to first hear what you are listening for. But once you hear it and recognize something in a piece of music, you can almost always hear it anywhere on any system.

 

I think that a Mac Mini, or a CAPS, or many other relatively inexpensive machines, like NAA machines, are great platforms for audiophiles to use. And I strongly suspect most anyone using them can hear just about anything there is to hear on them, beautifully rendered and with engaging, clear, high resolution, non fatiguing sound. Without spending $20k. Sound every bit as good, or better, than far more expensive vinyl rigs, $16k CD players, etc.

 

YMMV, but I also think there is an entire new generation of audiophiles out there starting with a phone and a set of headphones.

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

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YMMV, but I also think there is an entire new generation of audiophiles out there starting with a phone and a set of headphones.

 

Ho ho, our son received his sub woofer for his phone two weeks ago. Plays over WiFi and everything, so there's light on the horizon.

Lush^3-e      Lush^2      Blaxius^2.5      Ethernet^3     HDMI^2     XLR^2

XXHighEnd (developer)

Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer)

Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer)

Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier)

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Ho ho, our son received his sub woofer for his phone two weeks ago. Plays over WiFi and everything, so there's light on the horizon.

 

Is it just me or did the black light using guys on drugs in the 1970's always have the best stereo systems?

Win10 Sweetwater recording studio PC running JRMC > Soundcraft Ui24r 24-track digital mixer > JBL LSR308 via Magomi Balanced XLR cable pair

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Is it just me or did the black light using guys on drugs in the 1970's always have the best stereo systems?

 

or the black lights and the drugs just made it seem that way

Main listening (small home office):

Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments.

Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three .

Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup.
Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. 

All absolute statements about audio are false :)

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or the black lights and the drugs just made it seem that way

 

 

As a youth, I was too much of a prude to do drugs, so that whole scene passed me right by. The first high end Marantz I ever saw in a teenager's bedroom was the drug-taking black light-using kid down the street. Black Sabbath sounded particularly good.

Win10 Sweetwater recording studio PC running JRMC > Soundcraft Ui24r 24-track digital mixer > JBL LSR308 via Magomi Balanced XLR cable pair

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So, what is the price point for a "great" audiophile system? A minimum of $3K for speakers?

 

Am I an idiot because I am debating which $1.5K speakers to audition after auditioning a pair of B&W 685 S2s powered by my PS Audio Sprout? Add to that the fact that I listen in a small DC townhouse where speakers will most likely be too close to the walls and, *horror*, a corner.

 

Some of us just want to get the best sounding system we can within a budget and in the modest homes we own. Some people are open to this pursuit. But when reviewers talk about their $20K systems and how "entry level" products like Pono and PS Audio Sprout sound with their $6K speakers it really does come across as elitist. That's a problem for this hobby.

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So, what is the price point for a "great" audiophile system? A minimum of $3K for speakers?

 

Am I an idiot because I am debating which $1.5K speakers to audition after auditioning a pair of B&W 685 S2s powered by my PS Audio Sprout? Add to that the fact that I listen in a small DC townhouse where speakers will most likely be too close to the walls and, *horror*, a corner.

 

Some of us just want to get the best sounding system we can within a budget and in the modest homes we own. Some people are open to this pursuit. But when reviewers talk about their $20K systems and how "entry level" products like Pono and PS Audio Sprout sound with their $6K speakers it really does come across as elitist. That's a problem for this hobby.

 

A couple of months ago, while using my apparently less-than-audiophile-cheap-ass speakers, I posted this: http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f8-general-forum/still-smiling-22543/. Don't honestly think you're an idiot.

 

edit: was using my Ohm loudspeakers btw .. you know, the ones that couldn't possibly sound "correct" because they are pseudo-omni design.

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So, what is the price point for a "great" audiophile system? A minimum of $3K for speakers?

 

I've heard a number of mega-bux speakers (>$10K) from Wilson, Thiel, Aerial, Revel, Vienna, MBL, JBL, and others. My favorites are Vivid Giya G2, Vandersteen Seven, TAD Reference One, and Avalon Ascent Mk II. And I'm here to tell you that the $2.5K Vandersteen 2Ce Sig IIs give you most of the sound quality of those $$$ models. To be clear, the more expensive speakers are better but the improvement in SQ is not at all in proportion to the price difference. So, it comes down to your definition of "great". I'm very happy with my system and think it's "great", but I also know that more $$$ could make it greater.

 

IMO, something like the KEF LS50 might be the entry speaker to "great" sound. I doubt, however, I would be happy to start over at that level. It's pretty painful to go backwards in SQ. I think the trick is to carefully buy the best components your budget allows and pay attention to set-up (ala Jim Smith's "Get Better Sound"). IME, speakers and amp are about equally important, followed by source.

Roon ROCK (Roon 1.7; NUC7i3) > Ayre QB-9 Twenty > Ayre AX-5 Twenty > Thiel CS2.4SE (crossovers rebuilt with Clarity CSA and Multicap RTX caps, Mills MRA-12 resistors; ERSE and Jantzen coils; Cardas binding posts and hookup wire); Cardas and OEM power cables, interconnects, and speaker cables

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So, what is the price point for a "great" audiophile system? A minimum of $3K for speakers?

 

Am I an idiot because I am debating which $1.5K speakers to audition after auditioning a pair of B&W 685 S2s powered by my PS Audio Sprout? Add to that the fact that I listen in a small DC townhouse where speakers will most likely be too close to the walls and, *horror*, a corner.

 

Some of us just want to get the best sounding system we can within a budget and in the modest homes we own. Some people are open to this pursuit. But when reviewers talk about their $20K systems and how "entry level" products like Pono and PS Audio Sprout sound with their $6K speakers it really does come across as elitist. That's a problem for this hobby.

 

Regarding speakers, it's regrettable that the speakers I felt were my entry to the high end, the Vandersteen 2 series, were substantially less than $1.5K back when I first bought them, but are now $2.5K. (The 1Ci is $1249 a pair - you might have a look at them unless they don't fit the bill for some reason.) Yes, I know the 2 series is probably actually more affordable considering inflation over the last 25 years, but it would be lovely if the sticker prices of these things actually went down over the years, like televisions. Of course there the economies of scale, the improvements and consequent reduction of cost in manufacturing processes, etc., are enormous.

 

Similarly, if I wanted to buy the most "economical" preamp in Spectral's line, that ~20 years ago cost around $3000, and I got for less from a dealer friend, today's version would cost double that. (Though I did start out with a lower priced but still fine preamp from another manufacturer who's no longer in business.) Again, I know that with inflation the actual cost in constant dollars is probably less, but just with the speakers and the preamp we're talking about the price of a decent used car. (Speaking of which, the used market, buying and selling, can get you some bargains, though it's understandable if people don't want to go to the trouble and risk.)

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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A couple of months ago, while using my apparently less-than-audiophile-cheap-ass speakers, I posted this: http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f8-general-forum/still-smiling-22543/. Don't honestly think you're an idiot.

 

edit: was using my Ohm loudspeakers btw .. you know, the ones that couldn't possibly sound "correct" because they are pseudo-omni design.

 

hehehe From that thread :

 

Hello Ajax .. wonderful moment for you and your son. I quite agree with you, great sound doesn't require enormous amounts of cash anymore! Lucky us :-)

 

Only for fun and nothing else, but how does this combine ? (what is it ? 20K+ for that speaker ? I mean, the Ohm)

 

Otherwise, yes :

 

Judy (who has no interest in our hobby) said "you know, if I closed my eyes right now I would think those musicians were right here in the room with us". My friend, while not an audiophile, is a music lover and has seen countless live performances in her 60 years. I think it was perhaps the nicest compliment ever paid to me regarding my audio system. Yes, I'm still smiling.

 

It can very well be about that. At least for me it is one of those super moment that I think YES !

 

So thank you for the in my view great example. Hard to make it a measure, but yes.

 

Peter

Lush^3-e      Lush^2      Blaxius^2.5      Ethernet^3     HDMI^2     XLR^2

XXHighEnd (developer)

Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer)

Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer)

Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier)

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As a youth, I was too much of a prude to do drugs, so that whole scene passed me right by. The first high end Marantz I ever saw in a teenager's bedroom was the drug-taking black light-using kid down the street. Black Sabbath sounded particularly good.

 

Gary, the first audio system I put together as a kid in the 70s was with a Sansui 7070 that I traded a used dirt bike to a guy that sorta fits your description....:) I still have that receiver and have loaned it to my nephew (16), along with some Infinity RSE's circa 1980, who is not buying into what the industry is selling kids his age. I figure if I can save one there is still hope!

"The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place". George Bernard Shaw.

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I'm actually considering auditioning the KEF LS50, but am not so sure they are right for my room (I think I mentioned I am in a townhouse). I'm also considering the Wharfedale Jade 3s if I can find them.

 

If you are looking purely for bookshelf/standmounts, I've read nice things about Focal (but never heard their standmounts), which I believe has speakers in your price range. And both I and another forum member (senorx, I believe) have Pioneer desktop speakers designed by Andrew Jones which sound very nice and cost all of about $100, unless you find them on sale for less. None of these will give you low, accurate bass, but many famous "audiophile" standmounted speakers over the years could be described that way (Spica TC-50, anyone?). Of course if you want to rock out that means you'll likely be doing it with headphones.

 

Edit: If you don't mind DIY and are prepared to wait, mayhem13 is in the midst of a "desktop" speaker project (in quotes because it includes a small subwoofer). I don't know what the eventual cost of parts will be for that.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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Thanks, Jud. I have the Pioneers by Andrew Jones, that is what I am upgrading from. :-)

 

I'm not opposed to floorstanding speakers, just figured I'd get more value with bookshelf/standmounts.

 

For value, I'll agree with beetlemania (and myself :) ) - see if you can listen to the Vandersteen 1Ci which is in your price range new, and/or listen to the 2 series and search for them used. I would look for the 2Ce, or the 2Ce Signature.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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