DBT vs. Anecdotes (More Important than Audio)

petaluma · February 4, 2015

You are right. Don't rat me out to my virologist wife.

It appears that the CDC is mainly concerned that its widespread use will result in selection for resistant flu strains (which currently exist).

Seems we are looking at heading down the same path we pursued with antibiotics......

Everything I have read suggests a maximum of 48 hours from first symptom onset, I don't know about other folks but I rarely do anything about symptoms initially because unless a fever appears I assume allergies on my part.

Reduction in duration of the case by a day or two at most.

In regards to this years flu vaccine design missed the mark significantly. I am unsure of the exact numbers but some where below 30% effectiveness.

Paul R · February 4, 2015

Yep- I just had an "upper respiratory infection" that hung in there for a week and a half before it decided to moderate, but tested negative for the flu thank goodness. That long *with* a zPack. Not that I could really tell the difference in the symptoms. Fever, Ache, racking productive cough, and general malaise.

What really scares me is the resurgence of the measles. I seem to be a magnet for measles, and that nasty little virus is setup perfectly for aerosol deployment. I had not even looked at the measles until someone here mentioned that people are idiotically not getting their children immunized. I sure hope childhood immunity carries over into late adulthood.

-Paul

Audiophile Neuroscience · February 4, 2015

I am still pondering whether I have the flu, a lingering bacterial infection, or emphysema without the formality of smoking. It only seems to kick in when I go to bed.

Nah, its just an hallucination ;-)

Okay, just yanking your chain Bill.Hope you feel better soon. Btw cardiac as well as respiratory problems can be positionally/gravitationally dependent (such as being supine at night) but not suggesting applies to you.Changes in ambient temp may also be a factor.As Jud also mentioned some things follow a diurnal *rhythm*....so perhaps your bug is an audiophile...oh the irony ;-)

wgscott · February 4, 2015

I am comforted by the fact that whatever it is, it is demonstrably contagious. If it is (was) the flu, it was extremely mild (no fever, etc). My guess is it is a bacterial sinus infection (at least in its current form, based on the quality of the lung cookies -- I only spent 6 weeks in med school).

petaluma · February 4, 2015

Yep- I just had an "upper respiratory infection" that hung in there for a week and a half before it decided to moderate, but tested negative for the flu thank goodness. That long *with* a zPack. Not that I could really tell the difference in the symptoms. Fever, Ache, racking productive cough, and general malaise.

What really scares me is the resurgence of the measles. I seem to be a magnet for measles, and that nasty little virus is setup perfectly for aerosol deployment. I had not even looked at the measles until someone here mentioned that people are idiotically not getting their children immunized. I sure hope childhood immunity carries over into late adulthood.

-Paul

Paul don't mean to feed your fears but I read an article over on CNN yesterday regarding the anti-vac stink going on around the MMR vaccine. So I went out to the WHO site to look for some info on the measles. According to the WHO in 2013 145,700 worldwide were lost to the disease. I went to the comment section and posted this trying to, with no success to point out it is a deadly disease, provided some hard data to what was essentially a shouting match. The anti-vac folks turned on me really quickly. Started throwing statements at me about closing the borders, immigrants are the cause, even, and I shit you not that extremist Islamic factions were behind it, and if the government did something about it they would not need to vaccinate..... I quickly deleted my comment account and I ain't going back!

That's why I like it here, for the most part... , rationality has its day.

Jud · February 4, 2015

Seems we are looking at heading down the same path we pursued with antibiotics......

Everything I have read suggests a maximum of 48 hours from first symptom onset, I don't know about other folks but I rarely do anything about symptoms initially because unless a fever appears I assume allergies on my part.

Reduction in duration of the case by a day or two at most.

In regards to this years flu vaccine design missed the mark significantly. I am unsure of the exact numbers but some where below 30% effectiveness.

I knew what it was immediately, since they were the exact symptoms my wife initially showed, particularly the dry cough.

Although the vaccine is only 23% effective overall (worse for babies and seniors, better for those in between), there is some indication that symptoms may be at least partially ameliorated for those who get the flu after being vaccinated.

sandyk · February 4, 2015

there is some indication that symptoms may be at least partially ameliorated for those who get the flu after being vaccinated

If the family goes down with the flu, despite being regularly vaccinated, I appear to get a much milder form, that would probably be much less if I wasn't an Asthmatic too. However, this often drags on for many weeks.

Paul R · February 4, 2015

Paul don't mean to feed your fears but I read an article over on CNN yesterday regarding the anti-vac stink going on around the MMR vaccine. So I went out to the WHO site to look for some info on the measles. According to the WHO in 2013 145,700 worldwide were lost to the disease. I went to the comment section and posted this trying to, with no success to point out it is a deadly disease, provided some hard data to what was essentially a shouting match. The anti-vac folks turned on me really quickly. Started throwing statements at me about closing the borders, immigrants are the cause, even, and I shit you not that extremist Islamic factions were behind it, and if the government did something about it they would not need to vaccinate..... I quickly deleted my comment account and I ain't going back!

That's why I like it here, for the most part... , rationality has its day.

Anti-vac. Sounds like a comic book menace. It boggles the imagination that people won't vaccinate their children, they do seem to have some warped logic. Like, everyone else is getting their kids vaccinated, so it will be like a wall around their kids. (!) Such logic could put any audiophile's rationalizations to utter shame. Any parent knows their kid is going to catch any random sickness roaming around the school/daycare/neighborhood/playground.

If I remember rightly, the measles virus grows in little pods in the throat which rupture with coughs and sneezes. The little buggers can live quite a long time on external surfaces too, hours I think.

Only the current generations, never had to face polio, measles, mumps and such would be this idiotic. Our kids never were exposed to this, so they don't have an understanding of how dangerous it can be. They Lord - take them babies in for their shots!

-Paul

Audiophile Neuroscience · February 4, 2015

I am comforted by the fact that whatever it is, it is demonstrably contagious. If it is (was) the flu, it was extremely mild (no fever, etc). My guess is it is a bacterial sinus infection (at least in its current form, based on the quality of the lung cookies -- I only spent 6 weeks in med school).

it could have started out as a mild viral infection, more likely cold than flu, then with secondary bacterial component in bronchi,sinuses whatever. If the lung cookies are yellow or green most take it as evidence of bacterial contamination or infection."Scientifically", sputum (and/or blood) would need to be cultured and bac identified. Rightly or wrongly people may be started on antibiotics without testing.If people are "sick" and/or otherwise at risk, experienced clinicians wont wait for test results.I recall one of the first nights I was a senior resident in charge of hospital admissions in an overfilled hospital.I admitted an old boy with bad cough,sputum but no fever,no raised white cells and normal chest xray.After taking blood and sputums I started him on iv antibiotics. The next day the repiratory specialist challenged my decision asking why I admitted him.I replied because he looked so sick. he replied, good answer.Turns out he had pneumonia.

Evidently, I am a slow learner, I spent 13 years in med school which is why i recognise technical terms like lung cookies.

Paul don't mean to feed your fears but I read an article over on CNN yesterday regarding the anti-vac stink going on around the MMR vaccine. So I went out to the WHO site to look for some info on the measles. According to the WHO in 2013 145,700 worldwide were lost to the disease. I went to the comment section and posted this trying to, with no success to point out it is a deadly disease, provided some hard data to what was essentially a shouting match. The anti-vac folks turned on me really quickly. Started throwing statements at me about closing the borders, immigrants are the cause, even, and I shit you not that extremist Islamic factions were behind it, and if the government did something about it they would not need to vaccinate..... I quickly deleted my comment account and I ain't going back!

That's why I like it here, for the most part... , rationality has its day.

Measles vaccine is not without risk and I have seen some very bad outcomes.That said, I got vaccinated and so did my kids and so will my grandkids (if I have any say). Its about population risk and selfish people that rely on others to take some risk getting vaccinated to keep the disease of low prevalence in the population. If prevalence is low the positive predictive value of measles testing is lowered accordingly and risk of disease for non vaccinated people is also obviously lessened. If prevalence is high then even the selfish want to get vaccinated.

petaluma · February 4, 2015

Anti-vac. Sounds like a comic book menace. It boggles the imagination that people won't vaccinate their children, they do seem to have some warped logic. Like, everyone else is getting their kids vaccinated, so it will be like a wall around their kids. (!) Such logic could put any audiophile's rationalizations to utter shame. Any parent knows their kid is going to catch any random sickness roaming around the school/daycare/neighborhood/playground.

If I remember rightly, the measles virus grows in little pods in the throat which rupture with coughs and sneezes. The little buggers can live quite a long time on external surfaces too, hours I think.

Only the current generations, never had to face polio, measles, mumps and such would be this idiotic. Our kids never were exposed to this, so they don't have an understanding of how dangerous it can be. They Lord - take them babies in for their shots!

-Paul

Its a double edge sword right? Vaccines have eliminated/reduced infectious disease deaths to extremely low numbers but at the same time over generations has reduced the collective recollection of how bad it used to be. My family was impacted by infectious disease. My dad's brother succumbed to Whopping Cough as a child in the 1930s and my dad barely survived.

I also am beginning to believe that the anti-vac crowd like a number of other "anti" groups is really about this deep seeded need to re-establish their "Individualism" at the expense of collective. Sorry for the borg reference. No hard data just the tenor of discussion out there that I probably am misunderstanding. Wouldn't be the first time.

Paul R · February 4, 2015

Its a double edge sword right? Vaccines have eliminated reduced infectious disease deaths to extremely low numbers but at the same time over generations has reduce the collective recollection of how bad it used to be. My family was impacted by infectious disease. My dad's brother succumbed to Whopping Cough as a child in the 1930s and my dad barely survived.

I also am beginning to believe that the anti-vac crowd like a number of other "anti" groups is really about this deep seeded need to re-establish their "Individualism" at the expense of collective. Sorry for the borg reference. No hard data just the tenor of discussion out there that I probably am misunderstanding. Wouldn't be the first time.

Individualism ahoy! I'm all for it. But the true individualist would not let a stray photon from his yard lamp disturb a neighbor, except in an emergency. Much less let let his neighbor's kids contract the measles because he would not get a vaccination.

-Paul

petaluma · February 4, 2015

Measles vaccine is not without risk and I have seen some very bad outcomes.That said, I got vaccinated and so did my kids and so will my grandkids (if I have any say). Its about population risk and selfish people that rely on others to take some risk getting vaccinated to keep the disease of low prevalence in the population. If prevalence is low the positive predictive value of measles testing is lowered accordingly and risk of disease for non vaccinated people is also obviously lessened. If prevalence is high then even the selfish want to get vaccinated.

Alex, absolutely understand there are risks involved with putting anything in your body. Most of what we do as human beings has some, I don't mean to sound flippant because were talking about folks dying, collateral damage.

Jud · February 4, 2015

Measles vaccine is not without risk and I have seen some very bad outcomes.That said, I got vaccinated and so did my kids and so will my grandkids (if I have any say). Its about population risk and selfish people that rely on others to take some risk getting vaccinated to keep the disease of low prevalence in the population. If prevalence is low the positive predictive value of measles testing is lowered accordingly and risk of disease for non vaccinated people is also obviously lessened. If prevalence is high then even the selfish want to get vaccinated.

Right, though the vaccine risk is lower by orders of magnitude than the disease risk. There are in fact parents so daft they believe advice to vaccinate is a conspiracy to make money for Big Pharma while hiding the "fact" that vaccines cause autism, and that the diseases are not bad at all, so they have wonderful things like "measles parties" where everyone can get exposed to someone who has the disease. No, I am unfortunately not making this up.

Paul R · February 4, 2015

Right, though the vaccine risk is lower by orders of magnitude than the disease risk. There are in fact parents so daft they believe advice to vaccinate is a conspiracy to make money for Big Pharma while hiding the "fact" that vaccines cause autism, and that the diseases are not bad at all, so they have wonderful things like "measles parties" where everyone can get exposed to someone who has the disease. No, I am unfortunately not making this up.

(sound of jaw hitting the floor) Measles parties?! That has to count as reckless child endangerment or something, doesn't it? The only other explanation would be evolution in action.

-Paul

petaluma · February 4, 2015

Alex, absolutely understand there are risks involved with putting anything in your body. Most of what we do as human beings has some, I don't mean to sound flippant because were talking about folks dying, collateral damage.

Audiophile Neuroscience, I would like to apologize for calling you Alex. For what reason, I do not know other than old age, confused you with Superdad. Apologies to both parties

wgscott · February 4, 2015

Paul don't mean to feed your fears but I read an article over on CNN yesterday regarding the anti-vac stink going on around the MMR vaccine. So I went out to the WHO site to look for some info on the measles. According to the WHO in 2013 145,700 worldwide were lost to the disease. I went to the comment section and posted this trying to, with no success to point out it is a deadly disease, provided some hard data to what was essentially a shouting match. The anti-vac folks turned on me really quickly. Started throwing statements at me about closing the borders, immigrants are the cause, even, and I shit you not that extremist Islamic factions were behind it, and if the government did something about it they would not need to vaccinate..... I quickly deleted my comment account and I ain't going back!

That's why I like it here, for the most part... , rationality has its day.

At our local school, the vaccine compliance rate is 38%; which puts us right up their with the worst of the Marin whackadoodles. (It is estimated you need > 92% for herd immunity).

wgscott · February 4, 2015

Audiophile Neuroscience, I would like to apologize for calling you Alex. For what reason, I do not know other than old age, confused you with Superdad. Apologies to both parties

I propose for now on anyone from down under who says anything remotely subjectivist shall hereby be known as Alex (queue the Monty Python philosopher's song).

elcorso · February 4, 2015

Inosine pranobex - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'm sorry Jud but I was very close to the Isoprinosine research, first in the US, then in my country, where there was the development for this product for the whole world (after being banned by the FDA). Maybe the description in Wikipedia fits what the competence wants

Roch

sandyk · February 4, 2015

Alex, absolutely understand there are risks involved with putting anything in your body

Deleted.

petaluma · February 4, 2015

Petaluma

Medical Specialist, Dr. David L. posted what you were replying to.

Regards

Alex

Thank you sir! But now I have to remember 2 Alexs'....Will the madness never end. Davids' I have no problem because I am one.

David

elcorso · February 4, 2015

Quite the twerkout.

My nephew sent me a video of a news segment about a woman arrested for twerking a school bus, with the legend, "My Dad says this is why we can't have nice things."

Ha, ha, ha... There is another YouTube a friend send me with JL 'dancing' FRAULES. Of course she does very carefully, not their companions. She was afraid of damaging his beautiful 'back'?

Cheers!

Roch

PS/ I never got the flu and rarely a cold. On the first cold symptoms Isoprinosine protects me. BTW, I don't have any commercial affiliation with this product, but in my former farm we made a lot of studies with animal virus. (DBT don't needed in animals )

One and a half · February 4, 2015

Wow.

The topics around here must be pretty thin on the ground if all there is to talk about are medical problems.

So who's got cabin fever then?

sandyk · February 4, 2015

At our local school, the vaccine compliance rate is 38%; which puts us right up their with the worst of the Marin whackadoodles. (It is estimated you need > 92% for herd immunity).

Research from the National Health Performance Authority has found 77,000 Australian children are not fully immunised.

The study, 'Healthy Communities: Immunisation rates for children in 2011-12', measures the percentage of children who were considered fully immunised at one, two, three and five years of age.

It found 32 areas where the percentage of children fully immunised was 85 per cent or lower for at least one age group. The AMA says anything below 93 per cent is unsafe.

AMA president Steve Hambleton says vaccination rates are dropping in low socio-demographic areas, but also in wealthy city pockets.

petaluma · February 4, 2015

I propose for now on anyone from down under who says anything remotely subjectivist shall hereby be known as Alex (queue the Monty Python philosopher's song).

Bill, wooooooooooah Nellie. Simple brain fart on my part regarding names....absolutely, absolutely, absolutely not commenting on objectivist vs subjectivist leanings....... But I do think the MP boys are brilliant!

Audiophile Neuroscience · February 5, 2015

Alex, absolutely understand there are risks involved with putting anything in your body. Most of what we do as human beings has some, I don't mean to sound flippant because were talking about folks dying, collateral damage.

Im all for measles vaccinations. As Jud said, the magnitude of risk is far less than the disease.

Right, though the vaccine risk is lower by orders of magnitude than the disease risk. There are in fact parents so daft they believe advice to vaccinate is a conspiracy to make money for Big Pharma while hiding the "fact" that vaccines cause autism, and that the diseases are not bad at all, so they have wonderful things like "measles parties" where everyone can get exposed to someone who has the disease. No, I am unfortunately not making this up.

Scary stuff !!

Audiophile Neuroscience, I would like to apologize for calling you Alex. For what reason, I do not know other than old age, confused you with Superdad. Apologies to both parties

No problems at all Greg....just kidding, David.

I propose for now on anyone from down under who says anything remotely subjectivist shall hereby be known as Alex (queue the Monty Python philosopher's song).

Bill, wooooooooooah Nellie. Simple brain fart on my part regarding names....absolutely, absolutely, absolutely not commenting on objectivist vs subjectivist leanings....... But I do think the MP boys are brilliant!

Bill fits in one swipe at aussies per thread ;-)

My fav MP scene was when the crowd was being told by the messiah that they were all individuals the crowd chanted in unison, "we're all individuals".One guy at the back then pipes up, "Im not !"

Cheers

David

DBT vs. Anecdotes (More Important than Audio)

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