Should blind testing discussion be banned on CA? POLL

[gstanley75]

How about this, all pundits must take a hearing test and post the results as part of their qualifications before making any comments about the sound quality. Then we can judge the veracity of their comments with more information than the fact that the commentator, reviewer or pundit has xx years of experience reviewing.

 

And all those objectivists must post calibration information on their measurements.

 

And all DBTs must post raw and statistical data before making any comments.

 

Or we could listen to my wife who has better hearing than my old-fart ears and a background in philosophy, who reminded me that there is no objectivism without subjectivism. ???

[Allan F]

Or we could listen to my wife who has better hearing than my old-fart ears and a background in philosophy, who reminded me that there is no objectivism without subjectivism. 

 

Only if you are prepared to share your wife...er....your wife's ears, that is!

[trithio]

Excellent comment.

 

But do we put a blanket of protection on listening experiences so they aren't subject to some uncomfortable questions?

 

 

First of all NO to the thread's question. Would be funny to ban a subject after everyone complained so much about the HA bans on non dbt.

 

In my view the above wuote is actually the better question. But I'm all for creating some sort a special thread. For example one where you have to be invited. Maybe not the best idea because of the clear fragmentation that it will provoke. Maybe someone has a better idea.

 

And Superdad, I do not think a public forum can be likened to a private party. It's a marketplace, anyone can say his/hers opinion. Or just yell trolls. There is no party crasher concept on a public forum.

And also, in case I was actually invited to your dinner, I would expect you invited my opinions too. Dont think your comparison holds much water but other than that I'm all for civil and especially To-The-Point discussions.

My view is that one is allowed to hit the message with everything he got. Just leave the messenger alone.

[trithio]

Keep the DBT discussions, but equally have a DBT free forum section. I suppose that's too much like Head-fi....

 

May not be the worst idea. Plus and minus like with everything else.

 

Here is a sample. Someone posts some cableX is night and day better report. It is obvious he did not even half test that. Is anyone with objective opinions allowed to say anything or should just avoid the thread? Can I at least say that my cables do not sound at all!?

Or someone with an obvious comercial interest starts praising his own horses. Are we allowed to say 'helllooo!'

And where does 'no DBT' stop exactly? Can I still say 'anecdote' in the no DBT zone?

[Paul R]

Banning a topic would be stupid.

 

Hijacking threads continually about a hobbyhorse topic is just purely asinine. (Many more examples of this than just DBTs.)

 

Topics created to tease or otherwise draw fire on a controversial subject should be started only by thick skinned people wearing lead underwear. Participants likewise.

 

Conclusion- we should try to talk about hot button topics like this in their own threads. Like this one.

[mmerrill99]

I just noticed that DBT thread has been deleted. Pity it wasn't just closed as I thought there was some useful information on it & I feel the message about DBTs lack of error rate for false negatives is a very important one - needs to be aired & more people made aware of it.

 

Fact of the matter is blind tests can be useful as one of many personal checks on our auditory perception - it's the pre-eminence that is attached to it, by some, that is grating.

 

I do agree that, on audio forums, the only real problem is the use of DBTs as a way of derailing a thread & it doesn't have to be aggressively done to be annoying, just being done insistently is enough.

[mmerrill99]

How about this, all pundits must take a hearing test and post the results as part of their qualifications before making any comments about the sound quality. Then we can judge the veracity of their comments with more information than the fact that the commentator, reviewer or pundit has xx years of experience reviewing.

 

And all those objectivists must post calibration information on their measurements.

 

And all DBTs must post raw and statistical data before making any comments.

 

Or we could listen to my wife who has better hearing than my old-fart ears and a background in philosophy, who reminded me that there is no objectivism without subjectivism. 

 

Instead of all this, I propose that the only DBT results that should be allowed discussion of are those that have published false negative rates - effectively that will eliminate all DBTs

[miguelito]

Pretty simple.

 

Yes, it should be banned.

 

No, it should not be banned.

 

Note this is a public poll.

 

Rudeness should be banned. If a respectful post is addressed with a rude response because this person does not like the content then that should be frowned upon as well.

[Jud]

Rudeness should be banned. If a respectful post is addressed with a rude response because this person does not like the content then that should be frowned upon as well.

 

 

 

Or ban ourselves from being rude - be respectful or if giving a humorous "needle," do so only with those who'll "get it."

[Jud]

I voted that discussion of DBT should not be banned, by the way.

[audiventory]

Why banned?

 

We must simple remember what double blind test must have:

1. More 100 measurements / participants.

2. Developed and accepted methodics.

3. Professional sertified (as measuring tools) equipment / software almost in all cases.

 

It is impossible in home conditions and wihtout investments.

[mav52]

Rudeness should be banned. If a respectful post is addressed with a rude response because this person does not like the content then that should be frowned upon as well.

 

+1

 

Banning topics , good grief if that starts might as well ban every topic in the general discussion area, heck might as well ban anything computer audio as everyone has an opinion even if people agree or disagree. A ban on topics, what's next ban on certain types of music, where a person lives, if a person likes CD and vinyl or if a person has tubes.

 

Lets just get on with supporting this hobby instead of screwing the hobby into the ground with banter and rudeness.

[Jud]

Hi Yuri. To meet academic standards, yes. Just as something a member wants to do for him or herself and then discuss, though it may not meet academic standards, I think that is fine too. We don't ask for confirming tests or measurements for other topics, so I don't see a need to have a different rule for discussion of DBTs.

[wgscott]

about a hobbyhorse topic

 

First reeftanks. Now bikes?

[Allan F]

Why banned?...

 

...It is impossible in home conditions and without investments.

 

The poll referred to discussion of the topic, not implementation of DBTs. What is the harm in that? Your comment about standards is a good example of an expression of a point of view that should not be banned.

[petaluma]

First reeftanks. Now bikes?

You forgot to add Mom's cooking....

[Daudio]

Asking for DBT's on an internet forum has never silenced anybody ever

 

Then it is an entirely useless practice, and should be stopped immediately !

 

Besides, it really pisses people off

[audiventory]

Hi Yuri. To meet academic standards, yes. Just as something a member wants to do for him or herself and then discuss, though it may not meet academic standards, I think that is fine too. We don't ask for confirming tests or measurements for other topics, so I don't see a need to have a different rule for discussion of DBTs.

 

Hi Jud.

 

I agree that no need ban (and voted for it) all except non-correct rude words to anybody.

 

Everybody has right for your own opinion (right or wrong for others), and to make any check including double blind test.

 

P.S. Always need re-check even pro-test's purity if want refer to it

[Superdad]

You guys do remember that this very same poll/ thread topic was launched last June (by thesurfingalien: http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f8-general-forum/should-objective-oriented-computer-audiophile-members-stop-asking-dbt-test-results-computer-audiophile-20848/), and that it went to 200 posts?

 

What's funny is that the vote on that one was pretty evenly split. BTW, unlike this one, that poll was a public one (in that you could see the member names after voting).

[christopher3393]

Or ban ourselves from being rude - be respectful or if giving a humorous "needle," do so only with those who'll "get it."

 

Interesting. This brought to mind a few Buddhist verses that challenge me:

 

"He berated me! He hurt me!

He beat me! He deprived me!"

For those who hold such grudges

hostility is not appeased.

 

"He berated me! He hurt me!

He beat me! He deprived me!"

For those who forgo such grudges,

hostility ceases.

 

In this world

hostilities are never

appeased by hostility.

But by the absence of hostility

are they appeased.

This is a timeless truth.

 

Some do not understand

that we are perishing here.

Those who understand this

bring to rest their quarrels.

 

Dhammapada, ch.1

[Daudio]

I just noticed that DBT thread has been deleted. Pity it wasn't just closed as I thought there was some useful information on it & I feel the message about DBTs lack of error rate for false negatives is a very important one - needs to be aired & more people made aware of it.

 

Jud told me in a PM that he valued that thread for all the technical information it brought out of the woodwork, regardless of his feelings about the OP. And I can certainly see what he means, through it was painful to get there, suffering the offensives and annoying waste of VSS*. I got so bummed out by trithio's ubiquitous assholery that I walked away from my laptop for a day, so I missed the 'disappearance' until now. (When did it occur ?)

 

The loss of those posts, both good and bad, leaves this forum, and this community, poorer, devaluing the brand, sowing FUD and other unpleasant feelings.

 

 

the use of DBTs as a way of derailing a thread & it doesn't have to be aggressively done to be annoying, just being done insistently is enough.

 

Agreed. Enough is enough.

 

 

To All:

 

So the question is should something be banned on CA ? Right ?

 

What's with all this talk of "banning" ? First trithio started taunting us with it after a warning, then his camp followers chimed in with sarcastic comments about banning. Now, someone has actually been banned (and not just banned, but disappeared !), and you want to talk about banning some thing else ?? This is starting to sound like one of those 'hanging' mobs in an old lawless western town. You know like in the movies. You really want to be one of those guys ?

 

I vote HELL NO !

 

Makes me wonder why it is so damn hard to tell 'ideas and beliefs' apart from 'forum behaviors' ?

It's not rocket science, is it ?

 

 

 

* Valuable Screen Space )

[kumakuma]

Jud told me in a PM that he valued that thread for all the technical information it brought out of the woodwork, regardless of his feelings about the OP. And I can certainly see what he means, through it was painful to get there, suffering the offensives and annoying waste of VSS*. I got so bummed out by trithio's ubiquitous assholery that I walked away from my laptop for a day, so I missed the 'disappearance' until now. (When did it occur ?)

 

The loss of those posts, both good and bad, leaves this forum, and this community, poorer, devaluing the brand, sowing FUD and other unpleasant feelings.

 

In fairness to Chris, it is quite possible that he didn't realize that deleting a user's posts also seems to cause any threads that they started to also be deleted.

[PeterSt]

Then it is an entirely useless practice, and should be stopped immediately !

 

Besides, it really pisses people off

 

No, ignored threads do.

[esldude]

I voted no because anything should be open for discussion.

What I don't understand is the level of certainty expressed by DBT proponents, there is no scientific curiosity about why people keep reporting differences. Statistics is a valid scientific way at looking at data and the probability that people are deluding themselves over sound differences is getting smaller by the day.

So, it's the dogmatic tone of the DBT proponents and bits are bits crowd that get's the hackles up.

Why does any of this matter ? Well there are plenty of bits are bits forums, but a place where people contribute towards the better understanding and improvement of their musical experience is rare and should be nurtured.

 

Is it less hubris to have and abide by multiple pieces of evidence or to say I heard it and you should not dispute what I heard while offering no other evidence in support? An abundance of evidence will lead to confidence in someone's ideas. A single bit of evidence not corrobated makes one touchy if they have nothing else in support beyond other anecdotes from other people.

[wgscott]

BTW, unlike this one, that poll was a public one (in that you could see the member names after voting).

 

This one started out that way.