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Amarra Conclusions - Thumbs Up!


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Do you listen to classical music Sanjay? What do you tell your customers when Amarra can't play gapless and breaks up the music?

 

I'm a strong proponent of Amarra and think Sonic Studio has done a great job. But this flaw is becoming more obnoxious as I increase my hi-rez classical library.

 

Wavelength Silver Crimson/Denominator USB DAC, Levinson 32/33H, Synergistic Research Cables and AC cables, Shunyata Hydra V-Ray II with King Cobra CX cable, Wilson Sasha WP speakers with Wilson Watch Dog Sub. Basis Debut V Vacuum turntable/ Grahm Phantom/Koetsu Jade Platinum. MacBook Pro 17\" 2.3GHz Quad Core i7, 8GB RAM, Pure Music, Decibel, Fidelia, AudioQuest Diamond USB Cable.

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Yes, as a trained (yet amateur) classical pianist, I listen to quite a bit of classical music. I totally agree with you. This is flaw, and I have mentioned it to Sonic Studio, as have several other users. Rest assured they are: (a) aware of the problem; and (b) working on a fix. There is a possible solution, which you will probably not like ...

 

You can concatenate the files of an album into one AIFF file. You would do so in a professional audio editor (e.g. Logic, Pro Tools). I use Logic. I'm not sure, but I'm sure Bias and a few other programs might make it even easier. What I do in Logic is the following:

1. Create a new project, setting the sample and bit depth to the level of the AIFF (or WAV) files.

2. Add all files to a stereo track (they appear as regions)

3. Ensure there is no gap between them (there are settings to make regions snap to one another)

4. Bounce the entire "mix" (really just the AIFF files played in order without gaps) to a new AIFF file.

 

I know this is not fun ... but it is one possible way around it for now. I'm not sure when the flaw will be addressed, but I would guess it will come fairly soon. I will continue to think about other ways around this ... There must be a more elegant solution I'm just missing ...

 

 

 

Sanjay Patel | Ciamara Corporation | New York, NY | www.ciamara.com

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From one who is considering, but does not yet own, Amarra, I'd appreciate knowing more about the problem Lars describes as regarding classical, saying "Amarra can't play gapless and breaks up the music?" Also, given that many hirez files are showing up only in FLAC, I think Dan asks a great question of how Amarra will support this format when iTunes doesn't. Sanjay, I certainly appreciate all your creative solutions, but I'm looking for the easy solution, as I don't want to become an audio editor.

Thanks all.

 

MBP13-128gb ssd using VoiceOver to hear the screen, iTunes, Ayre QB-9, McIntosh mx119 & mc207, Thiel CS2.4

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I dunno Lee

I have a good mate with a full dCS stack (lotsa $$) that happily uses $100 IC's with them and lamp cord for speaker cables into his Quads. He doesn't care about cables. Can't see the point in spending $1000 or so on them. He rekons (rightly) it sounds great as is and would rather buy music. And he can pretty much buy what he wants.

I used Amarra Mini with a Valabs NOS dac and certainly heard the difference cf iTunes. Would I have been better spending the $400 on a better dac or cable. Nope. Not even close. But that is me.

Best

A

 

Best Wishes

Andrew

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Play is better than iTunes but nowhere as good as Amarra mini apart from it's ability to play flac

 

regards[br]Michael[br]Mac mini & Amarra 3 | Weiss Minerva | CEC TL-51x | Octave HP500se | ADAM Tensor Delta active speakers. [br]MacBook Pro | V-DAC | Yamamoto HA-02 | ATH-W1000[br]AppleTV | DACMagic2 | Sugden A25 | ADAM HM2

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Lee, Thanks for the information! You said: "I think perhaps one of the simplest and easiest ways to get up to speed is just to buy a 120Gig SS drive and install everything on it (no spinning discs at all. The MLC drives can be had for about $300 or just under. This way you can install a lean (4Gig) version of the OS (Tiger) plus Amarra and about 70Gig or so of music tracks. For the rest of your music, either get a NAS drive or put your remaining library on an external FW drive. This way, you have the SS drive for critical listening, but also have long-term backup."

 

I've get a pretty large collection of cds, and have been using WAV files....70Gigs would fill up fast for the music I listen to frequently. If I put the rest of the music on an ext. FW drive for instance, I would just accept the fact they won't sound as good as the music on the SSD? I just want to make sure I understand what you're were suggesting.

 

Also, I see the discussion of FLAC and AIFF, I don't know hardly anything about these other file formats. I just want the best uncompressed audio file, which would you suggest that would be optimal for Amarra?

 

Thanks!

Chris

 

Ryzen 7 2700 PC Server, NUC7CJYH w. 4G Apacer RAM as Renderer/LPS 1.2 - IsoRegen/LPS-1/.2 - Singxer SU-1/LPS1.2 - Holo Spring Level 3 DAC - LTA MicroZOTL MZ2 - Modwright KWA 150 Signature Amp - Tidal Audio Piano's.  

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"$US500 for a piece of software is not much when compared to other components such as a Krell Amplifier, Martin Logan Speakers, Weiss Minerva DAC, chord interconnects etc."

 

$500 is quite a lot to pay for software, given that all the other alternatives are either FREE or approx. 1/10th of that amount.

 

With the utmost respect, I would also ask, what does loving music have to do with Krell and Martin Logan? I love music and I would NEVER buy anything made by Krell or Martin Logan, nor do I think I would enjoy music more if I did. Weiss, OTOH, yes, albeit the pro audio versions. :)

 

Musical enjoyment is not highly correlated to costs of gear to play music, in my opinion, and in my experience.

 

I don't understand why the fact that some will pay (what some might consider) absurd amounts for hardware or cables (the latter of which is the most often made argument justifying expensive software) with negligible increase in value is any justification for high priced software.

 

Frankly, we all suffer due to those that pay high prices indiscriminately, esp. when there is not some concommitant greater enjoyment (obvious to all). When this happens, a new higher price 'standard' gets set, thus creating a vacuum below that price that pulls other products of negligible improvement upwards. Thus we turn the law of diminishing returns into the law of 'vanishing' returns.

 

Even with cables, there is some real 'production' cost in making the cable, as well as cost of the 'unobtainium' from which each cable is made. Not so for software.

 

Apologies, hoping not to come across as disrespectful.

 

clay

 

 

 

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"I just want the best uncompressed audio file, which would you suggest that would be optimal for Amarra?"

 

AIFF would be my suggestion for the most optimal file format, as this is the native Mac OS file for uncompressed PCM, and as Amarra only runs on a MaOS at this time.

 

I've no experience with it, but some have reported issues with artwork and/or metadata using WAV files with iTunes.

 

clay

 

 

 

 

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"Even with cables, there is some real 'production' cost in making the cable, as well as cost of the 'unobtainium' from which each cable is made. Not so for software."

 

The cost of people's time for software development and support cannot be overlooked.

 

Also, Amarra does what no other software in the world can do right now. It integrates with the iTunes interface, sounds better, and handles sample rate changes automatically. Devaluing this capability by saying the cost should be closer to other software programs is kind of odd to me. I really don't get the whole price discussion. Things cost what they cost, that's life.

 

 

 

Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems AudiophileStyleStickerWhite2.0.png AudiophileStyleStickerWhite7.1.4.png

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"The cost of people's time for software development and support cannot be overlooked."

 

As a career software developer, I understand that more than most. :)

 

Perhaps my point wasn't clear. For each new unit of an expensive cable, there are costs to produce that specific unit. However, this is very negligible for distributing software, thus my 'not so for software' comment.

 

With software, there is much more potential for strategy in pricing. If we assume costs of $1million to develop & support a software program, you need only sell one copy for $1m, or to sell 1m copies for $1, or anything in between to cover your costs, and therefore anything above that is profit.

 

 

"Also, Amarra does what no other software in the world can do right now. It integrates with the iTunes interface, sounds better, and handles sample rate changes automatically."

 

And perhaps it is priced accordingly? ... but then what happens when something comes along that can handle sample rates automatically, integrates with iTunes (better than Amarra?) and also sounds better than iTunes?

 

As near as I can tell, Amarra is not so dramatically better than iTunes that everyone who listens to it will fork over $1500. Indeed, with Amarra being the current SOTA, I think this is also a testament to the sound of iTunes, which remains free (in the perverted sense that broadcast television is deemed 'free').

 

I own the full version of Amarra, but I still don't consider it a good value.

 

 

"Things cost what they cost, that's life."

 

We vote with our wallet every time we make a purchase. We can influence the price of products by purchasing them (or more precisely, by not). That was my point with avoiding indiscriminate spending (and its impact on others less financially well to do).

 

The jury is still out on Amarra, as far as I can tell, with respect to their pricing strategy and also with their 'beta' release strategy.

 

I, for one, despite not mentioning it yet here on CA, am growing more and more frustrated with what I consider to be simple, avoidable programming errors, which points to poor quality assurance.

 

For instance, Amarra will simply stop playing in the middle of a playlist frequently, requiring restart of Amarra to resolve the issue.

 

As near as I can tell - I only stumbled over this recently - this is due to Amarra not playing files that it identified as AIFF but then transferred back to iTunes to play albeit with the iTunes volume set to zero. IOW, the acclaimed integration with iTunes is still an achilles heel, even in the official 'snow leopard' approved download of 3162.

 

I don't think this problem encompasses all of the Amarra problems I've experienced, but until I get a handle on the cause of other issues, I'll refrain from speculating on them.

 

You see, I do understand that Amarra is in 'beta' mode and that a certain amount of uncertainty comes with that. Being someone (despite also being a software developer) who immediately installs any new software, I'm accustomed to this.

 

OTOH, the 'beta' pricing strategy could become an issue if, for example, the beta users 'discount' becomes a premium due to, for example, another competing product arriving to cause Sonic to rethink their pricing strategy.

 

FWIW, I am almost always willing to pay a premium for innovators, and almost always become a very loyal customer. I vote for innovation & great support with my dollars. OTOH, I think that the price for 'audiophile' playback software will decline over time, perhaps rapidly.

 

For this reason, I remain skeptical of Amarra's pricing strategy thus far.

 

Not only do I think their pricing strategy is fair game to be discussed, as an interested party - by dint of being a customer with $995 invested in continued success of Amarra - I would appreciate others sharing their thoughts (assuming you're willing to host such discussions). :)

[note: a word of thanks for your 'moderating' efforts, which I'm almost always in agreement with.]

 

In case it seems otherwise, I would like to see Amarra be successful, but I remain unconvinced that they wouldn't be more so if the product was less expensive EVEN WHILE they have seemingly have little competition.

 

respectfully,

clay

 

 

 

 

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Indeed, some might benefit more from an SSD than from Amarra (whereas the Amarra Mini price and a 128 Gb SSD are roughly comparable in price). That Amarra so strongly recommend an SSD - IN MY OPINION - is a tacit admission of such, but i'm sure not all will agree with that. Certainly, the non audio benefits of an SSD should push anyone 'on the fence' (with respect to a choice between the two) to selecting the SSD first. The non audio benefits from Amarra are non-existent on the Mini and consist of level meters on the full priced version.

 

Just wanted to report on the benefit of using an SSD with Amarra. If you already have Amarra but not running it on SSD, I would run out and get one right away! My system is a mac mini / 4GB / ext WD My Book FW800. A bigger soundstage and more defined imaging were the main improvements I found. With the SSD, the difference was a simple word - WOW! Those attributes were superimposed, adding on top much better dynamics, much more detail, smoother vocals, it was just so much more real and involving. So coming down to the value of the Amarra+SSD upgrades - the improvements I get per dollar is much more than all preamp or amp upgrades I've had in the past. Amazed, now I wonder if there're more upgrades I can put to the computer!

 

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I have compared SSD running Amarra and iTunes to the same tracks run on an HDD and I agree with your findings 100%. In fact, after hearing Amarra through SSD, i will not listen any other way. It makes that much of a difference.

 

Gary

 

Intel NUC NUC8i7BEH Roon Server running Audio Linux in RAM -> Sonore UltraRendu (Roon Endpoint) -> Uptone ISO Regen -> Singxer SU-1 KTE -> Holo Audio Spring Level 3 DAC -> Nord One UP Monoblocks -> Spendor LS3/5as | Music controlled via iPad (Power Conditioning: Audience adeptResponse aR12).  Twitter: @hirezaudio

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There are only two things I've aded to my system over the years that have really really improved the quality of digital reproduction - it now is probably '75% there' compared to vinyl. All that is missing is vinyl's ability to energise the air in the room, what the Minerva/Amarra mini combo gives is much better timing, and much better imaging. Certainly the combo works best for me, the Minerva probably added the most but was x10 the price of Amarra mini. Minerva - Amarra is certainly listenable, I didn't get to try Amarra - Minerva so I can't offer any personal observations on that. Amarra still has some way to go in terms of usability and stability but as it is software, this will happen. In my system, either was a much bigger improvement that any cable.

I'm interested in the SSD comments. Is that SSD for music files or for the OS? It makes it a pretty expensive exercise to buy GBs of SSD storage at today's prices

 

regards[br]Michael[br]Mac mini & Amarra 3 | Weiss Minerva | CEC TL-51x | Octave HP500se | ADAM Tensor Delta active speakers. [br]MacBook Pro | V-DAC | Yamamoto HA-02 | ATH-W1000[br]AppleTV | DACMagic2 | Sugden A25 | ADAM HM2

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I would be interested in understanding exactly how to use an SSD with Amarra and a Mac Mini.

 

I have been lurking here for a while but thought I would share my situation and experience.

 

Basic Set Up

 

I have a reasonably high end computer based outfit:

- Mac Mini (2008) 1.83ghz Intel Core 2 duo with 4Gb

- Amarra (full version)

- Snow Leopard/itunes 9

- Music files held on an HP EX470 home server and connected to the Mac Mini via ethernet

- Metric Halo ULN 8 ADC/DAC firewire interface

- Naim NAC 282 Preamp/NAP 250 Power Amp

- Verity Rienzi speakers

 

The Metric Halo ULN8 hardware is the same as Sonic Studio Model 4, and sounds phenomenal. My main basis for comparison is the Lavry DA10, which is itself a very good DAC (especially for the price ~ $1k) but the ULN8 brings a significant extra level of detail, dimension and air.

 

Uses of my System

 

I mainly use it for playing back a variety of music via itunes (mainly ripped CDs in AIFF, but also a smattering of downloaded high rez files (Linn, HD Tracks, B&W etc), and also digitized vinyl. BTW one neat program I use for creating automatic playlists is MUFIN for itunes, which creates very good lists based on DNA fingerprinting of the tracks in your library (better than GENIUS IMO, which works with a different MO)

 

The ULN8 is especially suited to the digitizing vinyl role as it has outstanding ADCs and mic preamps. It also has a built in high quality RIAA curve in its built in software, so I bypass any phono preamp and simply plug the outputs from my turntable (Well Tempered Amadeus with Dynavector DV3D cartridge) into the ULN8 and record at 24/176 or 24/192. I was using Pure Vinyl software (anxiously waiting for v3 which has improved functionality) but have recently been experimenting with Audiofile Wave Editor ($79) for recording, cutting the recording into individual tracks, and saving them to AIFF files, which can then be played in my itunes library. This works very well, although recording vinyl is clearly more time consuming than ripping CDs. One thing though, the recorded vinyl tracks sound as good as the original vinyl playback and usually way better than the equivalent CD (example, I have both vinyl and CD of James Taylor's "That's Why I'm Here" and the recorded vinyl is so much more engaging than the CD, even though the CD is not bad by itself)

 

Anyway, I think this is a great website and forum - I seem to check this more than any others these days.

 

A bit of a rambling thread, but - back to my original comment - I would be keen to experiment with an SSD drive but am unclear how to go about it. Does this mean replacing the internal Mac Mini HD or is there an external SSD drive I could use?

 

Thanks for listening,

 

Nigel

 

 

 

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Chris,

 

SSD's are expensive and generally much smaller than spinning drives, but their benefits are pretty significant for our purposes. That is why I suggest using them where possible. However, I realize that they are not realistic for library storage, so we have to choose a viable option for backup.

 

My response is is get an SSD that is as large as you can afford and fill it to the brim with your fav 70 gig or so of music. Some people are even installing two 120Gig SSD's, and still some using them in RAID (0) config for larger storage. You can do any of these. I chose to use 1 SSD for now and wait for the prices to come down. In a year I'm sure you can get 250Gig or more of SSD for a reasonable price. But for now, I use the SSD for critical listening and my NAS for background music. The NAS and spinning discs are fine for this purpose and do sound good, just not as good as SSD.

 

Hope that helps.

 

/Lee

 

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Nigel,

 

We are about to post new pages on our site, www.amarraaudio.com, that go into this topic of SSD's and computer tweaks a bit more so that all can enjoy the benefits.

 

It is interesting to see people finally looking at the computer as a stereo component and not a working computer. I have seen so many audiophiles with super-tweaked out systems who then take their office laptop with Amarra and plug it in, expecting amazing results. Certainly, the music is better right out of the gate with this configuration. But we are chasing the quality of vinyl here, not trying to beat iTunes. So all changes to the computer will help and are necessary if you want sound that is close to analog.

 

Finally, IMO we are way further along than 75% there. In several scenarios I have heard the two compared under controlled conditions and computer sound IMO has definitely approached analog playback to a significant degree. To be sure, there are now subtle advantages to both. But the gap has finally been rendered insignificant by many recent developments such as Amarra's audio engine, use of SSD's, and the paradigm shift of the computer used as dedicated audio "component".

 

/Lee

 

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"fill it to the brim with your fav 70 gig or so of music"

 

Filling an SSD drive to the brim is not my recommendation.

 

There is a well documented, but still fairly unknown, issue with SSDs which has to do with 'erasing' of data no longer needed. The short answer (as to a solution) is to maintain a reserve of unused data to prevent the equivalent of 'gridlock' from occurring - thus the recommendation NOT to fill an SSD drive to the brim. Apparently some SSD manufacturers are maintaining a 'reserve' of sorts, by advertising a drive as actually having less capacity than it does (now there's a switch!).

 

For those interested in the technicalities, you can check the anandtech site for the lowdown. Basically the problem is that SSD controllers(?) can write in very small-size blocks (4kb), but can only erase in something like 512kb chunks. Data is not actually erased until it is needed for a re-write, so the problem does not manifest immediately, as file 'deletions' just mark the data as unwanted. The problem comes much later when a block needs to be erased for a new write.

 

For this reason, and also that the next generation of SSDs & their software will likely improve on this issue significantly, I plan to purchase a small SSD (64Gb or 128Gb) for (my new Mac Mini) now and continue to use an external drive for most music files.

 

The fact that music files aren't often manipulated is a significant factor in their favor if you do put them on as SSD. The question remains how much of a 'reserve' (in the form of unused space) is required to sustain the speed (and audio quality) improvements over the lifespan of the drive. The effects of the degradation (if any) will likely occur subtly (and therefore practically unnoticeable except through comparison) over time.

 

OTOH, if you plan to upgrade your SSDs with each new generation, you can probably safely ignore this, as no one seems to know how long it might take for these potentially deleterious effects to surface.

 

enjoy

clay

 

 

 

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Most of the SSD implementations I have heard involve installing just one SSD and no spinning disc at all in the computer, although use of an additional (spinning) drive is more practical for storage purposes and sounds great. I just prefer a machine that has no sound and no moving parts. Would be awesome to see a Mac with no fans at all for this purpose.

 

My preference for storage is an external FW drive or NAS.

 

The OS should be installed on the SS drive, along with any apps you may run. And I prefer to store my fav songs on the local SS drive as well. As for the rest, I point iTunes/Amarra in the direction of my external drives.

 

From there, we'd suggest making several tweaks to the computer as covered on countless entries and articles on this great site.

 

/Lee

 

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Clay, good call on that. I use the term "brim" too loosely and have had SS drives fail on me, perhaps due to over-filling? One needs to use these SS drives for the OS, and so a certain amount of space should be left free for the OS. I guess I just assumed this.

 

Thanks for the clarification.

/Lee

 

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