Amarra Conclusions - Thumbs Up!

[ciamara]

Has anyone compared the two?

 

[cfmsp]

 

"...if you promise to be nice, I would love to host you over here and have you put some people to the test with a blind A/B comparison."

 

That's very gracious of you Sanjay. I hope to be able to take you up on that.

 

Clay

 

[Stretch]

Do we have a rough timeframe for Apple Lossless support in Amarra and will this also be pushed down to Mini? Thanks.

 

[ciamara]

Clay ... It would be my pleasure. Certainly, if you ever make it to the New York area, you will be welcome here. Peace!

 

[ciamara]

I posted this on another thread, but wanted to make sure there is no confusion:

 

iTunes does NOT truncate 24bit files to 16bit during playback. I won't say where I heard the "truncation" claims, as I don't want to throw anyone under the bus. But I did hear it from a manufacturer, and it came via email. The point of mentioning this was to see if anyone had tested this claim. As it turns out, Chris has, and it is false.

 

FYI, I believe the false assumption came from the way iTunes handles higher resolution files when converting from one format to another. If, for example, you add a 24bit/96kHz WAV file to iTunes and convert it to Apple Lossless, you will preserve the 24bits and the sample rate. If you then try to convert back to WAV or AIFF with iTunes, the 24bit word length is truncated to 16. iTunes simply does not have a setting for 24bits.

 

The easy workaround is to avoid doing this conversion in iTunes. Instead, use a program like Max (sbooth) for Mac. I'm quite sure there are others out there for the PC.

 

[ciamara]

That should have read "...how it works best"

 

And how exactly did I take credit for Silverlight's suggestion re: RAM Disk? I provided a link to that very thread ...

 

[cfmsp]

"iTunes does NOT truncate 24bit files to 16bit during playback."

 

Nice job on the correction, Sanjay.

 

I was going to correct you on this yesterday, but given that I had posted quite a few already, it just didn't seem fair.

 

clay

 

PS, You might want to be careful about propagating potentially incorrect information (even in the form of a question) in the future when the information in doubt is potentially derogatory to a product in competition with one that you sell.

 

I'm just sayin'

 

 

 

[minzyman]

Testing it now. Will let you know. Should be soon.

 

/Lee

 

Sonic Studio, LLC

 

[audiozorro]

As long as we have your ear

 

1. What future features are promised to users that buy the full version of Amarra?

2. What are the forecasted (not guaranteed) release dates of the above features?

3. What future features are promised to users that buy the Amarra Mini?

4. What are the forecasted (not guaranteed) release dates of the above features?

5. Is the upgrade price for going from Amarra Mini to Amarra $600 or $1100?

6. Did Sonic Studio offer full version Amarra users soundBlade for digitizing vinyl and is that still the case?

7. And if so, does the demo version of soundBlade allow one to try out the capability for digitizing vinyl?

 

[cfmsp]

 

Sanjay asks (in a delayed update to a post far upstream):

 

"And how exactly did I take credit for Silverlight's suggestion re: RAM Disk? I provided a link to that very thread ..."

 

You didn't take credit for it. I was responding to Lee's use of Silverlight's work as an example of a significant contribution you've made to CA.

 

specifically, Lee said.

"just look at the RAM disc post a few hours ago w/ helpful links attached. And quite frankly, this is what the community needs, people out there willing to spend their time testing different configurations and reporting back."

 

And I responded:

"For the record, Silverlight has already posted the helpful link that Sanjay posted.

Anyone who is paying attention has already seen this info. Someone else spent their time testing."

 

Lee simply chose the wrong example rather than any of a number of possible choices that would have supported his point.

 

clay

 

 

 

 

[ciamara]

I was actually wondering how it suddenly became possible to edit upstream posts, because previously that option was not available. Bygones ... I think we are all good now, right?

 

[cfmsp]

 

Sanjay,

 

Yep, we're all cool.

 

I only knew about your edit due to an email subscription to that particular thread.

 

Clay

 

[ciamara]

... and then we can all move on with our lives.

 

I can appreciate that some people don't like hearing from dealers or manufacturers of equipment for fear of the bias it introduces. And I am struggling a bit over how best to handle this. On the one hand, we get flamed for providing commentary on products we carry. On the other, we receive tons of emails from people asking us to post our findings on DACs and Amarra. Would it help if I added a disclaimer to my signature that highlights exactly what Ciamara does? I have nothing to hide.

 

Honestly, I feel that so long as I am totally transparent about our role as a dealer, then I am not misleading anyone. As a professional, I spend a lot more time working with and testing gear than hobbyists. Right now, I have a Berkeley Alpha, a Weiss DAC2 and a Lavry DA11 in our showroom, and I am going to start testing them more thoroughly. I plan to report back my subjective findings because several people have asked me to.

 

I can appreciate that some people on CA would rather take the advice of hobbyists only. There are many others (myself included), that like to talk to the people who are actually implementing the gear in a wide range of environments. The administrator of this site receives advertising dollars for gear he reviews. And pride of ownership drives other people to make bold claims about gear they own. In audio, there really is no such thing as objective feedback. The "truth" lies somewhere in the diversity of opinions. Wouldn't you agree?

 

Finally, I think it is important to give a little more credit to people (like us) that work tirelessly to test gear in many configurations, only to share the findings freely with everyone. We don't carry products we haven't thoroughly tested. What would be the point? If we push something that isn't good, we end up alienating people and losing the chance to build long-term relationships with our clients. So, while I completely understand your reservations, just remember that there is some good that comes with all of this. We are passionate about achieving the very best in sound, we believe in what we do, and hopefully it shows.

 

I hope you have all enjoyed this thread, and thank you for your participation! Everyone included.

 

[rayhil]

Ultimately, we recognize that all of this is Chris's call as he runs a great and honest site. There is a bit of an irony running through this and other threads, however, that I feel the need to observe. Most all of us go to dealers (and most non-dealers on this site make such recommendations) to test a variety of equipment. Meaning no insult to any audio dealer (or any other dealer of any product) it's rare, if ever, that a dealer recommends a product he doesn't sell. We all go to a Ford dealer only if we want to buy a Ford, not a BMW. At least I, for one, also rarely buy a product from the "hard sel guy" who simply pushes a product down my throat. Rather, informing me of the qualities of his products, without denograting others' products, usuallly makes a sale.

Applying this to this thread, I think full, up front disclosure is a good way of creating transparency. Then, providing information, not a sales pitch, helps me learn. I've certainly seen sales pitches here and, frankly, they've turned me off to the other postings of such salesmen. I hope nobody takes this personally, because it's not meant that way, it's only my personal observations.

 

[cfmsp]

 

"Finally, I think it is important to give a little more credit to people (like us) that work tirelessly to test gear in many configurations, only to share the findings freely with everyone."

 

First off, your findings are shared freely in the same sense that broadcast TV shows are 'free'.

 

As a sarcastic counterpoint to your comment, let me say - I think it's time that people who come here and use the resources (e.g. ask for and receive help) and then leverage that use for monetary gain start giving credit (i.e. money) to those that actually do share their findings freely with everyone, i.e. the community.

 

That sounds ludicrous on the face of it (and probably is), but it should provide some insight into the potential for conflict here when a money-making enterprise such as yourself barges into a thriving hobbyist community in a high profile manner. [note: No other 'company' here posts with anything like the volume you do. The one that did was dismissed.]

 

Re my 'community' reference, internet groups which are successful become communities. For communities to grow and flourish, its members need similar motivations and goals and interests. Sure, Chris makes money from this endeavor, but that's because he's providing the resources that the community needs. That others would blatantly make money from the community - either through harnessing knowledge gained here for their own use, or through self-promotion, goes against the spirit of successful internet communities.

 

Let's compare it to the open source software movement. Hobbyist software developers can create software programs that would require a company like Microsoft to produce. They do this for free. If Microsoft could profit from it, the effort would die.

 

The 'financial' arrangement is that no one who uses that software can charge for it, or even charge for software built on top of it. It's free.

 

Likewise, the community here at CA can offer more test configurations than you will ever be able to. And these are the efforts that are being shared freely. None of us gain financially, but you do. IOW, you'll make money from things you learn here, and also just from having access to customers, and in return, we get (your) advertisements (in the form of posts), and your opinions (which are tainted by your financial interests).

 

My interests in pushing back on your promotion and the level of involvement is to maintain the community. In the end, it is Chris' decision as to what is allowed and what is not. We won't know what Chris might have said to you privately, but the only thing he has said 'on record' (that I'm aware of) is that you were flaunting the policies, and this was BEFORE your apparent increase in volume of posts and new threads.

 

Given Chris' absence of public comment, my guess is that he is watching to see how things turn out without intervention, perhaps even thinking, let the community decide.

 

The community at CA is one of the best on the internet in my opinion, and certainly has no peers within audio. It's clear that you have passion about the topic, and have things to add. What's not so clear is what impact will the serious participation of someone with financial interests have ON the community. The community is much more important than any one of us, excepting Chris, of course.

 

clay

 

 

[gsquared]

Clay,

 

I certainly appreciate your contribution to this forum as do I with other members, including Sanjay.

 

I have to respectfully disagree with your assertion to Sanjay that he *takes* more than he contributes.

 

If Sanjay is as passionate as it sounds like is, he has likely done far more testing and experimenting than most of us. I don't know Sanjay personally, but I've been around enough dealers who are extremely passionate about what they do and they are like mad scientists when it comes to new technology and testing every possible variation to extract the maximum quality from it.

 

And the fact that Sanjay is involved in this community and asking questions and sharing his findings, suggests to me that he is passionate about high end audio and computer audio. Again, this is just my observation.

 

From what I can see, the number of CA members who have done extensive testing of dozens of different configurations is in the minority. So your assertion that Sanjay gains more than he contributes - I disagree with.

 

You stated...

 

"None of us gain financially, but you do."

 

With all due respect.... so what?

 

Do you have a problem with people expanding their knowledge and profiting from what they learn? You seem to have a problem with this. I would ask yourself this - why does it matter what someone else does with the knowledge they learn?

 

Then you stated..

 

"My interests in pushing back on your promotion and the level of involvement is to maintain the community." So are you suggesting that Sanjay's involvement here somehow wrecks this community? Again, with all due respect, I think Sanjay's involvement in this community does FAR more good than bad. Personally, I don't think he has done anything to hurt this community.

 

Peace

Gary

 

 

[cfmsp]

Thanks Gary for your comments. They are much appreciated, as we need to hear them.

 

Just to put my thoughts in a bit of perspective, I could as easily go 180 degrees and suggest that, Chris willing, we could create a totally unique, symbiotic relationship with a 'vendor' such as Sanjay. Ironically, I was about to add this to my post when I saw your comment - which came as a result of thinking about the possibilities inherent in his sharing of 'space' and 'time' re his upcoming Multi DAC test.

 

My (admittedly self-assigned) role in this, as I said, is to first insure that there is no harm. It's great to hear from someone as passionate as you appear (in print) that Sanjays' contributions FAR exceed his transgressions in your view.

 

Gary says:

"I have to respectfully disagree with your assertion to Sanjay that he *takes* more than he contributes."

 

I didn't (intend to) assert that, although I'm aware that often my viewpoints come across as more negative than intended. I pointed to the (likely, in my view) potential conflict when someone enters a community and starts to profit from it, without sharing in kind.

 

Clay said:

"None of us gain financially, but you do."

Gary responded:

"With all due respect.... so what?

 

Do you have a problem with people expanding their knowledge and profiting from what they learn?"

 

It's rather obvious that I have a problem with it IF it changes the dynamics, collegial atmosphere, and other intangibles of the community.

I've seen it happen. I've 'cautioned' JR about this as well. In my view, the problem truly begins when the volume of responses from 'vendors' drown out those of the low volume individual posters, then we lose diversity, dissenting opinions, etc. Chris wants more active participants, rather than simply lurkers. (you'll note that Chris rarely has time to post much these days, but often welcomes first-time posters).

 

For example, I don't think it appropriate or makes sense (other than financial sense) for Sanjay or Jesus (or anyone else profiting from access to this community) to respond to newcomer's open ended questions with suggestions that point them in the direction of their own products.

 

Perhaps that's just me.

 

Indeed, as I understand it, Chris' policy is that vendors are allowed to answer specific/direct questions about their products.

 

 

Gary says:

"So are you suggesting that Sanjay's involvement here somehow wrecks this community? Again, with all due respect, I think Sanjay's involvement in this community does FAR more good than bad. Personally, I don't think he has done anything to hurt this community."

 

Gary, the answer to your question is NO, we don't yet know, which was stated just after the sentence that you refer to, to wit:

 

Clay said (in earlier post)

"What's not so clear is what impact will the serious participation of someone with financial interests have ON the community. The community is much more important than any one of us,"

 

Very respectfully, I thank you again for sharing your thoughts here.

 

We need more views on this, in my opinion.

 

My personal 'issue' is just the sheer volume & length of Sanjay's passionate missives, while admitting/understanding that I suffer the same.

 

enjoy,

clay

 

 

[Forehaven]

Getting back to Amarro, I was at the Symposium and was very much in concurrment of most of the attendees. Amarro sounded best on the G5/Lynx AES/Pacific MicroSonics DAC setup. I'm glad to hear they made a mini version, and hope they do the same for the DeNoise software for us still who haven't digitilized their vinyl.

 

I was a bit confused about how to use the SSD affordably. Know I understand, get a small SSD only for OS, Itunes and Amarro, and leave music files on standard drive. Or, as Sanjay and others noted, the other option is to use Ram for Itunes and Amarro only, leaving the OS and music on a reg. spinning drive...true? If so, does Itunes just find the music files in the Itunes Music Folder, then plays that particular song/album off the SSD or RAM? Just trying to get this straightened out a bit. I know Chris, you mentioned it at the Symposium, but I didn't quite get the implementation part of it

 

My opinion regard. Sanjay is he seems genuinely interested in sharing his experiences with Amarro, so I have no problem.

 

It's great that Lee joins in now and then too! Lee I met Jon and the other gent from the Symposium and both we very nice and informative, both on AMarro, and also showing me the DeNoise, DeClick in the Vinyl to Digital room. That was very impressive too. That's the product I'd like to see become a bit more affordable, Amarro and DeNoise and DeClick in one program. My weak link now is a dated '99 BAT VK5i preamp. So I'm still away from buying Amarro, but once I get my gear 'optimized' (another thing I agree with Sanjay), I'll get the full version with the higher sampling rates.

 

Excellent thread,

Chris

 

 

 

[minzyman]

Chris,

 

Good to hear from you. Chris Conniker may give you a different implementation on the SS drive, but I think perhaps one of the simplest and easiest ways to get up to speed is just to buy a 120Gig SS drive and install everything on it (no spinning discs at all. The MLC drives can be had for about $300 or just under. This way you can install a lean (4Gig) version of the OS (Tiger) plus Amarra and about 70Gig or so of music tracks. For the rest of your music, either get a NAS drive or put your remaining library on an external FW drive. This way, you have the SS drive for critical listening, but also have long-term backup.

 

Conversely, you can buy a smaller SS drive and add a spinning drive as well, I just wonder if this is counterproductive to the SS drive? Some people are exploring the benefits of a RAM drive. But I can't imagine you would see any improvement in sonics from this; perhaps a faster startup speed when launching apps. But sonics? Anybody have any experience testing sonics from a RAM drive vs an SS drive?

 

/Lee

 

[cfmsp]

 

Lee,

When will Amarra handle ALAC files?

Also, do you have plans to support FLAC at the same time?

 

I only have AIFF and ALAC, but someone asked recently about FLAC for iTunes, so I think that if Amarra could handle FLAC that might be an advantage.

 

Thanks

Clay

 

 

[minzyman]

Clay,

 

Jon has asked me not to try and disclose an exact date yet, but ALAC will be very soon, and FLAC will follow in the not too distant future.

 

Thanks for being patient and hanging in there.

 

I personally would never use any compression format, even if "lossless". Why not just use aiff? Storage is cheap and your cpu won't have to uncompress on the fly.

 

/Lee

 

Sonic Studio, LLC

 

[DanRubin]

Lee, how can Amarra support FLAC if iTunes doesn't?

 

Dan

 

[ciamara]

Hi everyone! I had a gentleman in our showroom yesterday to test drive Amarra and the Model 4. (I will reserve comment on my subjective findings on the sound quality until after September 19th -- the date of our NY Audio Rave). I asked him to bring his laptop along so that he could test his own music collection with Amarra and the Model 4. And on his Macbook Pro, he had an SSD, onto which the OS was installed. Not only did it sound great (we listened mainly to the new Beatles Remasters), but is was incredibly fast! If you are like me -- constantly tweaking and playing around with things, and hence restarting your machine often -- the SS Drive really is "nice to have." The rebooting time is dramatically faster, even on Leopard 10.5. I might just proclaim that is not just a "nice to have," but a "need to have." I am seriously considering purchasing one for our Mac Pro here.

 

[cfmsp]

 

"Why not just use aiff? "

 

Probably because I'm too lazy to sort through duplicate versions of files after 'creating AIFF' versions.

 

I think the 'rocket science' (aka technical) term for this is 'inertia'.

 

But seriously, my music gets played on an iPhone, iPod, & AppleTV, each of which have limited hard drives. ALAC is the compromise over having AIFF and more compressed versions.

 

clay

 

 

[ciamara]

I know I was not asked ... But I was a WAV guy once (until I broke my library by only moving the data files). Then I went AIFF. Then iTunes was broken -- stopped supporting tags for 24bit AIFFs in version 7.x or 8.x (can't remember). So I went ALAC to be safe. Then went to AIFF again for Amarra, and thankfully iTunes tagging works again....

 

All this to say, I feel the inertia! But once you tip the scale in favor of AIFF, it doesn't feel so bad. Here is what I have been doing. I started with all ALAC files. I use iTunes to convert to AIFF for redbook material. I use Max to convert to 24bit AIFF files (as iTunes doesn't support this directly). It is annoying, but I do it as needed. I figured, why bother converting everything ... I'll just do so as I want to listen. If doing this directly in iTunes, it is a cinch to select the album, right click, create AIFF version, and when it is done, the original ALAC files are highlighted. I then delete and move to trash. Maybe I'm stating the obvious .... Maybe more like probably ....

 

Anyhow, AIFF is a standard that has been around a long time, and so my hunch is that it is among the safest for archival purposes. I always wonder how the ALAC algorithms change over time. If you look at an ALAC file's info in iTunes, you will see what version it was encoded with. Not sure what this means, if anything. I just feel better about myself with AIFF, and for no real concrete reason other than it has been around a long time. I also notice that ALAC files are only about 30% smaller than AIFFs on average. So to save space, I just make a habit of deleting music I have that I don't like anymore instead ... Some music just doesn't stand the test of time, so why not keep a library one can be proud of! (Sorry for the rambling.) Have a nice weekend everyone!