Amarra Conclusions - Thumbs Up!

[ciamara]

I really think you need to lighten up. If you don't like the posts, you don't have to read them. I have received a lot of positive feedback from people regarding my posts, so it appears that you are the in the minority. Sure, I stand to gain if I sell some product -- that much is clear to everyone here.

 

People clearly want to know about Amarra, understand how it works and how to get it to work for them. It seems you would prefer to exclude people (like me) who have spent hundreds of hours working with the product, trying different configurations and putting it through multiple tests, from providing feedback.

 

[ciamara]

We have a representative from the company here. What does it hurt to ask the question? I want to know if it is true, as it will inform the decision on buying a solid state drive.

 

[cfmsp]

 

you want me to lighten up?

 

I'm only exercizing my right to share my opinions here.

 

clay

 

 

[cfmsp]

 

 

The rules (on most audio forums) are that a dealer/rep is only allowed to respond to direct questions about their products. You have continually flaunted this rule since you started posting here.

 

For one dealer to ask a rep a question on CA about a product that they both make a living from is DISINGENUOUS circumvention of the rules, as I understand them. FULL STOP!

 

Clay

 

 

 

 

 

[ciamara]

Let's just agree to disagree then.

 

[minzyman]

Just a few words about promotion. First off, although I have never met Sanjay, I think he has supplied some excellent info for us in numerous past posts: just look at the RAM disc post a few hours ago w/ helpful links attached. And quite frankly, this is what the community needs, people out there willing to spend their time testing different configurations and reporting back. There's just so much new equipment and new software builds coming on the market, we need people to make sense of it all.

 

I too often find myself talking not as a rep but as an impassioned audiophile, excited by what I see and wanting to share it with others. Sanjay it seems is no different in this respect. Hopefully some are benefitting from the correspondence.

 

/Lee

 

Sonic Studio, LLC

 

 

[cfmsp]

 

 

"People clearly want to know about Amarra, understand how it works..."

 

Okay, Sanjay, please tell us how it works.

 

Jon couldn't.

 

 

clay

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[cfmsp]

 

 

"just look at the RAM disc post a few hours ago w/ helpful links attached. And quite frankly, this is what the community needs, people out there willing to spend their time testing different configurations and reporting back."

 

For the record, Silverlight has already posted the helpful links that Sanjay posted.

Anyone who is paying atention has already seen this info. Someone else spent their time testing.

 

Clay

 

[gsquared]

I'd like address the comments about using a G5. I wholeheartedly agree that, as Lee stated... "the G5 has no limitations when it comes to interfaces or pairing with existing modern dacs, not any more so than a current model."

 

But the keyword is "existing".

 

Apple has just released Snow Leopard which no longer supports the PowerPC processor/architecture. What this means is that going forward, software companies and hardware companies will eventually follow suit and drop support for PowerPC machines. Why would any software company or hardware company continue to create Universal binaries when Apple computer is no longer supporting PowerPC? Call me crazy, but I think it makes no economic sense. My guess is software companies will continue to produce Universal binaries for the next year or two for legacy support, then you will see all future development and releases of software and/or drivers for hardware "Intel only."

 

So if you invest even $500 now on a PowerMac G5, yes it will sound good right now, but any advances in software and hardware will inevitably be designing first and foremost to support Intel-based machines. So essentially by buying a G5 today, you are buying a temporary solution that will NOT be supported beyond the next year or so. I don't know about anyone else, but computer audio is on the cutting edge and the last thing I want is my computer to stand in the way of my getting to enjoy advances that companies like Sonic Studio, Weiss and others are making available.

 

Gary

 

[cfmsp]

 

"I'd like address the comments about using a G5."

 

in another thread, only today, Andrew says (regarding his new G5 purchase)

 

"The PowerMac is a monster - goodness me I had no idea they were so heavy....and big. And noisy...way noisy.

Sorry to say that little experiment was a failure - it's back on ebay: time for a NAS and my MBP."

 

For the reasons that both Gary and Andrew mention, I would personally NOT recommend that anyone who doesn't already have a G5 purchase one for music playback UNLESS they need the PCI slot to install a Lynx AES card.

 

clay

 

 

 

 

[minzyman]

Gary,

 

You are absolutely right and it is the policy of Sonic to support existing/current models first, PowerPC second.

 

At the same time, I like that people are out there exploring all number of models and configurations in search of the audio nirvana: analog sounding digital. I want to support their efforts and agree that they are on to something. But this is a niche of users and most will use current equipment.

 

And many are doing this with great success too. The current Mac Pro quad core machines are awesome, and probably overkill for mere audio playback, even hi-rez. The point of the last few entries was simply that there are some cool trends going on out there with these older G5 machines and also that one need not buy the latest and most powerful Mac to play beautiful music. Nor dive head-first into Snow Leopard. But if you like to tinker on a Mac, then you certainly have that option.

 

/Lee

Sonic Studio, LLC

 

[ciamara]

Gary,

 

You are right about that. Several mastering engineers feel that the Lynx PCI card sounds better than the newer PCIe card, and for that reason, several have stayed with the older card. This sort of thing happens all the time in the pro audio / studio world. There are people that just don't want to be at the leading edge. They prefer to wait for months until everyone else has tried and tested everything, and the bugs have been fixed, etc.

 

I personally like to try the newest technologies and don't mind tinkering around a bit ... but that's just me. If you buy the older G5 today, you will become obsolete sooner than you might on a brand new Mac Pro. Some people might like the $500 price tag and figure it is worth the tradeoff.

 

But again, you are correct to point out that this is programmed obsolescence. I think the support will be there for more than a year -- possibly two or three years -- but eventually it will disappear.

 

EDIT: Whoops ... busy thread! Sorry for what is now redundant.

 

[minzyman]

I agree that obsolescence at some point takes all computers to the junk yard. So why did I opt for a used G5? Well for one thing, I wanted (yet another) music server for testing and didn't want to spring for a new machine. I paid $300 for a dual 2.0 G5 from Craigslist. A student photographer was throwing in the towel and going into Law School: she needed to sell her barely used machine fast. I snagged it and plugged my Lynx AES 16 card in immediately, plus a cheap SS drive by OCZ. Now, I have what several audio engineers I know of insist is the best configuration to date for state of the art Mac-based playback. It sounds amazing and will play great music for me for years to come, regardless of what Apple does.

 

Is it really the best configuration? Who knows? I bet for the money it is. But you can tweak many different Macs and get great results with Amarra and several different Dacs. The point is to have fun with it and get back to us about your findings. But I would suggest readers at least stick with a system. I didn't go out and buy components randomly. I spoke to engineers who are doing this stuff professionally and took their suggestions.

 

/Lee

Sonic studio, LLC

 

[minzyman]

Funny that you should say that. I spoke with Berkeley Audio about this at CES last year and was told that pci-e tries to cram too much information across the bus, and that noise is produced. I bet the guys at Lynx would disagree. But there you have it. I'm no engineer and can't confirm or deny. Does that make it gossip? Clay?

 

Yeah, I stopped trying to keep up with the latest updates and hardware years ago. You have to pedal fast to play that game, and I just want my music to sound as good as it can. For my MacBook pro, which is a work machine and a test machine for new builds (using FW into the model 303, then Alpha Dac, I will probably install Snow Leopard.

 

/Lee

 

 

 

[ciamara]

Yes, I can confirm that you can use the price of the Mini player towards an upgrade to the full version (or hardware).

 

[renkan]

Lee, I'm completely with you on the synergy part, only that I assume Amarra as a software is less interdependent with other units of a system, if it is at all given that it is the source. To me in theory, Amarra should give more benefit "holistically".

 

But all these are irrelevant right now. Let's say that we did have the $20k MBL dac to play with, or the most resolving dac on the market if you will, does Amarra deliver more to the listener than an upgraded cable (at any price)? If you didn't notice I'm trying to get opinions for the benefit of Amarra, as my believe is that it should do better than cables of at least the same price if not the astronomically priced ones! I trust this kind of information would be useful to a lot of readers as I trust most would not buy Amarra with the intention of changing any hardware at the same time, although we do that sometimes for our ever technically advanced computer systems and demanding OS'.

 

[Soundproof]

Since iTunes itself doesn't play any music, but is a content organizing software package, I'd recommend that one also copy the software that actually plays content over to the virtual RAM disk ...

 

[Brite]

Renkan, In my system (Halcro DM58 amps, DM 10 pre, JM Alto Utopia Be Speakers, modified Benchmark DAC, macbook pro with intel ssd) I noticed a definite sonic improvement with Amarra that would surpass a $ 400 upgraded cable. It is not the difference you get when you make a major upgrade to speakers or amp, iTunes is not that bad. That said on Sanjay's system which I heard briefly and which has a very different sound to mine I wasn't sure whether I preferred Amarra or iTunes. I find it very difficult to judge new components in other peoples systems/rooms, there are too many variables. Bottom line I think that you really have to try it in your system/room to see if it works for you.

 

[cfmsp]

"But there you have it. I'm no engineer and can't confirm or deny. Does that make it gossip? Clay?"

 

Lee,

I'm not an engineer either, rather a software developer by trade. I only track Mac/Firewire gear to the level of detail required to have an intelligent answer. Eloise, OTOH, will have a more informed view. I think she's writing a book - at least she ought to be. I'm just a passionate fan for Mac / asynchronous DACs / Metric Halo / Firewire.

 

I will share my reaction to your comments. Were I a Berkeley DAC customer, or potentially so, I would listen to their views on the AES card where they disagree with Lynx. You can probably guess the most obvious reason why. I'm more skeptical than the average bear when it comes to someone tooting their own horn.

 

As for the use of the word 'gossip', I have a totally abnormal view on the topic. It's all just gossip/opinions/beliefs to me. I certainly trust your belief that you heard the comment, and I trust that you are truthful in relaying it here. To my mind, these sort of unplanned comments (with little or nothing to be gained) are more trustworthy than anything ever put on paper (and that includes signed depositions in a court of law) and also more trustworthy than anything potentially motivated by greed (aka money), even if only subconsciously. I don''t even trust myself when I have something to gain, although I try very hard to provide a balanced view if I am 'selling' something. In normal discourse, I'm usually the balancing opinion (aka the dissenting view). If I'm promoting (say, the use of Firewire) against the majority view (S/PDIF and it's variants), I rarely feel required to provide balance (esp. due to lack of interest/gain in the outcome).

 

respectfully,

clay

 

 

 

 

[cfmsp]

"Lee, I'm completely with you on the synergy part, only that I assume Amarra as a software is less interdependent with other units of a system, if it is at all given that it is the source. To me in theory, Amarra should give more benefit "holistically"."

 

In my opinion, you are right to suggest that Amarra's benefits (due to being software) do not rely on the synergistic effects of say, amps & speakers, or cables & anything connected to them.

 

This is probably also a good time to say, the effects of Amarra (over other software) PALE in comparison to the kind of changes one can get with changing speakers and what not.

 

In my opinion, the only truly Amarra specific 'synergistic' adjustment to your system would be the increase in RAM suggested (by Sonic), for the simple reason that Amarra relies on iTunes running at the same time, which increases the processing footprint.

 

Sonic also recommends use of SSDs, but that's not a requirement, nor would it only benefit Amarra based systems, so it's not synergistic, so much as it is good digital audio practice, assuming a relatively sorted out system to begin with.

 

Indeed, some might benefit more from an SSD than from Amarra (whereas the Amarra Mini price and a 128 Gb SSD are roughly comparable in price). That Amarra so strongly recommend an SSD - IN MY OPINION - is a tacit admission of such, but i'm sure not all will agree with that. Certainly, the non audio benefits of an SSD should push anyone 'on the fence' (with respect to a choice between the two) to selecting the SSD first. The non audio benefits from Amarra are non-existent on the Mini and consist of level meters on the full priced version.

 

Getting back to Amarra, personally I find the results much more subtle than are normally described. I - very humbly - challenge anyone who claims they are 'night and day' to do some blind testing. I've not heard of a single case of blind testing.

 

That said, given the reports, I'm willing to believe that some could possibly pass a blind test - but probably mostly/only with very highly resolving systems.

 

There will no doubt be people that will disagree with that comment - and there may be people who can tell a difference through a Bose or similar quality. That doesn't mean that the majority CAN, nor that they SHOULD be able to.

 

Getting back to your question. I would humbly suggest that getting your system in it's best shape (for your budget) would be the first priority, and then listen (as was mentioned by Lee and myself earlier in this thread) for yourself - using the iLok 30-day trial demo. You will NOT likely get benefits of Amarra (that justify the cost) until your system is at a very high level.

 

I personally would spend the money for Amarra (and have) BEFORE spending the equivalent amount on cables, but I only buy cables used (and therefore broken-in and cheaper), and thus far there's no real market for 'used' copies of Amarra. [Note: this may change if/when Audiofile Engineering releases a competitor to Amarra. Their competitor- Wave Editor- to Soundblade - which is a very close second in sound comparison by Barry Diament and others - costs one twentieth (1/20), so a competitor to Amarra would indeed probably be very cost competitive.]

 

But I would not spend more on Amarra than I'd spent on a DAC, for example. And I'd spend something like eight to ten times more (of the full version) on speakers, before I'd worry about something like Amarra. In my view, Amarra should be the cheapest major 'component' of any system, excepting cables.

 

Buy the best DAC you can afford - and if it's Firewire, you can spend $15 on a well shielded cable, and buy Amarra Mini with the money you saved by not having to buy an S/PDIF cable (which are much more sensitive due to the nature of the interface).

 

 

Enjoy,

clay

 

PS, Sanjay, please note that there are no direct questions about/of/to/for Amarra in this post.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ciamara]

Clay is right ... Listen first, then decide. I will be the first to admit that not everyone will hear the differences. Many users feel the difference is very obvious, whereas others feel it is subtle. To get the most out of Amarra, it is best to try it using an approved configuration and listen through a sufficiently resolving system ... or better yet, on several different ones. In the end, you should always be the judge.

 

And Clay ... if you promise to be nice, I would love to host you over here and have you put some people to the test with a blind A/B comparison. I can pick out the effects of Amarra nearly every time. Perhaps it is the nature of the system in here. Horn-loaded beryllium compression drivers are very revealing.

 

[renkan]

Thank you Vincent for sharing your sys config and experiences. Surely Amarra will sound different in different systems and rooms, so I'll never make that kind of comparison.

 

On a separate account, did you find your macbook pro running very hot for this purpose? I'm using a powerbook now and deciding whether I should upgrade to a macbook pro or the mini, both options as a dedicated music player.

 

[renkan]

Thank you as well for the analysis, it is very helpful. The SSD option in opinion defeats the purpose of computer audio at this point given their small capacity, I would bet most members of CA have libraries exceeding 128 GB long ago...so option is out for me regardless of how good they may sound...

 

[cfmsp]

 

 

Renkan,

 

simply putting your OS and music playback software (iTUnes, etc.) on the SSD seems to provide the desired results. Actually, a 64 Gb SSD would probably be adequate.

 

I doubt that even Chris has all of his music files on a SSD.

 

 

Clay

 

[renkan]

Oh! If even just that makes a difference I would definitely give it a try, thanks!