Amarra Conclusions - Thumbs Up!

[kana813]

Lee-

 

"Running Amarra in the configuration discussed certainly will work and should improve upon the sound of iTunes."

 

As I told you in my 8/14/09 email, it didn't.

 

"quieter interface/cabling"

 

Please tell me how a digital cable generates noise?

 

Unlike an AES/EBU cable connected to a sound card, a Toslink cable isolates the DAC from PC PSU noise and won't pick up RF noise.

 

I can't put the approved AES soundcard in a Macbook, there are no USB SPDIF converters on your approved list, and the FW digital interface products on your approved list all cost more than the Amarra software.

 

"a streamlined (quieted) Mac with 4GB or more RAM, use of SS drive"

 

My Macbook has 4GB of RAM and a SS drive.

 

"an approved DAC"

 

Your Alpha Dac I isn't on the approved list.

 

"why not at least use the best content possible from that laptop?"

 

As I posted, I used 24/96 files ripped from Classic Records DADs. 24/96 is highest FS, a Macbook's will output. None of the USB devises

on your approved list can do anything higher.

 

Good luck with Amarra.

 

Aloha,

 

Dan

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Audio_ELF]

souptin was asking about "approved DACs" (and I think that Sonic do themselves use the term, but in actual fact the part that is "approved" is not the DAC but the interface. minzyman's reply was evidence of this. As he states - the Lynx AES16 and the Model 303 interfaces are both used to provide AES interfaces which can then be used by ANY DAC, therefore the Berkerley Alpha doesn't need to be on the list of approved DACs (neither does a Chord QBD76, or a Aberdeen TacT S2150, or a Naim DAC or an Wadia Decoding Computer, etc, etc.). Only where the DAC interfaces directly with the computer via FireWire / USB / PCI(e) bus does it need to be "qualified". And as souptin comments show, some non-qualified devices (Apogee Duet) seam to work, along with the built-in interface (SPDIF and speakers).

 

As it was explained to me in an email from Jonothan when I was enqiring, pretty much any USB interface will work, so long as it supports 24/96 - this explains why the Cambridge DACMagic works via optical, but not via USB.

 

Hope this helps

Eloise

 

 

 

 

[Audio_ELF]

I assume that as Amarra bypasses Core Audio, that it uses the output device in an "exclusive mode" kind of way - in this way I assume that "system sounds" and sounds from Safari, etc. don't get mixed with the output from Amarra?

 

Does Amarra have a way to select the device separate from the Audio Midi panel?

 

Eloise

 

[cfmsp]

 

 

I'm not aware of anything like 'exclusive' mode for OS X.

 

AMS does allow you, however, to send the 'System Output' to a separate device than the 'Default Output' (intended as the primary output device).

 

I keep System Output set to 'Built-in' output, which keeps email & other noises from being routed to the DAC.

 

clay

 

 

 

 

 

[rayhil]

Lee, you wrote: "I have both a Macbook Pro and a G5 tower." You go on to describe your tower setup. Could you do the same for your Macbook Pro setup and describe the differences?

 

[ciamara]

Oh boy .... Well, the "good" news is that Sonic Studio are aware of the problem and will be addressing it this year. The "bad" news is that in order to enjoy this music, you have to do some renaming. What I might suggest (assuming you have the disc space) is to create copies of all the songs with such characters. Then rename the copies and delete all the extra fields using iTunes to modify multiple songs at a time. But keep the original files somewhere, so when the bug is fixed, you can quickly get back up and running. Hope that helps.

 

[ciamara]

Let me take a stab at this ...

 

1. Running Amarra in a non-approved setting (i.e. by using the internal sound card of a Macbook) might improve sound quality as compared to iTunes alone, but there is no such guarantee. I tried this on my Mac Pro for fun, and I found there was a slight improvement with Amarra when using the internal sound card, but nothing to jump up and down about. Only with the right hardware did I get a big improvement. Certainly, you can't draw any conclusions when comparing Amarra in a non-approved setting to high-end equipment properly configured. That, I believe we have established here.

 

2. Digital cable and noise. AES/EBU is the professional standard for digital cable. It runs at 110Ohm, provides a very robust signal and can be run for very long lengths (300m+) without accumulating any appreciable noise/interference from the outside environment. SPDIF is the consumer format and runs at 75Ohm over an RCA-like digital coax cable or over optical. Yes, optical/Toslink can transmit SPDIF (i.e. 2-channel audio data). Noise enters the equation from the environment -- as a rule of thumb, you generally should not run more then 20-30 feet of high quality SPDIF or optical cable, or you are asking for trouble (which I realize is not a problem in your setup). The other more significant source of noise is at the interface -- i.e. where your cable connects to the Macbook. Here, timing issues and jitter will degrade the signal before it is even transmitted down the pipe. That is the main source of the problem, not isolation. A good audio interface would solve this problem.

 

3. You commented that "Unlike an AES/EBU cable connected to a sound card, a Toslink cable isolates the DAC from PC PSU noise and won't pick up RF noise." That is not quite true. First, computers don't output AES/EBU natively, so you'd need a digital interface (e.g. a Lynx AES16 via PCI or a Model 30x via Firewire) to get an AES/EBU digital signal, which would then be sent externally to a DAC. You can't get much better isolation than that. Second, you are conflating the issue a little. For short cable runs, both SPDIF/Optical and AES/EBU can be implemented to perform extremely well. Isolation is provided by virtue of an interface that generates a robust digital signal. Oftentimes, these interfaces have many output options, including SPDIF/RCA, SPDIF/Optical, AES/EBU among others. Sorry if that's not clear, but to suggest that AES/EBU is more susceptible to RF noise is just plain incorrect.

 

4. Glad you have a streamlined Mac and are using high res files. Good luck and happy listening!

 

 

 

[minzyman]

Regarding the above interfaces and noise, this is my understanding as well and you have discussed these issues elegantly. AES is a music industry standard that is time-tested and Amarra should work well with practically any Dac through this interface. However it is not for Sonic Studio to suggest any one interface or device, but to try and offer a list of approved components. This we are working on. In the meantime, we'd refer you to a dealer in your area who has tested many configurations, and of course to Chris' great site where he discusses options/synergies as well.

 

We suggest you go with a time-tested and approved setup that sounds the best and allows you to listen to the music. In a field of fast evolving standards, products and developments, this just makes sense.

 

/Lee

Sonic Studio, LLC

 

[Audio_ELF]

Just to clarify, there is nothing "special" about how Amarra interfaces with the qualified DACs and interfaces, it's just a list of the devices that have been tested?

 

Is there any special integration between Amarra software and the Model Four hardware?

 

Eloise

 

[audiozorro]

I am pretty sure that I can get other sounds to my DAC while Amarra is playing. I believe you have to shut down unnecessary applications and turn off sounds where you have that capability.

 

[Audio_ELF]

This is what confuses me... Audiozorro states "I am pretty sure that I can get other sounds to my DAC while Amarra is playing. I believe you have to shut down unnecessary applications and turn off sounds where you have that capability" yet according to other posts Amarra avoids CoreAudio - so where do these two signals get mixed into one??? Or does not using core audio mean something else?

 

Eloise

 

[minzyman]

Eloise,

 

Great posts earlier. Thank you for the clarification to the readers on AES and other topics.

 

Regarding noises from Amarra, I am not sure what noises you are talking about, pops, noise between tracks? If you are talking about system sounds, you should go into Audio Midi and ensure that system output is set to built in output, not to your Dac or external I/O device.

 

Second, ensure that iTunes volume is turned completely down since we are using Amarra's gain control. If you still hear sounds, you should contact Jon at Sonic Studio via the Amarra site.

 

Hope this helps.

 

/Lee

Sonic Studio, LLC

 

[minzyman]

Hi Rayhil. Certainly I will describe my Laptop setup.

 

My 17" MacBook Pro (Intel, bought 6/2008) has four MB RAM but does not have SS drive in it as I use this machine for work (hardly ideal, I know). I know for a fact that SS drives offer a smoother, more analog sound, perhaps due to less jitter, and are well worth the expense. My G5 has an SS drive, as does another machine that I built. Thus I'd recommend installing a 120Gig internal SS drive and keeping some music there as well. Chris has discussed this topic in previous articles on this site and SS drives were shown at his Symposium to sound smoother and more natural. My main library is of course stored on a Thecus NAS drive over ethernet.

 

I listen to Amarra running on top of iTunes playing uncompressed music only (wav and aiff). Playback is output via FW on my laptop to the Sonic model 303 I/O, which converts to AES and is output to my Alpha Dac. I use the Dac as a preamp.

 

To streamline your Mac, there are a few easy things you can do and I hope that Chris can post this article some time in the future for us all, as it sure would be a great read. ;-) On the Amarraaudio.com site, we discuss things such as unplugging your ethernet cable (network noise) and turning off email browsers and other apps when doing critical listening. This is easy enough. Not all of us can dedicate a computer to just music playback. We suggest you disable Spotlight, Sleep and Energy Savings, as well as Time Machine on your media drives. There are other devices you can disable of course, but that is a lengthy topic requiring some serious Mac OS comfort. Perhaps Clay can shed some light on this?

 

Hope this helps Rayhil.

 

/Lee

Sonic Studio, LLC

 

 

 

[gsquared]

Eloise, Amarra software itself does not avoid CoreAudio. I believe it's the digital interface (interface drivers specifically) that are either CoreAudio devices or not. Sonic Studio's Amarra DACs and Firewire interfaces bypass CoreAudio, therefore not CoreAudio devices.

 

Lee, can you chime in on the issue of bypassing CoreAudio?

 

Thanks

Gary

 

[audiozorro]

This is the first time hearing of the problem with the Apogee Duet regarding the noise that occurs when switching from track to track. Are you hearing this switching noise with Amarra and not iTunes or do you hear this noise with both. I had the Apogee FW Mini DAC for about a month and there was never any track switching noise.

 

[minzyman]

Eloise, Gary,

 

Thanks for the inquiry. I am no engineer, but understand the following:

 

Here is the story.

 

Amarra uses Core Audio for the following things (Only).

1) to get and set the Sample Rate of the device

2) to get the Name of the device to display in the User Interface

 

That is it.

 

Amarra uses the HAL (Hardware Abstraction Layer) - which is below Core

Audio

1) to send the buffers back and forth to the device.

 

HAL is similar to ASIO - buffers are passed back and forth to the

hardware.

Every Audio Device must be a Core Audio device and must support a HAL

interface.

 

That is it.

 

All Audio Hardware, unless proprietary, must have a Core Audio

interface to work on the Mac with applications.

 

does this help?

 

/Lee

Sonic Studio, LLC

 

[rayhil]

Lee, thanks for your very informative answer. I'm still researching my system to join the computer audio world.

 

Your system description raised a question for me. You say: "My main library is of course stored on a Thecus NAS drive over ethernet."

In the Amarra FAQ on optimizing a Mac, it says: "Use an internal or external drive for media, NAS drives may effect sound quality."

 

Have you experienced any problems using your setup in this regard.

 

Also, I'm not techy enough to want to tackle the Thecus route given what I've read. Any comments welcome on Drobo (potentially using Droboshare) as an alternative.

 

THanks

 

[minzyman]

Rayhil,

 

The NAS does not provide optimum playback as does an SS, so for critical listening I'd suggest an SS drive that is big enough to hold your OS, a few Music related apps —Amarra comes to mind— and 60 or so Gig of your favorite Hirez recordings in an iTunes Library. This is what I do and it's great. The rest of my 500 Gig or so of music is stored on a NAS drive and I can draw from it and save tracks to the SS drive as needed.

 

For casual listening, you can play back music over ethernet from your NAS and many will think it's fine for background music. Great for long term storage too. And I've heard good things about Drobo, although I'd ping Chris Conniker about this unit. I believe there's an article somewhere in CA about it.

 

I have not experienced any technical issues from the NAS, just sounds a bit less smooth and is slightly grainy.

 

/Lee

Sonic Studio, LLC

 

[StephanLJ]

Hi everyone

 

Since three hours Snow Leopard and Amarra are working together great. I cannot hear a difference from Leopard sonically. Here in Germany we could buy it a couple of hours earlier than our American friends.

 

Greetings and have fun

 

Stephan

 

[rayhil]

Lee, thanks again. While this may well be an optimal solution, having to move music back and forth between a SSD and external storage seems to take some away from the convenience of computer audio. While I want to maximize music quality, not sure I want to have to continually move music back and forth (or onto and off of the SSD) to get the best quality. I'm more likely thinking it makes more sense to use a non-nas solution for storage and using it directly as the source. Any thoughts on this?

 

[ackcheng]

May be sonic studio can make ram loading part of the amarra's feature. Just need to load the next song on the playlist on ram before loading them on to the engine

 

[ted_b]

development plan. I discussed our use of RAMdisk with him and he liked that idea too. But I have only 4 Gb of RAm so I don't want to make RAMdisk too big currently (right now big enough to run iTunes and Amarra, and throw a couple tracks in there for demo a/b purposes).

 

[souptin]

Preloading into ram before playback has been mentioned for a future release. Hopefully the Sonic folks will clarify / confirm.

 

Frankly I'm still confused about whether or not Core Audio is bypassed. The itunes 'echo', for example (when itunes volume is accidentally or manually turned up when Amarra is playing). Surely it is Core Audio that mixes the sounds together before sending to the interface? Somehow I doubt that it would be the Amarra sound engine that does this. Can anyone confirm whether or not this happens with Sonic's own interfaces?

 

[ciamara]

I can't confirm, but I believe what you are hearing when you have both turned up is the Core Audio layer from iTunes alongside the Amarra HUD layer playing underneath. Core Audio is merely a set of code that translates down one layer to the HUD layer that Lee mentioned earlier. Presumably the time taken to process this is responsible for the slight latency and is the reason the iTunes version plays a few milliseconds behind the version going through Amarra. But again ... this is just an educated guess.

 

[ciamara]

Thanks for letting us know! I did a CLEAN install of Snow Leopard OS 10.6 last night (i.e. reformatted my home drive and installed a fresh copy of OS X). My machine really runs fast now! Though to be fair, I did dispose of a lot of junk that was weighing down the machine before. I digress ...

 

I installed Amarra 3162 and it seems to work reasonably well. If you are having trouble installing build 3162 (if it fails for some reason), you can try installing it in pieces. In the first pass, install everything except the Amarra Computer Music Player. Then run the installer again and check only the Amarra Computer Music Player. Then restart, repair permissions and launch. There will be an update coming out soon, so if anyone is having issues, rest assured the should be addressed quite soon. Happy listening!