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Amarra Conclusions - Thumbs Up!


ciamara

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Hope this help.

 

Amarra(ver.3170) loaded on a Macbook with 4 gb ram and a 60 gb OCZ Vertex SSD connected with a Monster Cable iCable.

 

PWT connected with an Audience Au 24 AES/EBU.

 

Both were connected to my Aberdeen Signature TacT S2150 which powers a pair of Volent VL-2s. The TacT has multiple digital inputs, so no cable switching was necessary. Levels were matched.

 

PWT is plugged into a RSA Haley. The TacT is plugged into a RSA Duke.

 

Files were ripped using DVD Audio Extractor or Audiograbber on a

Dell Optiplex 745. 24/96 files were burnt onto DVD-R with Nero 9.0.

 

Top to bottom the PWT sounds more natural and relaxed. Soundstage

is more open and 3D.

 

I agree that it will be interesting to hear the rest of the digital components PS Audio is planning.

 

 

 

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As I mentioned on the other forum, this is hardly a fair comparison. You are relying on a very low-quality DAC in the Macbook. You are running analog from this low quality DAC into your system. A fair comparison would be to use hardware approved by Amarra connected by FireWire or USB. Only then can you draw conclusions.

 

Sanjay Patel | Ciamara Corporation | New York, NY | www.ciamara.com

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This is getting funny ... we are simultaneously talking on two forums ... feels like a parallel universe. Ha ha! I will repeat what I said before. Please correct me if I have misinterpreted, but I think we have an issue in this comparison.

 

The Monster cable he mentions is an analog cable. It is connected to the low quality DAC that comes standard with the Macbook via a 1/8" mini-stereo jack and sends an analog signal (already degraded by this point) into the Tact DAC. I looked up the Tact DAC, as I am not familiar with it. This DAC accepts analog inputs.

 

So, for the Amarra side of the comparison, the digital data is being converted to analog by the Macbook's cheapo DAC, then sent as analog to the Tact DAC, where it is presumably converted back to digital before being converted to analog again (?). No wonder the sound is not pleasing. You can't use Amarra without an approved DAC connected properly. This comparison is not valid.

 

Please try using a proper interface with your Macbook and have that feed your analog system directly, without going through the Tact DAC.

 

One slight improvement that you could try for fun and for very little money would be to buy the special optical cable for the Mac Book. You may or may not know this, but the 1/8" minijack on the Macbook actually outputs both analog and digital. So you could run SPDIF/Optical using a special cable directly to the SPDIF RCA input on the Tact DAC. While this is NOT approved for Amarra, and therefore still isn't a fair comparison, it should sound a lot better than what you have. The shortcoming of this setup, though better than what you have tried, is that the Macbook digital interface is subject to a lot of jitter, so unless you have a very good DAC that is good at jitter rejection, you will only get average results. Better than what you have tried so far, but still only average. To get the best out of Amarra, you have to use the right hardware. For a Mac Pro, that means approved PCI, Firewire or USB hardware. For a Macbook, approved Firewire or USB only

 

Sanjay Patel | Ciamara Corporation | New York, NY | www.ciamara.com

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Agreed, the cable difference (assuming the USB connection is not Async) AND the USB versus AES/EBU implementations on the Tact are two potentially significant factors that would compromise a comparison between Amarra/Macbook and a PWT.

 

Clay

 

 

 

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We all have different audio components/setups/listening rooms and ears so many posted comments should not be taken as gospel. For the benefit of all CA readers perhaps we can further this discussion on Amarra Conclusions with the DACs on the CASH List as a basis for comparison. I believe these DACs have been thoroughly reviewed and the reviews from one common reviewer (Chris) are posted here.

 

Assuming the CASH DACs represent the best or the best within their price range or just excellent DACs, is fair to judge Amarra by using any of these CA recommended DACs? I am often reminded by the CA reader who has the excellent Esoteric transport/DAC and feels that computer audio does not better his system. That may or not be true and most CA readers are unlikely to have both Esoteric and Sonic Studio DACs for a side by side comparison.

 

 

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My interpretation of kana's setup is that he is using the DAC in the Tact for everything, feeding the digital outputs from the PWT and the Macbook directly to two separate digital inputs on the Tact. Of course, if the MacBook is feeding Toslink and the PWT AES/EBU, it may be not be entirely fair, but it's not a useless comparison.

 

Mac Mini 5,1 [i5, 2.3 GHz, 8GB, Mavericks] w/ Roon -> Ethernet -> TP Link fiber conversion segment -> microRendu w/ LPS-1 -> Schiit Yggdrasil

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True ... It is not a useless comparison, but it is hardly fair if we are using this comparison to pass judgement on Amarra vs. the PWT (even if we are indeed talking about using the digital connection from the Macbook to the DAC). I agree with audiozoro. For the sake of discussion, we should really use equipment that people are familiar with, or better yet we should at least make sure the comparison within the manufacturer's recommendations.

 

Here, the PWT is connected as the manufacturer recommends. Amarra is not. Amarra is not approved for use with the internal sound card. If any of you have the ability to do such a comparison, try Amarra using the internal sound card of a Macbook or Mac Pro and then compare that to an approved setup. Amarra is currently approved for use with the following interfaces (directly from their website):

• Amarra Model Four and Model Three

• All Sonic Studio Audio Interfaces (302/303/304/305)

• Benchmark

• Empirical Audio

• Lynx AES16e PCIe (Mac Pro)

• RME Fireface 400 and 800,

• Sonicweld Decoder and Diverter

• Wavelength

• Weiss Engineering Vesta, Minerva, AFI1, ADC2, DAC2

• More interfaces are qualified each week.

 

I'd love to hear the feedback.

 

Sanjay Patel | Ciamara Corporation | New York, NY | www.ciamara.com

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sunjitwhy-

 

I shared my set up in a PM with Lee at Amarra Marketing, his comment was:

 

"That sounds like a solid test and I am surprised you didn't hear any results. You should have."

 

IMO, the market for DACs and digital interfaces is changing too rapidly to invest thousands in addition to the cost of the Amarra software right now.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I don't want to sound like the poster boy for Amarra, because I am not. I love the product, but I totally accept that there are others out there, and some might sound better. To each his own.

 

Honestly, you could get great sound with Amarra using their Mini player and a USB or Firewire interface, and you don't have to invest a lot. Why not try this:

- Amarra Mini - $395

- one of the lower-priced DACs on the recommended list that connects via Firewire to the Macbook

 

If you use the recommended hardware, you could actually have the entire setup, starting at less than $1500, which is less than half the price of your PWT. I'm not saying Amarra is better or worse than PWT. I could easily accept that PWT sounds better. But like I keep asking ... please give us the full details of your signal path. ted_b has merely indicated that you may be using either USB or Toslink. Which is it? How is it connected? Please be more specific. I don't think there is a USB port on your DAC. Is there? Either way, if you are indeed using the internal sound card in your Macbook, the comparison is simply not valid.

 

That said, if we can help you improve your listening experience, let us know how we as a group can do so. Thanks!

 

P.S. Perhaps you can help me understand your logic on obsolescence, though. You'd rather invest $3000 in the PWT, which is a digital box that, like any DAC or digital audio interface, will become antiquated? Amarra is software that will be continually upgraded, so that end of the equation is relatively safe from becoming a relic (I said relatively, not guaranteed). I think your argument holds with all things digital, not just DACs and audio interfaces. I mentioned earlier here that my replacement cycle with digital gear is 1-2 years. I just accept that, and set my acceptable price threshold accordingly. Not surprisingly, I chose a Lavry DA11 at $1450 instead of something more expensive. Do others have the same thought process?

 

 

Sanjay Patel | Ciamara Corporation | New York, NY | www.ciamara.com

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sunjitwhy-

 

I don't need a DAC. There are no analog preamps or amps in my set up.

 

There are no USB or Firewire digital interfaces on the CASH List for under $1500.

 

Thanks for your offer, but I don't need any help.

 

I didn't invest $3K in the PWT.

 

You obviously don't know much about PS Audio's new digital products.

Suggest you read Paul McGowan's posts at:

 

http://www.psaudio.com/ps/forum/viewthread/95/P0/

 

I'll be returning the iLok for a refund, so this will be my last post on the subject.

 

Good luck with your Amarra sales.

 

 

 

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"I mentioned earlier here that my replacement cycle with digital gear is 1-2 years. I just accept that, and set my acceptable price threshold accordingly. Not surprisingly, I chose a Lavry DA11 at $1450 instead of something more expensive. Do others have the same thought process?"

 

Hi Sanjay - I certainly don't operate this way and I think you are short-changing yourself. Considering the systems you put together and your digital component decisions, I think your DAC will always be a weak link. When I purchase a DAC I do a ton of homework and try to select components, designed by great engineers, that have longevity. For example I think my Berkeley Audio Design Alpha DAC will be wonderful long after my two years with the unit is over. In fact I am close to one complete year with mine. Also, some colleagues of mine are still using Pacific Microsonics Model Two DACs and will purchase another one as soon as the chance presents itself. This DAC has been out of production for years.

 

Anyway, just my opinion Sanjay :~)

 

Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems AudiophileStyleStickerWhite2.0.png AudiophileStyleStickerWhite7.1.4.png

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Well said, Chris. I probably was a little hasty .... I can appreciate that more expensive DACs sound better and have longevity. I used to drool over the Prism DACs, and they have been around a while. I have been hesitant to spend aggressively on a DAC until I have the chance to hear the differences.

 

BUT!! Thanks to a fellow NY audiophile, I will have the opportunity to try the following DACs in our showroom on September 19th:

- Berkeley Alpha DAC

- Weiss DAC2

- Lavry DA11 (which I currently have)

- Sonic Studio Model 4 (assuming it arrives on time)

 

I am really excited to hear these, and can't wait to report back. I will do my best to be unbiased, so please feel free to probe me when I do. Just don't flame me!! ha ha ha

 

 

 

Sanjay Patel | Ciamara Corporation | New York, NY | www.ciamara.com

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Kana813 says:

"I've already provided complete details of my set up.

Read ted_b's post."

 

well, not exactly...but...we know a Monster iCable was used from the Macbook and we know that Macbooks only support USB, Firewire, and TOSlink mini outputs. The TacT DAC does not support USB or Firewire. Therefore, TOSlink is the only possible interface available to connect the Macbook, unless a Firewire or USB converter was used.

 

As to the fairness and relevance of the comparison, each interested reader will need to judge for him/herself.

 

I will say this - if I were TRULY trying to evaluate how one very expensive setup compared to another, I wouldn't use TOSlink as an interface.

 

...and I wouldn't use a $15 Monster mini-TOslink cable in one setup, and a cable that costs as much as Amarra in the other. :)

 

http://tinyurl.com/Kana813-cable

 

but, maybe that's just me.

 

clay

 

 

 

 

 

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Clay-

 

Wasn't going to post in this thread again, but you're distorting facts.

 

Mahalo for searching my username, but the 5 meter Au24 cable, I reviewd here: http://tinyurl.com/Kana813-cable, five years ago was not used with the PWT. I used a 1 meter Au24, which I purchased for under $200.

 

Since you probably have never heard a TacT digital amp, much less an Aberdeen Signature TacT S2150 with an upgraded Toslink RX module, you have no way of how much difference there is between it's Toslink and AES/EBU inputs.

 

I guess I could have spend $1895. for, Weiss AFI1 Firewire Interface, so I could "TRULY" evaluate a $1500. software program using the same AES/EBU cable, but I decided to use what I had on hand when the I got the opportunity to try the PWT.

 

Aloha.

 

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"Mahalo for searching my username, but the 5 meter Au24 cable, I reviewd here: http://tinyurl.com/Kana813-cable, five years ago was not used with the PWT. I used a 1 meter Au24, which I purchased for under $200."

 

Thanks for the clarification that you're now using only a 1 meter cable, but even this still costs upwards of $400 for 1 meter retail, which costs more than Amarra, albeit only the Mini.

 

I stand by my comments that (to have any relevancy to other readers here) a comparison should not rely on a plastic Toslink cable made by Monster, nor even a TOSlink interface, in conjunction with gear deemed by some to represent the SOTA (i.e., Amarra, PWT).

 

It's pretty well established in audiophilia (from my perspective) that TOSlink connections do NOT perform at the highest levels, irrespective of any particular DAC's implementation. I can't recall a single instance of a review where TOSlink was the best digital interface, and the vast majority of reviews (i've read) deem it not to sound as good as Coax S/PDIF or AES/EBU.

 

In no way does that invalidate your choice, nor was that my intent, although one might still argue, as sunjitwhy did (and quite persistently), that you didn't really give Amarra it's best chance to show it's capabilities due to not using a DAC that has been 'officially' approved.

 

Thanks also for the clarification that your DAC has an upgraded Toslink module.

 

Probably you were not expecting the scrutiny that followed your post, despite the rather vocal support Amarra has here (myself NOT included).

Fortunately, you were posting here on CA and on AC, as opposed to AA.

 

For the record, I did NOT search on your name, as a close review of the link will indicate. I linked to the Google cache, which highlights the search terms.

 

I was searching on "Audience AU24 AES/EBU digital cable" to see how expensive it was in comparison to the Monster icable. Your Audiogon posts popped to the top of the searchlist. It seems to be just a standard interconnect with XLR ends, yes?

 

Best of luck with your PWT.

Apologies if I offended you.

 

Clay

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Hello all. Time for me to chime in here with a few basic suggestions from Sonic Studio.

 

Although the PS Audio equipment is said to be very good, any comparison between systems needs to be fair and equitable. Running Amarra in the configuration discussed certainly will work and should improve upon the sound of iTunes. A better configuration for comparison, as suggested by Sanjay, would take into consideration quieter interface/cabling (FW, AES via soundcard), a streamlined (quieted) Mac with 4GB or more RAM, use of SS drive, and an approved DAC. Secondly, was the test material being played thru the systems high resolution material? If not, it really should be since the benefits deliver a much more analog-like sound. If I read correctly, you were comparing time tested CD playback thru your PWT versus output from a laptop: why not at least use the best content possible from that laptop?

 

Computers as we all know are noisy, cost-effective, general purpose machines that were not really developed for audiophile testing purposes. Yet, with some tweaking and proper configuration/setup of approved components, a solution can be developed that we feel vastly improves upon the typical “digital” sound that many are used to from computers.

 

At a recent Digital Symposium in Oakland CA for example, there were several properly optimized systems that were compared in an apples to apples configuration by true professionals and under ideal listening conditions. The systems were all dedicated music servers streamlined just for sonic quality. The results were truly startling from several of these systems, one of which was a proprietary model costing I believe more than $15k. Amarra may well have been the choice of many of the listeners, and this from a cost-effective G5 configuration at that. The important thing to remember is that the system be carefully considered and quieted in every point along the signal path, where possible, and that quality, approved Dacs be used.

 

That said, there are an infinite number of possible combinations of components with several models of Mac. For the most smooth, truly analog-like output from a computer you either need the resources to test several different combinations of components properly, or the will to sit down and listen to someone who has this ability: someone such as Sanjay or your local dealer.

 

Another ear opening experience for me was last year’s CES, where I was able to demo the best of analog (Tape Project Material) vs. a properly configured music server compared in an ideal environment. To my ears the two sounds were so close, with very subtle differences from both, as to be virtually the same.

 

Ultimately the good news is that truly analog-like sound from a computer can finally be achieved: a sound close enough I believe that vinyl aficionados need to accept the inevitable, no matter how many LP’s your collection boasts.

/Lee Mincy

Sonic Studio, LLC

 

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Thanks for the information, minzyman.

 

Can you give any more details on your approval process for dacs?

 

The reason I ask is that the list of approved dacs on your website is quite short, and from my own experiments with (non approved) dacs I haven't been able to be completely sure if they 'work' or not. It can get confusing!

 

For example, my Cambridge DACmagic appears to work via optical toslink, but not via usb. My Apogee Duet appears to work via firewire. Even the internal speakers on my laptop appear to work!

 

When I say they 'appear to work' I mean that the meters light up, and the EQ can be used, but I am not convinced that there is any difference in sound quality, beyond the obvious difference made by using extreme EQ settings. Obviously I mention the laptop internal speakers as an extreme example, I'm not seriously expecting them to transform into the Albert Hall when I click on the Amarra on button...

 

My question is more about whether Core Audio is being completely replaced/bypassed by your sound engine in these configurations, or whether it is possible for Amarra to perform EQ but then somehow feed the data back through Core Audo, thereby losing some of the benefit of your sound engine.

 

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Souptin,

 

Thanks for the questions. Just so you know, we are working all the time on approving new Dacs and we test them when they come in from the manufacturer. Currently testing several Dacs that we hope to add to the list. But this takes time.

 

Perhaps your DacMagic has an issue: I'd write to them and inquire: perhaps they have a fix. We certainly would love to get a unit for testing. As for the Apogee unit, we have not approved it because of noise that occurs when switching from track to track. If we find a solution for this, it will be approved.

 

I have both a Macbook Pro and a G5 tower. For the latter I use FW out to Model 303 I/O then AES to an Alpha Dac. The G5 employs an internal Lynx AES16 soundcard (w/ current firmware and drivers) output via AES to the Alpha Dac. Amarra works smoothly on both units. The difference I hear from standard iTunes is obvious: iTunes plays music in a flat plane that exists between the speakers and it sounds grainy, although some have said iTunes may have more punch in some tracks. For me, Amarra brings out the music into the room, paints a much wider, deeper environment and discernable instrument locations, smooths out the sound to a more analog-like liquidity, amongst other things.

 

Just for comparison and to appease my curiousity, I built myself a Zalman fanless pc with internal Lynx AES souncard. This system puts out a much more digital sound that for me is not nearly as musical, although extremely revealing. Sound is etched and very digital.

 

I hope you keep exploring systems/configs and update us on your findings with the DacMagic and Apogee units.

 

Per your core audio question, we do not employ core audio at all and use our own engine.

 

Hope this helps.

 

/Lee Mincy

Sonic Studio, LLC

 

 

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