Occam's razor in audio

[esldude]

https://medium.com/starts-with-a-bang/fixing-occams-razor-fc610ca13136

 

Might be a bit of a read for some. Still only a few pages. Might at first not seem all that relevant to audio. The payoff is near the bottom of the short article. The bit about what 'simple' means in the context of some complicated modern science questions.

 

Occam's razor of course: “All things being equal, the simplest explanation is usually the best.”

 

But what is simple? How do you apply this to more complex topics to determine what is actually the simpler of two possibilities?

 

from the web linked article:

 

The answer is not what most people expect. It’s not which explanation requires the fewest parameters or fewest number of inputs. It’s not which explanation allows you to get to the conclusion the fastest or in the fewest number of steps. And it’s not even the one that works the most universally.

 

Instead, the simplest explanation is the one that requires the fewest number of new assumptions beyond the ones we already know must exist. In other words, the simplest explanation conceivable is one that only relies on the set of known, established scientific knowledge.

 

I can already hear the objections to this being raised. Read the article as they are dealt with in it.

 

As I see it applying to audio discussions on CA it seems very pertinent. Over and over again, when the known parts of audio, electrical engineering, and the psychoacoustics of hearing point to something not being likely, we get the repeated complaints that not everything is known, that future improvements will prove the folly, that you are closed minded if you insist on using known principles only etc. etc. Well this article provides the reasoning to do just that, to stick with the known knowledge until you have really good reason to do otherwise. Doing so is the best bet, the best odds of being correct.

 

When electrical engineering says cable doesn't have a sound, measurements confirm the model, and the model is based upon current physics, then anecdote and conjecture that not everything is known is not the high percentage bet to make. Ditto for burn in. Ditto for high resolution sounding better. Ditto for jitter being so pervasivly audible. Ditto for bit perfect playback software being audible. Ditto for USB cable sounding different.

[sbgk]

https://medium.com/starts-with-a-bang/fixing-occams-razor-fc610ca13136

 

Might be a bit of a read for some. Still only a few pages. Might at first not seem all that relevant to audio. The payoff is near the bottom of the short article. The bit about what 'simple' means in the context of some complicated modern science questions.

 

Occam's razor of course: “All things being equal, the simplest explanation is usually the best.”

 

But what is simple? How do you apply this to more complex topics to determine what is actually the simpler of two possibilities?

 

from the web linked article:

 

The answer is not what most people expect. It’s not which explanation requires the fewest parameters or fewest number of inputs. It’s not which explanation allows you to get to the conclusion the fastest or in the fewest number of steps. And it’s not even the one that works the most universally.

 

Instead, the simplest explanation is the one that requires the fewest number of new assumptions beyond the ones we already know must exist. In other words, the simplest explanation conceivable is one that only relies on the set of known, established scientific knowledge.

 

I can already hear the objections to this being raised. Read the article as they are dealt with in it.

 

As I see it applying to audio discussions on CA it seems very pertinent. Over and over again, when the known parts of audio, electrical engineering, and the psychoacoustics of hearing point to something not being likely, we get the repeated complaints that not everything is known, that future improvements will prove the folly, that you are closed minded if you insist on using known principles only etc. etc. Well this article provides the reasoning to do just that, to stick with the known knowledge until you have really good reason to do otherwise. Doing so is the best bet, the best odds of being correct.

 

When electrical engineering says cable doesn't have a sound, measurements confirm the model, and the model is based upon current physics, then anecdote and conjecture that not everything is known is not the high percentage bet to make. Ditto for burn in. Ditto for high resolution sounding better. Ditto for jitter being so pervasivly audible. Ditto for bit perfect playback software being audible. Ditto for USB cable sounding different.

 

the simple thing for you to consider is why are there so many people buying/making/discussing things that you say make no difference ? Is it possible that they are right and you are wrong ? They can't all be idiots.

[esldude]

the simple thing for you to consider is why are there so many people buying/making/discussing things that you say make no difference ? Is it possible that they are right and you are wrong ? They can't all be idiots.

 

Idiots is your word.

 

I have more respect for them than you apparently. I can disagree without considering them idiots for holding another opinion.

[PeterSt]

Well, you won't be able to accuse me of observing differences without seeking the cause until I drop dead. It is only that perceived so-called science is soon held against you (me I mean) while "you" not being able to see that science flaws until the observations turned into well done science.

 

This is different from observations not being correct. And certainly not for given reasons as dreaming, placeboes, too much drugs or whatever.

 

 

As known from another thread, the only thing I personally lack often is the ($$$,$$$) equipment to prove what I clearly hear. Actually it is worse, because it is often what was intended and works out (with the placebo luring). From that comes reasoning and THAT is easily debunked by existing science. On this please keep in mind my views : sofar I do not lack any means of theoretical measurement to next "prove" whatever, or in other words, I never have said anywhere that what we perceive can not be measured. What I thus clearly lack though, is the crazy $ to do it in practice.

For your own context : think about that interlink in the other thread, but *know* that in that thread in my own forum I must have mentioned at least 20 times that I *require* the equipment to prove that it is for the better (reflections). Without that, anything (else) can be in order, very much including me not being able to judge what is better and what is worse. It is only that there's also the other way : let all try it until it's debunked. Does not happen ? then now what.

 

Let me be clear for when the response to your OP is to encourage for an Agree or Not Agree;

I did not read the article (my bad) but from what you (for me kind of vaguely) seem to pose, I don't agree a thing. But this is solely because I never claim that what we hear can not be measured. All can. Do notice though that for you, Dennis, it can't be known exactly what I claim to be measurable, because we can't have consensus on the differences I am talking about.

 

One of the most dangerous things to do, is claiming that some tweak etc. sounds better. It will sound different though. But really better ? especially when that's perceived we'll need a (very) long time to be sure about that and then still ...

I think I know what a crazy long time it requires to literally know what is better as such and what is not. On the process you always learn, especially when you finally are able to debunk your own for the better observation (I'll never fall in the same pitfall again). But this is also how I like to be able to measure, and preferably right away in "audio quality" (but no dreams about hat). It would save so much time ...

 

Peter

[sandyk]

the simple thing for you to consider is why are there so many people buying/making/discussing things that you say make no difference ? Is it possible that they are right and you are wrong ?

+1

 

P.S.

many thanks to the many members , including Dennis, who have wished me well with my recovery.

I am not out of the woods yet though, with a Prostate operation scheduled for mid February. The day before leaving rehab I had a catheter replaced, and 2 final year nurses from the Western Sydney Uni asked me if I minded them being present. It's a wee bit embarrassing though when one is a very attractive blonde, but I can assure you that the last thing you think about during such a procedure is that there is a young female present.

It's still a bit uncomfortable sitting in a computer chair for too long, so I won't be posting much for a while yet.

Kind Regards

Alex

[esldude]

Hooray for Alex!

 

So glad to see you posting even if we still won't hear much from you for a bit longer.

 

Hope all goes well in your surgery and recovery.

 

Best wishes.

 

+1

 

P.S.

many thanks to the many members , including Dennis, who have wished me well with my recovery.

I am not out of the woods yet though, with a Prostate operation scheduled for mid February. The day before leaving rehab I had a catheter replaced, and 2 final year nurses from the Western Sydney Uni asked me if I minded them being present. It's a wee bit embarrassing though when one is a very attractive blonde, but I can assure you that the last thing you think about during such a procedure is that there is a young female present.

It's still a bit uncomfortable sitting in a computer chair for too long, so I won't be posting much for a while yet.

Kind Regards

Alex

[sbgk]

Idiots is your word.

 

I have more respect for them than you apparently. I can disagree without considering them idiots for holding another opinion.

 

it's you who described their endeavours as folly ie foolish ie they are idiots

 

So get your own language correct before being precious about mine.

 

would still be interested in an answer to the question I posed, if you can get off your high horse.

[PeterSt]

P.S.

many thanks to the many members

 

Hey you !!

[beanbag]

the simple thing for you to consider is why are there so many people buying/

because they want to exchange money for happiness

 

making/

 

To take this money

 

discussing things that you say make no difference ?

 

because some people like having an opinion and publicly sharing it

 

Is it possible that they are right and you are wrong ?

 

very unlikely if history and statistics is any indication

Testing audiophile claims and myths

 

They can't all be idiots.

 

Not necessarily idiots, just wrong. Most of the time.

[YashN]

+1

 

Keep positive, Alex. All the best.

[Snowmonkey]

For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.

 

H. L. Mencken

 

Great to hear you are recovering Alex. I hope to be able to attend one of your listening sessions in the near future.

[bdiament]

+1

 

P.S.

many thanks to the many members , including Dennis, who have wished me well with my recovery.

I am not out of the woods yet though, with a Prostate operation scheduled for mid February. The day before leaving rehab I had a catheter replaced, and 2 final year nurses from the Western Sydney Uni asked me if I minded them being present. It's a wee bit embarrassing though when one is a very attractive blonde, but I can assure you that the last thing you think about during such a procedure is that there is a young female present.

It's still a bit uncomfortable sitting in a computer chair for too long, so I won't be posting much for a while yet.

Kind Regards

Alex

 

Hey Alex!!!!

Great to see you back my friend!

 

Post when you can but get better soon!!

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

http://www.soundkeeperrecordings.wordpress.com

Barry Diament Audio

[rodrigaj]

[Allan F]

+1

 

P.S.

many thanks to the many members , including Dennis, who have wished me well with my recovery.

I am not out of the woods yet though, with a Prostate operation scheduled for mid February. The day before leaving rehab I had a catheter replaced, and 2 final year nurses from the Western Sydney Uni asked me if I minded them being present. It's a wee bit embarrassing though when one is a very attractive blonde, but I can assure you that the last thing you think about during such a procedure is that there is a young female present.

It's still a bit uncomfortable sitting in a computer chair for too long, so I won't be posting much for a while yet.

Kind Regards

Alex

 

HI Alex:

 

Welcome back and best wishes for a speedy recovery from your approaching surgery. Your presence has been missed and I look forward to your regular return.

 

Best Regards,

Allan

[sandyk]

Thanks Barry and Allan.

I have several weeks before the Prostate operation which should give me more normality.

In the meantime, I have a yet as unplayed DVD from Barry to enjoy!

Kind Regards

Alex

[wgscott]

 

[kumakuma]

Thanks Barry and Allan.

I have several weeks before the Prostate operation which should give me more normality.

In the meantime, I have a yet as unplayed DVD from Barry to enjoy!

Kind Regards

Alex

 

Welcome back, Alex. We've missed you here!

 

All the best,

 

Tom

[alfe]

Thanks Barry and Allan.

I have several weeks before the Prostate operation which should give me more normality.

In the meantime, I have a yet as unplayed DVD from Barry to enjoy!

Kind Regards

Alex

 

Happy to see you back.

[sandyk]

Welcome back, Alex. We've missed you here!

 

All the best,

 

Tom

 

Happy to see you back. -Alfe

 

Thanks Tom and Alfe

 

Kind Regards

Alex

[bdiament]

Thanks Barry and Allan.

I have several weeks before the Prostate operation which should give me more normality.

In the meantime, I have a yet as unplayed DVD from Barry to enjoy!

Kind Regards

Alex

 

Hi Alex,

 

May the joyfulness of those "Winds of Change" sessions come through clearly and lift your spirits as the healing progresses.

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

http://www.soundkeeperrecordings.wordpress.com

Barry Diament Audio

[wgscott]

Yo Alex!

 

Glad you are back. Let the festivities resume!

[elcorso]

the simple thing for you to consider is why are there so many people buying/making/discussing things that you say make no difference ? Is it possible that they are right and you are wrong ? They can't all be idiots.

 

The self called "objectivist" are desperate to win their point, the problem with them is that they can not listen to differences. So, they post here in CA and some other forums a lot of BS 'white papers' or web articles from people with exactly the same problem. Please remember this could be 1/3 of the listeners population...! But the other 2/3 are very happy selecting cables (et al) that match their taste and budget.

 

Honestly I can see this as a problem, but the contrary, the choose is very easy for them.

 

The other new guy (trithio?) said in another thread that you should be away from feelings when listening, my God how can we? if music does not cause you any feelings, mejor apague y vámonos (it's better to shut down the lights and go home).

 

Cheers!

 

Roch

[sandyk]

The other new guy (trithio?) said in another thread that you should be away from feelings when listening, my God how can we? if music does not cause you any feelings, mejor apague y vámonos (it's better to shut down the lights and go home).

 

Cheers!

 

Roch

 

+1

[bdiament]

The self called "objectivist" are desperate to win their point, the problem with them is that they can not listen to differences. So, they post here in CA and some other forums a lot of BS 'white papers' or web articles from people with exactly the same problem. Please remember this could be 1/3 of the listeners population...! But the other 2/3 are very happy selecting cables (et al) that match their taste and budget.

 

Honestly I can see this as a problem, but the contrary, the choose is very easy for them.

 

The other new guy (trithio?) said in another thread that you should be away from feelings when listening, my God how can we? if music does not cause you any feelings, mejor apague y vámonos (it's better to shut down the lights and go home).

 

Cheers!

 

Roch

 

Well said Roch!

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

http://www.soundkeeperrecordings.wordpress.com

Barry Diament Audio

[Daphne]

esl-DUDE!!!

 

Your motive for starting this thread is a little out of line in my opinion. Issuing a science lesson on Occam’s Razor to support your endless facts and opinions issued through over 3000 posts could be considered a bit egotistical.

 

“Well this article provides the reasoning to do just that, to stick with the known knowledge until you have really good reason to do otherwise. Doing so is the best bet, the best odds of being correct.”

I find it hard to believe you are suggesting we should always conform to staying with currently known facts. That it would be the only “safe” path to follow, anything else would be dangerous if you always want to be correct.

 

How fortunate we are to have someone on this forum that is always correct and available on a daily basis to quote those known facts.

 

I am not saying your points are invalid or illogical, but they seem to be never ending. Do you believe that with a constant daily bombardment of your facts and opinions people will naturally fall in line and become your disciples? To believe without question in the audio gospel according to ESLDUDE?

 

Having faith in the scientific process can expand our knowledge, having unquestionable faith in generally accepted facts locks us into ignorance. We are all free to question what we don’t know or understand. After all, knowledge is the never ending journey into the unknown.

 

Please consider there are just not that many chest beating audiophile gorillas here on CA. You may be taking this subject far too seriously. Perhaps a vacation is long overdue. Venture out and enjoy life, enjoy some new music along the way.

 

On the lighter side, here is an anti-audiophile terrorist, hell bent on defeating the world of recorded music. From this omniscient grey beard of wisdom we have two new terms in the audio world: AnoiseLog and DiJitter.

High End Audio Does Not Exist!!!

Perhaps this man needs to be cloaked with your gospel of audio scientific facts.

 

Have a Nice Day.