Why audiophiles still use CDs?

[Snowmonkey]

I agree, I use log files and DR ratings too, but they are not the be all end all whether something will sound good or not in your computer setup. That's all I meant, I've just noticed the constant back and forth lately, I'm smarter than you type of stuff lately and that's not really why I initially came here.

In my experience, this forum (like many others) encompasses the whole spectrum of human debate and interaction, from lofty ideas and profound insights, to petty back-biting and plain rudeness. For whatever reason, the Music in General and Music Downloads & Streaming sub-forums are far more positive with users being generally more respectful and supportive of each other.

[Mystic]

If the current conversations are not to your liking, perhaps you could start a thread or two more in line with your interests and see how it goes.

 

You're right, I shouldn't of brought it up. I originally responded to the OP that I am happy with the sound of my Vecteur L-4.2 CDP over my current Mac/Oppo 105 setup so I've just been follow this thread and gone down a wormhole I'm not that very much interested...Sorry about that.

[kumakuma]

You're right, I shouldn't of brought it up. I originally responded to the OP that I am happy with the sound of my Vecteur L-4.2 CDP over my current Mac/Oppo 105 setup so I've just been follow this thread and gone down a wormhole I'm not that very much interested...Sorry about that.

 

Nothing to apologize for. I'm also not that into many of the current threads.

[alfe]

You're right, I shouldn't of brought it up. I originally responded to the OP that I am happy with the sound of my Vecteur L-4.2 CDP over my current Mac/Oppo 105 setup so I've just been follow this thread and gone down a wormhole I'm not that very much interested...Sorry about that.

 

Vecteur L-4.2 is a great CDP and I easily imagine that you can enjoy it, and sorry for the boring discussion but it's sometime tiresome to read the same bashing about CD.

[sandyk]

You're right, I shouldn't of brought it up. I originally responded to the OP that I am happy with the sound of my Vecteur L-4.2 CDP over my current Mac/Oppo 105 setup so I've just been follow this thread and gone down a wormhole I'm not that very much interested...Sorry about that.

 

Are you using a Mac Mini, and if so, is it powered via a low noise Linear PSU such as the one sold by Superdad, that was designed by John Swenson ? Well implemented PC audio should be able to clearly outperform most affordable "spinners"

If you are using the USB input of your Oppo 105 , have you tried using it in conjunction with a good external +5V USB supply such as the iFi USB etc. ? Although my Oppo103, is SMPS powered, it clearly benefits from the improved USB isolation and modified USB cable, and I would be surprised if the Linear PSU 105 doesn't benefit a little too.

 

Alex

[Mystic]

Are you using a Mac Mini, and if so, is it powered via a low noise Linear PSU such as the one sold by Superdad, that was designed by John Swenson ? Well implemented PC audio should be able to clearly outperform most affordable "spinners"

If you are using the USB input of your Oppo 105 , have you tried using it in conjunction with a good external +5V USB supply such as the iFi USB etc. ? Although my Oppo103, is SMPS powered, it clearly benefits from the improved USB isolation and modified USB cable, and I would be surprised if the Linear PSU 105 doesn't benefit a little too.

 

Alex

 

Yes, it's a MacMini (late 2012). The Vecteur L-4.2 was a $3000 player when sold new, is that an affordable "spinner" to you? the Oppo sounds good but it just doesn't have the musicality, detail and rich bass extension that I get with CDP.

[sandyk]

Yes, it's a MacMini (late 2012). The Vecteur L-4.2 was a $3000 player when sold new, is that an affordable "spinner" to you? the Oppo sounds good but it just doesn't have the musicality, detail and rich bass extension that I get with CDP.

 

I would expect that well implemented PC audio should outperform it too, but the limitations in your case may also be due to the use of analogue out from the Oppo ? . Many find them too detailed/thin sounding in standard configuration.

I don't use Analogue Out from my Oppo 103, but use it as a transport via well implemented coax SPDIF into a higher quality DIY DAC.

[beanbag]

In my experience, this forum (like many others) encompasses the whole spectrum of human debate and interaction, from lofty ideas and profound insights, to petty back-biting and plain rudeness. For whatever reason, the Music in General and Music Downloads & Streaming sub-forums are far more positive with users being generally more respectful and supportive of each other.

 

The reason is that in those forums, the objects being discussed actually differ from each other, and thus there won't be any claims that two things are the same, or A and B are inaudible, etc.

[Mystic]

I would expect that well implemented PC audio should outperform it too, but the limitations in your case may also be due to the use of analogue out from the Oppo ? . Many find them too detailed/thin sounding in standard configuration.

I don't use Analogue Out from my Oppo 103, but use it as a transport via well implemented coax SPDIF into a higher quality DIY DAC.

 

I just googled low noise linear PSU and that looks interesting. can you recommend any one product in particular (maybe a website URLs if handy)... My Mini is just stock which is just used as a music server with attached 4tb HD with a Kimber Kable usb to the Oppo which has a Kimber Kable PK10.

 

I've also been thinking of auditioning an Ayre QB-9 sometime later this year.

[sandyk]

I just googled low noise linear PSU and that looks interesting. can you recommend any one product in particular (maybe a website URLs if handy)... My Mini is just stock which is just used as a music server with attached 4tb HD with a Kimber Kable usb to the Oppo which has a Kimber Kable PK10.

 

I've also been thinking of auditioning an Ayre QB-9 sometime later this year.

 

If you can afford it, the JC2 Linear PSU from Alex Crespi, designed by E.E. John Swenson would appear to be a very good choice. PM Superdad for further details, including the little fan controller module too, which further improves performance

[alfe]

If you can afford it, the JC2 Linear PSU from Alex Crespi, designed by E.E. John Swenson would appear to be a very good choice. PM Superdad for further details, including the little fan controller module too, which further improves performance

 

Is it a PSU that you are using?

[PeterSt]

I agree, I use log files and DR ratings too, but they are not the be all end all whether something will sound good or not in your computer setup. That's all I meant, I've just noticed the constant back and forth lately, I'm smarter than you type of stuff lately and that's not really why I initially came here.

 

Ah, someone else starts to notice.

[sandyk]

Is it a PSU that you are using?

 

Alfe

No. I run a Windows 8.1 PC, but have a C-L-C filter for one HDD, a +12V to +5V regulator with a JLH PSU add-on for the Samsung 128GB Music SSD, and another JLH PSU add-on giving ultra clean +12 and +5V for the internal LG BR writer. The original JLH design had a typical noise level of around 4uV.

As the JLH is effectively in parallel with the incoming supply for the LG BR writer, it also appears to offer minor benefits to other adjacent components re noise and ripple.( my modified version has a simulated capacitance of around 1Farad,) This design has a ripple detector which modulates a 16mA approx. standing current in opposition to noise and ripple, to well past 300kHz.

 

Regards

Alex

[PeterSt]

Although I do recognize that having LPSU's and filters and what not everywhere can be helpful, I think that to propose this as the general solution to someone who thinks Hires is better or whatever is the matter exactly, is a sort of ridiculous.

 

I envision myself being on to the first steps of computer audio and the almost first serious advice is to tear apart everything and all and inject such filters etc. everywhere. Ehm, come on ?

To me it looks like a loss of reality. Or detachment from it. Or however to say it in English.

[alfe]

Alfe

No. I run a Windows 8.1 PC, but have a C-L-C filter for one HDD, a +12V to +5V regulator with a JLH PSU add-on for the Samsung 128GB Music SSD, and another JLH PSU add-on giving ultra clean +12 and +5V for the internal LG BR writer. The original JLH design had a typical noise level of around 4uV.

As the JLH is effectively in parallel with the incoming supply for the LG BR writer, it also appears to offer minor benefits to other adjacent components re noise and ripple.( my modified version has a simulated capacitance of around 1Farad,) This design has a ripple detector which modulates a 16mA approx. standing current in opposition to noise and ripple, to well past 300kHz.

 

Regards

Alex

 

So how you can advise somebody to buy something that you never tested

[sandyk]

Peter

I am not suggesting that my own solution is ideal for everyone.I can't afford to use an expensive LPSU solution like the JC2, so I get my proven results using PCBs that I have to hand. I already had the C-L-C filter from earlier testing with M.C. laying around, so I decided to put it in line.It's not too hard to do when the PC uses molex 4 pin power connectors.

You continually suggest that hi res in general is a waste of time and money, , yet many members find a great improvement from 24/192 and DSD128.

I will refrain from further responding to your post other than to say that you now appear to believe that you can correct all problems at the ripping and intermediate stages by DAC design. I simply do not accept that.

Alex

 

P.S.

The tone of your post is not characteristic from you , so I will leave it at this for now.

[sandyk]

So how you can advise somebody to buy something that you never tested

 

John Swenson's designs are well accepted by MANY DIY Audio members, (see his DIY Audio PSU design for the SBT) the technical specs are very good, and installation is very straightforward. There are also several good reports from members that own the JC2 and they are more user friendly than many of the alternatives, as well as having an optional Kelvin Sensor PCB which fine controls the output by monitoring the voltage at the PC end of the cable for a further small audible improvement in SQ.. This is a well proven technique. It can also be used to set different voltage outputs by resistor selection on a tiny PCB.

As for the fan filter, I had discussed this with AlexC before it was designed. SQ degradation is caused by PWM control of the PC fans which use large current pulses of around 25kHz. The fan coils appear to act as antennas and radiate these pulses into other areas of the PC..

With a previous PC I even had a front panel switch to switch off the PWM supply to the front fans during CD rips.

[PeterSt]

I will refrain from further responding to your post other than to say that you now appear to believe that you can correct all problems at the ripping and intermediate stages by DAC design. I simply do not accept that.

Alex

 

Alex, Huh ?!?

 

P.S.

The tone of your post is not characteristic from you , so I will leave it at this for now.

 

Oh, but that's a correct observation, Alex. But then this whole forum turned into crazy theorists in a very short time. You just added oil to that fire with your LPSU suggestions. And btw, you responded like I accused you of applying theory without testing, but that wasn't me.

 

I am not suggesting that my own solution is ideal for everyone.I can't afford to use an expensive LPSU solution like the JC2, so I get my proven results using PCBs that I have to hand.

 

You, and everyone for that matter, can use what he likes. I do that too. But this is different from you suggesting me that I must apply an LPSU to my Pang card etc. which doesn't work out in the first place, in my opinion.

So say that I might be against "ridiculous" solutions for those who don't even have a problem in the area. Next thing that will happen in this forum is that I must have poor sound because I don't apply DBT.

 

I hope you get it now. And it is not personal. Not at all. But I thought you'd understand.

Best regards,

Peter

[PeterSt]

Something else.

Where is Teresa ?

Shouldn't she be all over in this thread ?

[PeterSt]

Alex, once more :

 

The tone of your post is not characteristic from you , so I will leave it at this for now.

 

You are correct. So apologies to you if you felt that tone as personally addressed.

[jabbr]

Think this will help to understand error correction:

 

 

Ahhhh. Now I understand. If only I could remember where I put that jukebox...

[Mystic]

This is why I starting to hate this place ,all this back and forth is absolutely crazy. sandyk mentioned to possibly look into something and people come out of the woodwork and jump on him... For anyone who cares, I'm most likely not doing anything at but it's interesting to hear other options. Last summer I bought a Unison Research S6 tube amp and I love it and I love my Nottingham TT and my Vecteur CDP...very happy with my gear and to me CA is played for convenience, but in the future I may want it to be better but it does sound good now too... I wish people would sometimes be more respectful to others here.

[Ajax]

Snowmonkey and Mystic,

I agree that the Forum has recently surrendered to nit picking and that too often views are expressed in an antagonistic tone without supporting evidence or with misleading sensationalism. I think we can all do with a chill pill now and then (myself included), and agree to disagree. Personally I would like to see us spend more of our time teaching and learning while at the same time enjoying the camaraderie. Even though I don't post often this is still my favourite audio site and I have learnt a lot from it.

 

Alex,

Welcome back and good luck with your convalescence. I concur that Mystic should be getting better sound from his MAC. Although I don't employ a Linear PSU myself at least your suggestion to investigate the power supply and employ and external DAC is positive and helpful.

 

Peter,

I was thinking the same thing, where is Teresa? CDs are certainly her pet hate and normally she would be yelling from the rooftops the virtues of hi res and LPs. Her absence is disturbing (i.e. I hope she is OK).

 

Barry,

Thanks for sending me your files some time ago. I sold my house and put all my gear in storage, which is why I haven't responded. However, I recently bought a Devialet 200 with ATOHM GT1 speakers (Ensemble) and have been playing your files but so far are unable to hear a distinct difference, even between the 16/44.1 and 24/192.

 

If the files are all from the same original master recorded at 24/192, and then properly dithered with noise shaping down to 16/44.1, then I am not so sure I should hear a difference. According to Bob Katz; (Bob Katz - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

 

"When performed properly, dithering will help your music to retain its depth and purity of tone. Although the required amplitude of the dither is about -96 dB, it's possible to shape (equalize) the dither to minimize its audibility. Noise-shaping techniques re-equalize the spectrum of the dither while retaining its average power, moving the noise away from the areas where the ear is most sensitive (circa 3 KHz), and into the high frequency region (10-22 KHz).

 

Very high precision (56 to 72 bit) arithmetic is required to calculate these random numbers. The best techniques are virtually inaudible to the ear. With 72-bit arithmetic, all the dither noise has been pushed into the high frequency region, which at -60 or -70 dB is still inaudible. Critical listeners were complaining that the high frequency rise of the early noise-shaping curves changed the tonality of the sound, adding a bit of brightness. But it turns out that it is the shape of the curve in the midband that affects the tonality, due to masking. Two or three of the latest and best of these noise-shaping dithers are tonally neutral, to my ears. It took a long time to get there (about 10 years of development), but now we can say that the best of these processors yield 19-20 bit performance on a 16-bit CD, with virtually no tonal alteration or loss of ambience from the 24-bit source."

 

Hopefully I am not off thread raising this as IMO one of the obvious benefits of playing audio from computers vs playing CDs is the ability to play his res.

[PeterSt]

This is why I starting to hate this place ,all this back and forth is absolutely crazy. sandyk mentioned to possibly look into something and people come out of the woodwork and jump on him...

 

Hey ... Don't over-do it , because I think I was the only one jumping on sandyk. But funnily enough for the (back and forth - preventing that) reasons you mention yourself. But let me apologize to you too. No problem with that.

 

I wish people would sometimes be more respectful to others here.

 

Although I did not testify of that much, I agree. But I don't think it is really that. Our big ego's is.

 

My answer could also have been like Ajax implied :

Why would that be needed if I myself have the best sound in the world (ego-ego-ego) and besides that, knowing it is a kind of rubbish to think that direction in the first place. And no, I don't make this up today for this thread or post - I own a forum full of it (so to speak). But I didn't say it like that and found some other reason which is just as legit. And you know what ? *If* I would have said that right away, sandyk would for 100% sure have come up with the response as he did. This is probably because he is smarter than me, and he would be correct. But he is even more smart and came up with it anyway. Sh*t happens.

 

But my personal ego is at least not that big that I claim such things and certainly not for commercial reasons. Some times it is difficult to express what you feel without real shouting.

 

I hope this suffices.

Peter

[alfe]

Ahhhh. Now I understand. If only I could remember where I put that jukebox...

 

The only thing that can't be corrected is Jitter and I doubt that you will find it in your jukebox.