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Rebecca Pidgeon - The Raven PCM


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Who can help me?

 

I own this wonderful album in 16/44.1 and I am interested in a HD version!

It is available in two different resolutions:

The Raven 176/24 | HDtracks - The World's Greatest-Sounding Music Downloads

 

I am confused, because the offer is 88 and 176kHz but not 96 and 192kHz. I suspect, it is an analogue recording, remastered to DSD, and converted to PCM. Is or was there a DSD version available, or is it native PCM?

 

And can you show an Audacity analysis?

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Who can help me?

 

I own this wonderful album in 16/44.1 and I am interested in a HD version!

It is available in two different resolutions:

The Raven 176/24 | HDtracks - The World's Greatest-Sounding Music Downloads

 

I am confused, because the offer is 88 and 176kHz but not 96 and 192kHz. I suspect, it is an analogue recording, remastered to DSD, and converted to PCM. Is or was there a DSD version available, or is it native PCM?

 

And can you show an Audacity analysis?

 

There are 2 SACDs from Chesky, one is mulitchannel but I haven't seen DSD. If Chesky recorded it, they didn't record it in DSD. As far as I know, they don't record any DSD. Unlikely the album was recorded in analog in 1993-1994. There also wasn't 24.48/88/176 recording going on in 1994. And HDT says they never take material they are given by a label and upsample it to get hi-res.

 

To me that means Chesky probably recorded it in analog or 44.1 and digitized/upsampled it to produce an SACD. Chesky and HDT are related but separate companies, so it's possible Chesky gave HDT the DSD master that was upsampled from PCM or derived from analog and HDT converted the DSD to PCM. Technically, that's consistent with their claim that they don't upsample material from the labels to get hi-res PCM.

 

If you or someone else who actually owns a disc reads this, maybe the disc booklet will give us the info.

Main listening (small home office):

Main setup: Surge protector +_iFi  AC iPurifiers >Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Conditioning+Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three >GIK Room Treatments.

Secondary Listening: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Matrix Element i Streamer/DAC (XLR)+Schiit Freya>Kii Three .

Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup.
Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. 

All absolute statements about audio are false :)

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There are 82 SACD titles from Chezky:

 

SA-CD.net - Search

 

I own several and they have a wonderful SQ under DSD (PS3 rip). On this days some of them got an stratospheric price on the web...!

 

The Raven is one of the least expensive:

 

Amazon.com: Rebecca Pidgeon: The Raven: Music

 

I'm not sure but I believe some years ago they recorded their music on DSD. Transfers to PCM from DSD are made on 88 or 176 by a lot of recordings companies, that's why I'm guessing (and only guessing) they were recorded on DSD.

 

Roch

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A scan I have of the SACD booklet provides the following information:

 

Digital

DDD

 

Recorded using the 128x oversampling A to D Mark III converter with ultra-analog modules and vacuum tube equipment built by George Kaye.

Sometimes it's like someone took a knife, baby
Edgy and dull and cut a six inch valley
Through the middle of my skull

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Acc'd to this thread The hi rez experience: does it live up to the hype and why? that converter is a Redbook 16/44.1 machine. That means the digital master was redbook. But a couple of places on the web claim there were both analog and digital recordings made at the session.

Main listening (small home office):

Main setup: Surge protector +_iFi  AC iPurifiers >Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Conditioning+Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three >GIK Room Treatments.

Secondary Listening: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Matrix Element i Streamer/DAC (XLR)+Schiit Freya>Kii Three .

Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup.
Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. 

All absolute statements about audio are false :)

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I have the original vinyl and two different SACD's. One is the entire "The Raven" and the other is a "top hits" Chesky SACD with 'Spanish Harlem" and one or two more cuts from the "Raven". I'm quite sure that when "The Raven" was first recorded, it was before any hirez existed. One thing I do remember quite distinctly is that at the beginning of "Spanish Harlem" on the vinyl there is one extra beat in the introduction compared with the SACD. Not sure whether it is a completely different take or just a different edit. I am currently out of town. I can check it out when I get home this weekend. "The Raven" was first released in 1994, when I bought the vinyl.

 

Larry

Analog-VPIClas3,3DArm,LyraSkala+MiyajimaZeromono,Herron VTPH2APhono,2AmpexATR-102+MerrillTridentMaster TapePreamp  Dig Rip-Pyramix,IzotopeRX3Adv,MykerinosCard,PacificMicrosonicsModel2; Dig Play-Lampi Pacific, mch NADAC, Roon-HQPlayer,Oppo105  Electronics-DoshiPre,CJ MET1mchPre,Cary2A3monoamps Speakers-AvantgardeDuosLR,3SolosC,LR,RR

Other-2x512EngineerMarutaniSymmetrical Power+Cables Music-15KRecs(90%classical),1.7KR2Rtapes,1.5KCD's,500SACDs,50TBripped files

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I have the original vinyl and two different SACD's. One is the entire "The Raven" and the other is a "top hits" Chesky SACD with 'Spanish Harlem" and one or two more cuts from the "Raven". I'm quite sure that when "The Raven" was first recorded, it was before any hirez existed. One thing I do remember quite distinctly is that at the beginning of "Spanish Harlem" on the vinyl there is one extra beat in the introduction compared with the SACD. Not sure whether it is a completely different take or just a different edit. I am currently out of town. I can check it out when I get home this weekend. "The Raven" was first released in 1994, when I bought the vinyl.

 

Larry

 

The hi rez (24/88 & 24/96) "look" like sourced from analogue tape regarding frequency extension and a typical peak on 40 Khz. The SQ is very natural in frequency extremes, then never from a Red Book source. The same for the DSD from the SACD.

 

Roch

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The hi rez (24/88 & 24/96) "look" like sourced from analogue tape regarding frequency extension and a typical peak on 40 Khz. The SQ is very natural in frequency extremes, then never from a Red Book source. The same for the DSD from the SACD.

 

Roch

 

I'm still guessing they sourced the hi-res downloads from the DSD. Not bad, especially if the DSD was sourced from analog, as you seem to think - and I have no reason to doubt you.

 

HDT doesn't have a history of "producing" their catalog. And it is typical for them to turn DSD into 88 and 176. Except for recordings that we know were produced originally at 88 or 176, almost all the 88/ 176 stuff at HDT seems to be derived from DSD. Bruce Brown at Puget Sound has written about his work converting SACD/DSD to hi-res 88/176 PCM for download for HDT.

Main listening (small home office):

Main setup: Surge protector +_iFi  AC iPurifiers >Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Conditioning+Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three >GIK Room Treatments.

Secondary Listening: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Matrix Element i Streamer/DAC (XLR)+Schiit Freya>Kii Three .

Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup.
Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. 

All absolute statements about audio are false :)

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The HDtracks download is named "The Bob Katz 15th Anniversary Remaster" (1994+15 = 2009), so it should be something different than a rip of the 2001 (stereo) or 2007 (multichannel) SACD

 

Of course, but for what I believe (guessing) is not sourced from DSD is because of Audacity spectrogram output. I'm not an Audacity fan, but when have a graph from hi res PCM, sourced from DSD they look very different: Like 'phantom frequencies' in suprasonic frequencies and this is not the case from the 24/88 or 24/96 in, for example, Rebecca Pidgeon's "Spanish Harlem".

 

Roch

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Thank you for all those answers, they reflect my assumptions. But now I know as much as before ;)

Should I try to get a SACD disc or buy the available 24/176 download instead?

For me, a hdtracks version in 24/88 or 176 lets me believe, that it is a simple DSD to PCM transfer. A Audacity plot could clear up my ignorance. Is there anybody out there who is so kind and can post a screenshot?

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Thank you for all those answers, they reflect my assumptions. But now I know as much as before ;)

Should I try to get a SACD disc or buy the available 24/176 download instead?

For me, a hdtracks version in 24/88 or 176 lets me believe, that it is a simple DSD to PCM transfer. A Audacity plot could clear up my ignorance. Is there anybody out there who is so kind and can post a screenshot?

 

My pleasure.

 

 

Rebeca PIgdeon-Spanish Harlem 24:88.jpg

 

This is from the 24/88 DL, but the 24/96 is the same.

 

I'm very happy with the SACD rip, but I'm a DSD lover...!

 

Roch

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Dear Roch,

 

thank you! Perfect! :)

So your opinion is, that the download is not from a DSD > PCM transfer? But your SACD is superior to the download?

Maybe different versions/conversations?

 

Next: I know there is a 24/88 and a 24/176 version. But I have never seen a 24/96 version. Where did you get this version?

 

THX,

Bernhard

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In that moment I saw, that I already own Rebecca Pidgeon - Retrospective [24/96] - it's a shame :o

 

Some of the tracks of The Raven are on Retrospective again. The latter one seems to originate from a SACD / DSD version. Attached is the plot of Spanish Harlem (from Retrospective 24/96) again.

 

Bernhard

 

Spanish Harlem 24-96.JPG

 

 

P.S.:

 

The World's Greatest Audiophile Vocal Recordings [24/96] is the same DSD > PCM version.

 

Maybe the true SACD makes sense to me on one hand, maybe it is a native Analog > DSD transfer. On the other hand the hdtracks download in 24/176 could be the best version, because mastering was in PCM and PCM is the native format.

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  • 1 year later...

The 24/88 PCM, aka "The Bob Katz 15th Anniversary Remaster" was a new remastering at the time (see HDtracks "About This Album" - there used to be a link to an interview there, too). I can attest to Katz's claim that it sounds better than the earlier SACD (I have both and never listen to the SACD anymore, as it sounds thinner, brighter, less full-bodied, physical and warm in comparison, with a slight but annoying sibilance that's absent from the later PCM remastering), and those PCM conversions based on the latter. What's new, however, is that there's now 2015 DSD64 as well as DSD128 downloads - anyone have any information on those?

 

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Really shady business. How hard can it really be to simply show the provenance of these recordings? Answer is not much. I think sometimes they don't know, and when that is the case should simply say so.

 

I am still limping by with the Raven CD which sounds pretty good.

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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Really shady business. How hard can it really be to simply show the provenance of these recordings? Answer is not much. I think sometimes they don't know, and when that is the case should simply say so.

 

I am still limping by with the Raven CD which sounds pretty good.

 

True. I still have the CD, and used to listen to it regularly (a couple of tracks in particular) before the high-resolution formats became available.

 

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

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  • 8 months later...

Any news? Any new information available? :)

Triangle Magellan Concerto 2 < AQ Everest < Vitus Audio SS-010 Mk2 < AQ Dragon High Current < AQ WEL XLR < Chord Qutest DAC w UpTone JS-2 & AQ Dragon Source < AQ Diamond USB < Innuos Phoenix USB w AQ Dragon Source < Aurender N100H & AQ Dragon Source < NetGear GS105GE Switch w UpTone LPS1.2 < Supra CAT8 Ethernet < Gryphon PowerZone w AQ NRG-Wild < Stillpoints UltraSS, Ansuz Darkz D-TC & D2, Omicron Harmonic Stabilizer, Gold Evolution SE & Classic < Furutech FT-SWS (R) < Synergistic Research Orange Quantum Fuse < Solid Tech Hybrid < GigaWatt G-16A 2P Circuit Breaker

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Any news? Any new information available? :)

 

Reissued recently on 180g vinyl pressed by QRP. Here is the headline of the ad.

 

"180-gram LP reissue pressed at Quality Record Pressings!

Mastered by Ryan K. Smith at Sterling Sound from the analog master"

 

If true, it looks like the vinyl is from an analog master, not a digital.

 

Larry

Analog-VPIClas3,3DArm,LyraSkala+MiyajimaZeromono,Herron VTPH2APhono,2AmpexATR-102+MerrillTridentMaster TapePreamp  Dig Rip-Pyramix,IzotopeRX3Adv,MykerinosCard,PacificMicrosonicsModel2; Dig Play-Lampi Pacific, mch NADAC, Roon-HQPlayer,Oppo105  Electronics-DoshiPre,CJ MET1mchPre,Cary2A3monoamps Speakers-AvantgardeDuosLR,3SolosC,LR,RR

Other-2x512EngineerMarutaniSymmetrical Power+Cables Music-15KRecs(90%classical),1.7KR2Rtapes,1.5KCD's,500SACDs,50TBripped files

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  • 1 year later...

Sorry for posting in this old thread! I was looking around for info about this remaster and saw this thread. Then I saw a blog post by Bob himself on InnerFidelity, where he mentioned this remaster:

Quote

I transferred this album using my custom tape head and electronics from the original 15 IPS Dolby SR master tape. This is available from HD Tracks at 176.4 kHz and its derivatives. This is the first time this album has been heard with full dynamics. The sound is bigger, much more impacting than the original CD release, which was made by reduction from our ADC at the time, and some of the peaks had overloaded. But the tape retained the full analog headroom. Be sure you download the 15th anniversary remaster. We listened reducing the 176.4 to 88.2k in JRiver because the Prism Lyra DAC is limited to 96 kHz. It retains 99.999999999% of the sound of the 176.4. If you hear differences they are just as likely to be the performance of your DAC at the particular sample rate than any conclusions about the rate itself. Turn it up: By necessity this master is lower in level than the original CD, in order to retain the peaks which had been previously lost.

 

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1 hour ago, dalstyne said:

Sorry for posting in this old thread! I was looking around for info about this remaster and saw this thread. Then I saw a blog post by Bob himself on InnerFidelity, where he mentioned this remaster:

 

 

I find it confusing that to this day, the 24/88 PCM is the only format specifically referred to as "The Bob Katz 15th Anniversary Remaster" - once one chooses e.g. 24/174 PCM from the scroll-down menu, then checks under "About This Album" it says "click here" leading back to the 24/88 PCM as it used to already back when there was no other high-resolution release on HDtracks than the 24/174 PCM conversion from SACD (presumably, at the time, by Bruce Brown). Most clearly, the CD, SACD and PCM conversion from the earlier DSD sound inferior to the 24/88 PCM "Anniversary Remaster", but it remains unclear if the 24/174 has been updated to Katz's native PCM transfer, and whether today's 64fs and 128fs downloads are conversions from the latter as well.

 

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

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