Ned Kelly Posted January 10, 2015 Author Share Posted January 10, 2015 Not too bad then, as the fuss over at Headfi has been going on for months before. LoL Agreed, but by my understanding this is the first time it has left Mike Moffat's desk / kitchen table / whatever. Schiit's production team churns out thousands - my best guesstimate - of inexpensive DACs and headphone amps and now they're being asked to do the same for two products costing roughly 3 times anything else in their lineup. The Ragnarok amp beta - by my count - has had two RTB casualties and virtually all the other feedback re quality control has been laudatory - if they can achieve that sort of hit rate with Yggdrasil I believe they will be doing well. As far as folk speculating about a new product before the majority have had a chance to hear it, that's part and parcel of this hobby. If you go back and read the QB9-DSD 'upgrade' thread you'll find that designer Charles Hansen was given a very hostile reception by many on this board for his outspoken attitude to the merits of DSD - that was months before the upgraded model blew certain regulars away with it's PCM playback ability. If I had to make a blanket statement, it would be that the majority on this forum are a little less prone to hype than a large proportion of Head-Fiers, hence my tongue-firmly-in-cheek comment in the OP. Skepticism is healthy - blind cynicism considerably less so - I particularly look forward to the inevitable comparisons from folk with expensive d-s DACs. Just one more headphone and I know I can kick this nasty little habit ! Link to comment
Jud Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 A Lampi DSD only Dac costs a bit less than a Phasure... Yes, and about $3000 more than a DSC. The other problem for me is tubes. Nothing at all about the sound, it is simply that I'm That Guy - you know, the one who has the party for 80 people and a tube decides to burn out and stop the music right in the middle of it? So throughout the several decades I've been making audio purchases, I have only ever allowed myself to consider solid state. Yes, I know (and have heard) the many delights this has deprived me of. But that's the price of being That Guy. One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
Jud Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 And it's certainly more enjoyable to be listening to high resolution music on a product like the Lampizator DSD DAC or their new Amber DAC (on sale now for $1,995) vs. talking about how a future DAC might sound. I wouldn't want to deprive myself of the pleasures of listening - or idle speculation! One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
wisnon Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 Yes, and about $3000 more than a DSC. The other problem for me is tubes. Nothing at all about the sound, it is simply that I'm That Guy - you know, the one who has the party for 80 people and a tube decides to burn out and stop the music right in the middle of it? So throughout the several decades I've been making audio purchases, I have only ever allowed myself to consider solid state. Yes, I know (and have heard) the many delights this has deprived me of. But that's the price of being That Guy. Jud, My post was to show that if you can afford a Phasure, then it is unfair to saw a DSD Lampi is expensive when it in fact even cheaper. Now, if you said both were a lot of money, I would agree with you. Tubes in Dac are under minimal stress and last like 10 years. You can compre them to use in amps. I have a pair of vintage WE 101ds I bought for $100 delivered to EUrope on the Bay , as they were described as no good for audio. Well, my hunch paid off an though they test weak, they play brilliantly in the Dac. Strong pairs are listed for up to $1700 on Ebay. In any case, the DSD only uses the ECC40 tube and it takes 10 seconds to flip over the Dac and switch the tube. The ECC40 tube sounds great is a very small tube, like half the size of your index finger. DONT CONFUSE DAC TUBE USAGE WITH AMP USAGE. Would it only cost $400 to build a DSC1 with similar overspecced power supplies, casing, etc? You did talk about SOTA performance, so cheaping out on the build could make it great, but not SOTA. In any case, making it for less than $1k with great sound is quite an accomplishment, but again, unless you heard both its not posible to say what you would prefer. Link to comment
Superdad Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 ..I'm That Guy - you know, the one who has the party for 80 people and a tube decides to burn out and stop the music right in the middle of it? Dude, you throw parties for 80 people?! And you don't pack away your hifi gear to avoid damage from spills or cone-pokes? (Autocorrect just tried to change that to corn-pokers ). Don't forget to invite me to your next bash. Sadly, my music listening room doesn't accomodate more than two guests at a time. UpTone Audio LLC Link to comment
wisnon Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 Agreed, but by my understanding this is the first time it has left Mike Moffat's desk / kitchen table / whatever. Schiit's production team churns out thousands - my best guesstimate - of inexpensive DACs and headphone amps and now they're being asked to do the same for two products costing roughly 3 times anything else in their lineup. The Ragnarok amp beta - by my count - has had two RTB casualties and virtually all the other feedback re quality control has been laudatory - if they can achieve that sort of hit rate with Yggdrasil I believe they will be doing well. As far as folk speculating about a new product before the majority have had a chance to hear it, that's part and parcel of this hobby. If you go back and read the QB9-DSD 'upgrade' thread you'll find that designer Charles Hansen was given a very hostile reception by many on this board for his outspoken attitude to the merits of DSD - that was months before the upgraded model blew certain regulars away with it's PCM playback ability. If I had to make a blanket statement, it would be that the majority on this forum are a little less prone to hype than a large proportion of Head-Fiers, hence my tongue-firmly-in-cheek comment in the OP. Skepticism is healthy - blind cynicism considerably less so - I particularly look forward to the inevitable comparisons from folk with expensive d-s DACs. Charles DSD objection was mainly from an Industry BUSINESS perspective. Sure he preferred PCM, but I dont think it was a critical difference. I think he was concerned about yet another format to dilute a fading industry. Link to comment
wisnon Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 Dude, you throw parties for 80 people?! And you don't pack away your hifi gear to avoid damage from spills or cone-pokes? (Autocorrect just tried to change that to corn-pokers ). Don't forget to invite me to your next bash.Sadly, my music listening room doesn't accomodate more than two guests at a time. Oh, I forgot to address that. Your high end listening gear is not meant to rock a party. Some drunk guy decides to ramp up the vibes, turns the volume knob to 11 and bye, bye tweets. LoL Go rent a PA system or buy a robust Crown XLS1500 on Craigslist and get some $100 Amazon Pioneer speakers. Much less tears will be shed. LoL Link to comment
robocop Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Your high end listening gear is not meant to rock a party. Why not? Mine has always rocked when required and anyone handy has loved the sound. No one ever had the courage to turn my volume up(never sure which control that was) and it was always loud and clear, beyond anything they ever heard in there own homes. These days we tend to rock on with live Blueray concerts in stereo as if we were present. I've always held live concerts as the reference for my sound and owned suitable gear to reproduce that sound with low distortion, if any at volume. In saying that a lot of today's live concerts are loud beyond belief so rarely attend preferring home. Robert Link to comment
wisnon Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Why not? Mine has always rocked when required and anyone handy has loved the sound. No one ever had the courage to turn my volume up(never sure which control that was) and it was always loud and clear, beyond anything they ever heard in there own homes. These days we tend to rock on with live Blueray concerts in stereo as if we were present. I've always held live concerts as the reference for my sound and owned suitable gear to reproduce that sound with low distortion, if any at volume. In saying that a lot of today's live concerts are loud beyond belief so rarely attend preferring home. Robert Do you want your expensive gear being overdriven by the drunken life of the party? Nit saying your system cant play loud, I talk about party risk. Link to comment
Superdad Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Do you want your expensive gear being overdriven by the drunken life of the party? Nit saying your system cant play loud, I talk about party risk. You must run with a rowdier crowd then…! UpTone Audio LLC Link to comment
Ned Kelly Posted January 11, 2015 Author Share Posted January 11, 2015 wisnon likes nothing better than to crank Steel Panther up to 11 at 3am and shred that air guitar. I believe that's whats known in some circles as 'bitchin' Just one more headphone and I know I can kick this nasty little habit ! Link to comment
PeterSt Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Do you want your expensive gear being overdriven by the drunken life of the party? Nit saying your system cant play loud, I talk about party risk. Robert, like me, is using XXHighEnd. So how ever would a visitor - drunk or not - be able to do so ? LOL Lush^3-e Lush^2 Blaxius^2.5 Ethernet^3 HDMI^2 XLR^2 XXHighEnd (developer) Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer) Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer) Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier) Link to comment
bhobba Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 This thread is making a great fuss about a product not yet launched. Yea - amazing isn't it. Still whatever floats your boat. Regarding the DSD thing I have been fortunate to have done a comparison between my Playback Designs MPD3 that is designed for DSD from the ground up and a vintage type DAC based on one of those old Phillips double crown chips called a Killer. It was playing the DSD version of Harry Belefonte - Sylvie using a Mac Mini - the PD was fed the DSD - it was down-converted by the Mac-Mini to bog standard 44.1 for the Killer. The DSD via the PD sounded very good - very real live and present - but when played through the Killer it simply sounded more real to my ears. There is a lot of untapped potential in good old redbook. Thanks Bill Link to comment
Miska Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Good thing is that if the DAC supports input rates higher than RedBook, one can do external upsampling and see if it sounds better. If the filter in the DAC is "bitperfect" then it at least shouldn't screw up the result. Regarding the old Philips chips, I had Marantz CD-60 with SAA7220 4x digital filter and TDA1541A converters and sound always had the digital flavor. At least the player never broke down. I eventually sent it to electronics recycling at 2006 or something. It sounded much better with external DAC based on BB DF1700 8x digital filter and PCM63P converters. I eventually switched that over to CS4328 based DAC which is 64x 1-bit converter. I still have both of those DACs. One major problem of TDA1541A was that on fade-outs you could easily hear how the resolution was quickly lost and sound became rough. Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers Link to comment
wisnon Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 You must run with a rowdier crowd then…! We did say Paaaarteh! LoiL Link to comment
wisnon Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Robert, like me, is using XXHighEnd. So how ever would a visitor - drunk or not - be able to do so ?LOL Hahahaha, yes, XXHighEnd is perfect party protection. Hey Pete, howdaya crank this thing up? Ooops, I spilled my drink on your keyboard, Soooorrry! Lemme wipe it up with this wet mop. Hahahahaha Link to comment
wisnon Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 You must run with a rowdier crowd then…! What, you throw tea and crumpets parties…when you get wild you include cucumber sandwiches and Pims? LoL Link to comment
PeterSt Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Hey Pete, howdaya crank this thing up? Ooops, I spilled my drink on your keyboard, Soooorrry! Lemme wipe it up with this wet mop. OK, this really happened not so long ago : Envision that I have all sorts of electronics with cover off right on the floor, in the living room. Say this is all in between the speakers. This is for so long by now that I don't even pay attention to it when visitors come over - say a party with 10 or so small children for which we requires music already so they get nicely over-voiced. Quite dangerous we'd say (I actually say the same) but somehow small children don't get into that. Nor do they touch loudspeaker drivers. Again somehow. Then there's a coffee table on which at that time I had a monitor + keyboard and mouse. Was convenient because where else to put something when it's new and won't fit anywhere. In this case it was about a new dedicated audio machine, actually the one I was using for playback for that day. Monitor was off, and I was using a(n RDC) remote instead somewhere else in the room. And yes, at some stage you're not even aware of what's actually real-live in use. I wasn;t aware of it myself. NOW children behave differently; they see a monitor which is off with a keyboard in front of it, and start typing away. Daddy's do that too - mummy's do that too but children know that dad and mum will be more harmful with all On than the child is when all is Off anyway. Dang-dang here and bam-bam there. I saw that happening and all I thought was "oh well, keyboards don't cost that much" and btw when something doesn't work to my liking I'd even throw with the thing (I once deliberately broke one in two). Only a couple of beers later I realized that was just a live PC, XXHighEnd playing on it. WTF ? how lucky must we all have been that no windows and Windows blew through the roof. Then again later I realized that it must have been on the log-on screen because of RDC had taken over. Otherwise it would have required Alt- shortcuts which of course no child will guess. They say. Lush^3-e Lush^2 Blaxius^2.5 Ethernet^3 HDMI^2 XLR^2 XXHighEnd (developer) Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer) Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer) Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier) Link to comment
wisnon Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 OUCH…almost. Nice story Peter. I still am more afraid of the drunken "life of the party" trying to ramps tings up without permission thank the kids…LoL Link to comment
jabbr Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 OK, this really happened not so long ago : Envision that I have all sorts of electronics with cover off right on the floor, in the living room. Say this is all in between the speakers. This is for so long by now that I don't even pay attention to it when visitors come over - say a party with 10 or so small children for which we requires music already so they get nicely over-voiced. Quite dangerous we'd say (I actually say the same) but somehow small children don't get into that. Nor do they touch loudspeaker drivers. Again somehow. ... I've has to sheepishly obtain copies of certain esoteric sensors after forgetting to lock my home office (actually one of my kids had thought it would be fun to release the door latch at the top of the jamb) ... trust me, small children do get into things... Custom room treatments for headphone users. Link to comment
PeterSt Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 trust me, small children do get into things... But then they are trying to help ! Lush^3-e Lush^2 Blaxius^2.5 Ethernet^3 HDMI^2 XLR^2 XXHighEnd (developer) Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer) Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer) Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier) Link to comment
acg Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Haha, don't bet Mani. OK, I would say the same regarding all contexts (like repeating old expressions from Bill), but IIRC 3 "a"s are in the (his) hood there. Don't forget in a blind test that Bill placed every other dac (including the old NOS1) ahead of his own Killer! Link to comment
bhobba Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Don't forget in a blind test that Bill placed every other dac (including the old NOS1) ahead of his own Killer! Sure - but you might also like to mention a bit later when music that suits the Killer like my favourite Peggy Lee - Fever - was played a number of people came up to me and said it was an entirely different DAC. That's aside from other comparisons where the Killer was preferred such as one done with Rob181 who I believe is switching to a Killer via some direct driven electrostatics. The Killer DAC guys think its harmonically accurate and when fed with the two contrived tracks at that blind test (the Yellow and Lenord Cohen tracks) it was garbage in garbage out. I personally don't agree with that. IMHO one of the reasons the Killer sounds so good is it produces a subtle valve type of euphonic sound that isn't good on certain material - but that's me - some Killer DAC guys would declare a fatwa on me for saying that. Like I have consistently said personal preference plays a big role. That however is just bye the bye. I am pretty sure ACG has the new Phasure and will only be too happy to compare it to this new DAC if one makes it out our way here in Aus. Thanks Bill Link to comment
firedog Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 The no DSD in the DAC has some logic to it: optimize for PCM, you can't also optimize for DSD in same DAC. That's the reason they make the Loki. It's not very different from the approach of Berkeley, who basically tell you to convert your DSD to 176 and play it back over their system: they even claim sound is improved that way. They don't see any sonic reason to playback DSD as DSD. YMMV, not trying to take their side. Anyway, this is a really interesting piece of gear. There's pretty much consensus that previous Schiit products are very good, especially for the price. This thing is going to be expensive, but not in hi-end audiophile terms. So let's wait and see if it really is a giant killer in PCM playback. And if so, how it sounds when playing back DSD>PCM; if the PCM playback is really good the DSD may also sound great in spite of being converted. Main listening (small home office): Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments. Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three . Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup. Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. All absolute statements about audio are false Link to comment
bmoura Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 The no DSD in the DAC has some logic to it: optimize for PCM, you can't also optimize for DSD in same DAC. And these days we have DACs like the Lampizator DSD DAC and the Valve Audio Designs DSD Player than skip PCM altogether to bring you a direct filtered approach to DSD playback with no DAC chips required. Depends on what you are looking for. DSD DAC VAD DSD Player - Hear DSD files in their purist form | Valve Audio DevicesValve Audio Devices Link to comment
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