Jud Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Companies need to remember that what is important when selling products is offering what consumers are looking to buy - not what companies want to sell to consumers. Someone who famously disdained that advice was Steve Jobs. Someone else who did so was Fred Horowitz. Who? Exactly! Thanks, I'll be here all week.... Just off the top of my head re my own thinking: If I were considering a new DAC purchase, I would think seriously about buying a PCM-only DAC like the Phasure or (depending on how it actually sounds) Yggdrasil, then DIY-ing or having someone build me a DSC2 when Miska comes out with his next design. "Best of both worlds" sort of thing, to me. But then I doubt I've ever reflected majority sentiment on much of anything, so if I were a manufacturer I wouldn't pay me much attention! One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
bmoura Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Their worst selling product is a *very* inexpensive, decent performing DSD DAC. You can attribute this to knowing their market, or trying to market something without true conviction behind it. Either way, it adds up to not convincing the Schiit principals terribly easily that foregoing DSD is a bad marketing choice. We will see how it goes. It might also be that their "Loki" DSD DAC doesn't measure up sonically to the ones from those other DAC makers! Link to comment
PeterSt Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Ah, but this I think is an "English" (language) thing. Not "closest" (in contrast to "farthest") form but "closed" (in contrast to "open") form. Here I take the use of "closed" to mean something like "able to be exactly reconstructed mathematically," thus provably retaining all original samples. Whooops Lush^3-e Lush^2 Blaxius^2.5 Ethernet^3 HDMI^2 XLR^2 XXHighEnd (developer) Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer) Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer) Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier) Link to comment
bhobba Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 This is a Schiit thread, and I don't want to derail it. But just for clarification Bill, you know the old Phasure NOS1 very well, and the newer NOS1a not at all by the sound of things. Sure. But its obvious you are missing my point. Just so there is no misunderstanding I will repeat it. I have been at many comparisons and in every case, and I mean every case, personal preference plays a major role. There is zero doubt it will be the same with the new Phasure or this DAC. I am pretty sure there is a guy out my way (Anthony) with the new Phasure so it can be included in a comparison. Thanks Bill Link to comment
esimms86 Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Someone who famously disdained that advice was Steve Jobs. Someone else who did so was Fred Horowitz. Who? Exactly! Thanks, I'll be here all week.... Just off the top of my head re my own thinking: If I were considering a new DAC purchase, I would think seriously about buying a PCM-only DAC like the Phasure or (depending on how it actually sounds) Yggdrasil, then DIY-ing or having someone build me a DSC2 when Miska comes out with his next design. "Best of both worlds" sort of thing, to me. But then I doubt I've ever reflected majority sentiment on much of anything, so if I were a manufacturer I wouldn't pay me much attention! If I were a manufacturer I wouldn't start out by trying to sell a DAC to someone who's already done a splendid DIY build of his own. ; ) Link to comment
Ned Kelly Posted January 10, 2015 Author Share Posted January 10, 2015 $2,300 and no DSD playback? Time to go back to the design drawing board. Fine - I didnt want this to be an extension of the long-running argument re the merits of DSD, but it seems that several here want to focus on that. Mike and Jason have made their feelings re DSD very clear - basically, until the recording industry begins to embrace native DSD recordings, they see no point in upsampling existing PCM to DSD or ripping from SACDs. I agree with them 100% that the vast majority of the genuine DSD catalog is from obscure artists, but when push comes to shove I want everything in my library to sound as good as it can possibly be, and that includes 256K AAC downloads from iTunes. I've experimented with DSD upsampling via JRMC19 into each of the following DACs: - Chord Hugo - Oppo BDP-105D - Marantz SA-14S1 - Sony PHA-2 - ifi iDSD Nano None of the above are considered best-of-breed DSD DACs, but for me it's telling that I actually prefer Sony's own playback software with the PHA-2 using DSD samples downloaded from the net to any of the other DACs playing upsampled PCM in JRMC. Whether its placebo or not, all of this was turned on its head when I downloaded Audirvana 2.0.8 and realised that I prefer the 'standard' playback from A+ to all of the above - that may simply prove that I'm a man with cloth ears, an empty wallet and way too many toys, but there you have it. ted_b and others here may well be able to 'convert' me to the merits of DSD with the right combination of gear and DSD files, but they will never be able to magically transform the bulk of my library to something it never was when it came out of the recording 'factory'. I've read all the theory on the merits of upsampling, but to date I'm just not feeling it. I agree with others that we need a lot more comparisons between a production Yggdrasil and some of its competitors but its worth noting that the arrival of SACD didnt stop the ongoing development of 16/44.1 playback technology. Just as Blu-Ray isnt necessary for every film, SACD would have been overkill for a large percentage of the rock and pop recordings I own from the 70s on - with the obvious exception of Pink Floyd and artists of that calibre. Any fantasies I might have around Rush going back into the studio to record an album for a niche market are exactly that - fantasies. The best I can hope for is a genuine 24/96 download sourced from the master tapes - not holding my breath re native DSD recordings from a well-known artist anytime soon : happy to hear otherwise. Just one more headphone and I know I can kick this nasty little habit ! Link to comment
Allan F Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 Someone who famously disdained that advice was Steve Jobs. Steve Jobs developed products that consumers were looking to buy. They just didn't know it yet. "Relax, it's only hi-fi. There's never been a hi-fi emergency." - Roy Hall "Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." - William Bruce Cameron Link to comment
Sam Lord Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 Steve Jobs developed products that consumers were looking to buy. They just didn't know it yet. He developed a half-product called iTunes. It wasn't what people were looking to buy, but he was first with some long-sought features. iTunes has in that way successfully screwed both the consumer and the musician. IMO. Mac Mini 2012 with 2.3 GHz i5 CPU and 16GB RAM running newest OS10.9x and Signalyst HQ Player software (occasionally JRMC), ethernet to Cisco SG100-08 GigE switch, ethernet to SOtM SMS100 Miniserver in audio room, sending via short 1/2 meter AQ Cinnamon USB to Oppo 105D, feeding balanced outputs to 2x Bel Canto S300 amps which vertically biamp ATC SCM20SL speakers, 2x Velodyne DD12+ subs. Each side is mounted vertically on 3-tiered Sound Anchor ADJ2 stands: ATC (top), amp (middle), sub (bottom), Mogami, Koala, Nordost, Mosaic cables, split at the preamp outputs with splitters. All transducers are thoroughly and lovingly time aligned for the listening position. Link to comment
4est Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 I would think that something like the lampi is more on par with the Phasure. Not to dis Miska's work, but he himself has not promoted it as an ultimate manifestation of his concepts. Someone who famously disdained that advice was Steve Jobs. Someone else who did so was Fred Horowitz. Who? Exactly! Thanks, I'll be here all week.... Just off the top of my head re my own thinking: If I were considering a new DAC purchase, I would think seriously about buying a PCM-only DAC like the Phasure or (depending on how it actually sounds) Yggdrasil, then DIY-ing or having someone build me a DSC2 when Miska comes out with his next design. "Best of both worlds" sort of thing, to me. But then I doubt I've ever reflected majority sentiment on much of anything, so if I were a manufacturer I wouldn't pay me much attention! Forrest: Win10 i9 9900KS/GTX1060 HQPlayer4>Win10 NAA DSD>Pavel's DSC2.6>Bent Audio TAP> Parasound JC1>"Naked" Quad ESL63/Tannoy PS350B subs<100Hz Link to comment
Jud Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 I would think that something like the lampi is more on par with the Phasure. Not to dis Miska's work, but he himself has not promoted it as an ultimate manifestation of his concepts. The cost of the lampi is a lot less on par with my wallet! For R2R PCM DACs, I don't see a DIY project I'd be happy with (so far, Soekris' DAC on DIY Audio seems to be a lot of discussion, but I'm not hearing of someone who's built one and talked about the performance; also, I think Miska has mentioned some questions about the design). For DSD, a DSC2 (i.e., once Miska's had the chance to do the second iteration of his design ideas) seems like it would offer the opportunity for very good sound at an affordable price level. One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
Jud Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 I'm a man with cloth ears, an empty wallet and way too many toys I want the T-shirt! One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
mav52 Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 He developed a half-product called iTunes. It wasn't what people were looking to buy, but he was first with some long-sought features. iTunes has in that way successfully screwed both the consumer and the musician. IMO. not to mention: 800 million accounts (iTunes users) The Truth Is Out There Link to comment
matthias Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 The Yggradasil is not yet listed on the Schiit-Homepage. Matt "I want to know why the musicians are on stage, not where". (John Farlowe) Link to comment
Miska Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 So say the filtering is lossless, meaning that the original can be restored from the filtered data, I think it is allowed to call that bit perfect because it is about the consistency. I have also bunch of such filters, quickly counting maybe four. But I don't see any special advantage in such, because by definition it also retains all the ringing from the original decimation filter. Which is bad, because most of the ADC chip and mastering decimation filters are bad. I think fixing the crap from RedBook is essential for getting good sound out of such material... Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers Link to comment
semente Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 He developed a half-product called iTunes. It wasn't what people were looking to buy, but he was first with some long-sought features. iTunes has in that way successfully screwed both the consumer and the musician. IMO. I have also bunch of such filters, quickly counting maybe four. But I don't see any special advantage in such, because by definition it also retains all the ringing from the original decimation filter. Which is bad, because most of the ADC chip and mastering decimation filters are bad. I think fixing the crap from RedBook is essential for getting good sound out of such material... And what in your opinion is/are the best way/ways to do that (filtering)? R "Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira de Pascoaes HQPlayer Desktop / Mac mini → Intona 7054 → RME ADI-2 DAC FS (DSD256) Link to comment
Jud Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 The Yggradasil is not yet listed on the Schiit-Homepage. Matt It won't be for some while, perhaps not until March-April. Rev 1.0 boards and other parts were just released to manufacturing. One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
4est Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 Agreed. For starters, maybe use the Sonore USB>I2S device? I am not intending to knock his design, and maybe the clocking and such are not as important. It is my desire to build one if time permits, but it is clear the intent was to exemplify his SOTA software on inexpensive "DAC-chipless" hardware. The cost of the lampi is a lot less on par with my wallet! For R2R PCM DACs, I don't see a DIY project I'd be happy with (so far, Soekris' DAC on DIY Audio seems to be a lot of discussion, but I'm not hearing of someone who's built one and talked about the performance; also, I think Miska has mentioned some questions about the design). For DSD, a DSC2 (i.e., once Miska's had the chance to do the second iteration of his design ideas) seems like it would offer the opportunity for very good sound at an affordable price level. Forrest: Win10 i9 9900KS/GTX1060 HQPlayer4>Win10 NAA DSD>Pavel's DSC2.6>Bent Audio TAP> Parasound JC1>"Naked" Quad ESL63/Tannoy PS350B subs<100Hz Link to comment
Miska Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 And what in your opinion is/are the best way/ways to do that (filtering)? I was referring to use of apodizing filters to remove or reduce the ringing present in source data... Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers Link to comment
matthias Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 It won't be for some while, perhaps not until March-April. Rev 1.0 boards and other parts were just released to manufacturing. This thread is making a great fuss about a product not yet launched. Matt "I want to know why the musicians are on stage, not where". (John Farlowe) Link to comment
jabbr Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 Agreed. For starters, maybe use the Sonore USB>I2S device? I am not intending to knock his design, and maybe the clocking and such are not as important. It is my desire to build one if time permits, but it is clear the intent was to exemplify his SOTA software on inexpensive "DAC-chipless" hardware. Talking about the DSC1 and hopefully soon to be specified DSC2 ... the ability to perform at a high level on "inexpensive 'DAC-chipless' hardware" is a fantastic demonstration of the benefits of the HQPlayer software. Think about it, the software is really cheap next to $8 - 12000 DAC hardware. Custom room treatments for headphone users. Link to comment
matthias Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 Talking about the DSC1 and hopefully soon to be specified DSC2 ... the ability to perform at a high level on "inexpensive 'DAC-chipless' hardware" is a fantastic demonstration of the benefits of the HQPlayer software. Think about it, the software is really cheap next to $8 - 12000 DAC hardware. +1 Matt "I want to know why the musicians are on stage, not where". (John Farlowe) Link to comment
wisnon Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 The cost of the lampi is a lot less on par with my wallet! For R2R PCM DACs, I don't see a DIY project I'd be happy with (so far, Soekris' DAC on DIY Audio seems to be a lot of discussion, but I'm not hearing of someone who's built one and talked about the performance; also, I think Miska has mentioned some questions about the design). For DSD, a DSC2 (i.e., once Miska's had the chance to do the second iteration of his design ideas) seems like it would offer the opportunity for very good sound at an affordable price level.A Lampi DSD only Dac costs a bit less than a Phasure... Link to comment
wisnon Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 This thread is making a great fuss about a product not yet launched. Matt Not too bad then, as the fuss over at Headfi has been going on for months before. LoL Link to comment
bmoura Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 Not too bad then, as the fuss over at Headfi has been going on for months before. LoL And it's certainly more enjoyable to be listening to high resolution music on a product like the Lampizator DSD DAC or their new Amber DAC (on sale now for $1,995) vs. talking about how a future DAC might sound. Link to comment
4est Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 No doubt about it! Talking about the DSC1 and hopefully soon to be specified DSC2 ... the ability to perform at a high level on "inexpensive 'DAC-chipless' hardware" is a fantastic demonstration of the benefits of the HQPlayer software. Think about it, the software is really cheap next to $8 - 12000 DAC hardware. Forrest: Win10 i9 9900KS/GTX1060 HQPlayer4>Win10 NAA DSD>Pavel's DSC2.6>Bent Audio TAP> Parasound JC1>"Naked" Quad ESL63/Tannoy PS350B subs<100Hz Link to comment
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