Jump to content
IGNORED

Cheap streamer v expensive - is there a difference?


Recommended Posts

Cause that would have explained why streaming FLAC as LPCM sounds different to you.

 

 

That is a simpler explanation- that is the SBT simply sounds better when fed LPCM than FLAC files. I am not opposed to FLAC files by any means, but I am not an enthusiast for them. I prefer AIFF, ALAC, or DSD files.

 

-Paul

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

Link to comment
That is a simpler explanation- that is the SBT simply sounds better when fed LPCM than FLAC files. I am not opposed to FLAC files by any means, but I am not an enthusiast for them. I prefer AIFF, ALAC, or DSD files.

 

DSD excluded, it was proven during beta test of SBT (and earlier version of SB) that there is no difference in sound, whether feeding an external DAC or using the built-in DAC by both measuring and doing listening tests except for two execptions;

Feeding LPCM would stutter on WiFi and when FLAC files had replay gain tags and replay gain was enabled for FLAC but not for WAV (i.e. LPCM). This thread Sound quality between wav and flac has some of the info and point to other threads.

 

So not saying you don't hear what you do, believe me but that would not be the simpler explanation.

Link to comment

Proven by whom, may I ask? Did you do this testing, or are you just repeating what other people have said?

 

If you are talking on the Slimdevice forums, I suggest you check with John Swenson and Triode (if he is still around), and there are more than a few references on there to configuring the SBT to make sonic changes. All of which are rather easily proven to have effective sonic changes.

 

If you go back on this forum, you will find many people who proved that there was an audible difference in the SBT from different formats, and with tuning the system, and using external DACS, and using USB.

 

I am sorry, but the far far simpler explanation is that at least some of the file formats do make a difference when streamed to the SBT from a server. I personally can duplicate that here easily, and have had had dozens of other people here confirm there are differences, blind. Not everyone agreed as to which one was better however. (shrug)

 

-Paul

 

 

-Paul

 

 

 

DSD excluded, it was proven during beta test of SBT (and earlier version of SB) that there is no difference in sound, whether feeding an external DAC or using the built-in DAC by both measuring and doing listening tests except for two execptions;

Feeding LPCM would stutter on WiFi and when FLAC files had replay gain tags and replay gain was enabled for FLAC but not for WAV (i.e. LPCM). This thread Sound quality between wav and flac has some of the info and point to other threads.

 

So not saying you don't hear what you do, believe me but that would not be the simpler explanation.

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

Link to comment
If you are talking on the Slimdevice forums, I suggest you check with John Swenson and Triode (if he is still around), and there are more than a few references on there to configuring the SBT to make sonic changes. All of which are rather easily proven to have effective sonic changes.

 

If you go back on this forum, you will find many people who proved that there was an audible difference in the SBT from different formats, and with tuning the system, and using external DACS, and using USB.

 

I am sorry, but the far far simpler explanation is that at least some of the file formats do make a difference when streamed to the SBT from a server. I personally can duplicate that here easily, and have had had dozens of other people here confirm there are differences, blind. Not everyone agreed as to which one was better however. (shrug)

 

-Paul

 

 

-Paul

 

It was all done during beta test of the SBT, I did not do these particular measurements myself but have done similar measurements and test with the Transporter and SB3 back in 2007, all conclusive no sound difference when streaming FLAC as FLAC, FLAC as LPCM or WAV (i.e. LPCM) direct unless done on a too slow WLAN.

 

Why don't read the thread instead? Among others, John has written in it.

 

Besides, I said it sounded identical in the context of streaming differerent formats (lossless) whether using internal or external DAC or USB vs SPDIF for that matter. Not that the internal DAC sounds the same as an external DAC or USB the same as S/PDIF.

 

Simple for you perhaps...

Link to comment

P.S. I just loaded the latest version of Vortexbox to check where the settings to transcode are, and for the life of me, I can't find them. My notes did not indicate I had to do anything special to make this happen, but perhaps I am forgetful. I did have this reference in my notes:

 

Logitech Squeezebox Touch network music player Page 3 | Stereophile.com

 

Other mods and tweaks have also appeared, some more invasive of the operation of the Touch than others. For example, because the Touch's AC supply is a switching wall wart, which are well known to be electrically noisy, several companies now offer linear power supplies to replace it. I couldn't discern any significant change in the Touch's performance with such a supply that I had built some years before, but I felt happier without another switching module in close proximity to the rest of my audio equipment.

 

There are many other ways to relieve the Touch processor of unnecessary tasks; for example, by having the Squeezebox Server on the host convert FLAC to PCM, disabling the analog outputs if you're using the digital (or vice versa), shutting down extraneous functions, and using Ethernet rather than WiFi where possible. The first three require unofficial firmware patches; the last, of course, increases the data load on the transmission, which might be an issue for some WLANs, particularly if you have many other WiFi networks active in your environment. I tried only the first and the last, but both made incremental improvements in clarity and detail. Needless to say, the computer-audio community is already teeming with ideas for adding features to the Touch; you'll find lots of comments, advice, and links at Computer Audiophile - CA - Where HiFi and High Tech Converge.

 

In fact, it was there that I learned that John Swenson, also a contributor to both the Audio Asylum and the Logitech Squeezebox forum, had modified the Touch to allow its USB port, nominally only an input, to output audio. This greatly intrigued me; I had just taken delivery of Ayre Acoustics' new DX-5 universal player, which has DACs and an asynchronous USB input similar to their QB-9 USB DAC, which thrilled Wes Phillips and was Stereophile's 2009 Product of the Year. After tracking down Swenson, I asked him to send me a copy of the instructions for altering changing the Touch's configuration file, which he did, along with a few caveats, warnings, and denials. The tweak is unofficial, and not quite ready for prime time: It defeats all of the Touch's other outputs and recognizes only the specific USB source for which you've configured it. Fortunately, it's reversible by repatching or with a reset of the Touch to factory condition (easily performed with a rear-panel rest button). I forged ahead because . . . well, heck, it was a review sample (footnote 2).

 

In my opinion, this is the killer app for audiophiles. I'll have more to say about the Ayre DX-5 in a future issue (as will Michael Fremer), but this is relevant to Logitech Squeezebox Touch: it canbe part of a state-of-the-art music system. With downloaded hi-def files sent from my PC via the network to the Squeezebox Touch, then to the Ayre DX-5's USB input, I enjoyed two-channel sound that, in my experience, was unsurpassed. It is rumored that the Touch's hardware might even be able to stream 24/176.4 and 24/192 files via USB without downsampling. Although that's a pipe dream, it suggests that the Touch has yet to reveal its full potential. Dare I dream of multichannel?

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

Link to comment
P.S. I just loaded the latest version of Vortexbox to check where the settings to transcode are, and for the life of me, I can't find them. My notes did not indicate I had to do anything special to make this happen, but perhaps I am forgetful.

 

Really?

 

It in the LMS Settings under Advanced -> File Types

While you're at it, check Player - Audio -> Volume Adjustment/Replay Gain...

Link to comment
Really?

 

It in the LMS Settings under Advanced -> File Types

While you're at it, check Player - Audio -> Volume Adjustment/Replay Gain...

 

Thank you for the setting for File Types. I meant I did not have to load any third party or special plugins, such as for the BBC player, etc.

 

I've already told you replay gain isn't set, neither on my production system or on this little play system I just loaded. I notice you make lots of such comments on the Vortexbox forum and on the Slimdevices forum you pointed to. I am a little surprised that those forums these days. I have not frequented them in a few years.

 

Still does not change the fact that the SBT sounds different when you feed it different filetypes.

 

-Paul

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

Link to comment
Thank you for the setting for File Types. I meant I did not have to load any third party or special plugins, such as for the BBC player, etc.

 

Not following you here, what about 3rd party?

 

I've already told you replay gain isn't set, neither on my production system or on this little play system I just loaded.

 

You have stated that you have tested LPCM vs FLAC from LMS extensively and how certain you are that it "sounds" better.

Yet you couldn't remember where to set LPCM streaming for FLAC, it made sense to point you to where to check/set replay gain.

 

I notice you make lots of such comments on the Vortexbox forum and on the Slimdevices forum you pointed to.

 

Excuse me but I have never ever been to the Vortex forum!

 

I am a little surprised that those forums these days. I have not frequented them in a few years.

 

That those forums what?

 

Still does not change the fact that the SBT sounds different when you feed it different filetypes.

 

You're confusing sounding and perceiving.

Or can point me to some proper test that have proven that there really IS a difference and I'll stand corrected.

 

Good thing is that at least there is no harm in letting the server decode flac to LPCM apart from network bandwidth forcing people to use wired LAN even if they might not have to otherwise.

Link to comment
Not following you here, what about 3rd party?

 

 

 

You have stated that you have tested LPCM vs FLAC from LMS extensively and how certain you are that it "sounds" better.

Yet you couldn't remember where to set LPCM streaming for FLAC, it made sense to point you to where to check/set replay gain.

 

Since I have not done anything more than load files to and play from the Vortexbox sitting upstairs in over a year, I think I can be forgiven for forgetting where the exact setting I am looking for is. Especially in the newer version of Vortexbox which has new options.

 

 

Excuse me but I have never ever been to the Vortex forum!
Sorry, mixed you up with Gary.

 

 

You're confusing sounding and perceiving.

Or can point me to some proper test that have proven that there really IS a difference and I'll stand corrected.

 

Good thing is that at least there is no harm in letting the server decode flac to LPCM apart from network bandwidth forcing people to use wired LAN even if they might not have to otherwise.[/Quote]

 

Since your intention here is to be snarky and you didn't bother to search for any of the testing that has already been done, no.

 

As for needing to use a wired connection just because you are streaming LPCM instead of FLACs - you have something wrong in your network. Been doing that for years around here with no issues. Then again, those are on networks that I setup. They work correctly.

 

For differences in file formats, I again suggest you do a search here to find what you are looking for.

 

As for your assumption you know what you are talking about and have some right to be snarky - well, that assumption appears to be unfounded.

 

By the way, my eyesight is failing to some degree, and it is terribly easy for me to miss typos or issues like you found in that last message. That again, is no reason to assume you know what you are talking about.

 

-Paul

 

P.S. For "third party" I was thinking the setting might have been in DLNA or some other third party plugin. There are hundreds of them for Vortexbox, including the EDO changes which enable one to use the SBT to drive USB modems. Sweet stuff.

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

Link to comment

Your profound lack of trying to give any evidence to your claims, not even a link to the tests you mention, speaks for itself

 

"I was thinking the setting might have been in DLNA"

 

Settings for LMS in DLNA settings? Ignorance is blizz - for you!

 

PS Gary and Johann share one letter, how can you mix that up?

Link to comment
Your profound lack of trying to give any evidence to your claims, not even a link to the tests you mention, speaks for itself

 

"I was thinking the setting might have been in DLNA"

 

Settings for LMS in DNLA settings? Ignorance is blizz - for you!

Keep wearing the foil hat!

 

It is clear that YOU Sir don't know what you'

 

Are you just trying to be an idiot? You have never installed any third party plugins to LMS? And you claim such detailed knowledge of it? Hint.

 

Screen Shot 2015-01-01 at 2.07.39 PM.png

 

You can scroll down I assume, and type in the address of other archives if necessary? Try searching for Serviio.

 

I have no lack of trying anything in this subject - do you also not know how to do a search? Probably not, but why don't you review this four or five year old discussion before you start being so obnoxious? Easy to find with a quick search.

 

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f11-software/techie-how-does-music-player-software-make-bit-perfect-data-streams-sound-different-8912/

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

Link to comment
Are you just trying to be an idiot? You have never installed any third party plugins to LMS? And you claim such detailed knowledge of it? Hint.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]16182[/ATTACH]

 

I have no lack of trying anything in this subject - do you also not know how to do a search? Probably not, but why don't you review this four or five year old discussion before you start being so obnoxious? Easy to find with a quick search.

 

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f11-software/techie-how-does-music-player-software-make-bit-perfect-data-streams-sound-different-8912/

 

Name calling, real mature!

 

Why on earth would core transcoding settings for LMS be in a plugin?

Link to comment
LMS is not based on UPnP nor DLNA at all!

Who's the idiot here?

 

Who ever said it was?

 

Which is why I referenced plugins - like the one that comes embedded in LMS to hand DLNA? And which could potentially involve transcoding?

 

By the way, why don't you go listen to some music on a SBT? Try transcoding the FLAC files to LPCM and see if you hear a difference. That would be the *smart* thing to do.

 

-Paul

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

Link to comment
Who ever said it was?

 

So knowing that, you still look for LMS core settings in the UPnP/DLNA?

Very *smart*

 

I would test if I hadn't done it before, I hear no difference nor can it be measured. That has also been the conclusion in all testing done during development of SBT (and the other SBs). Feel free to say that you hear the difference and some others do to, I'm sure you do. But please don't preach that as the truth without presenting scientific and/or engeneering proof supporting that.

Link to comment
So knowing that, you still look for LMS core settings in the UPnP/DLNA?

Very *smart*

 

I would test if I hadn't done it before, I hear no difference nor can it be measured. That has also been the conclusion in all testing done during development of SBT (and the other SBs). Feel free to say that you hear the difference and some others do to, I'm sure you do. But please don't preach that as the truth without presenting scientific and/or engeneering proof supporting that.

 

No. Guess you will just have to learn how to live with being wrong.

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

Link to comment
No. Guess you will just have to learn how to live with being wrong.

 

How old are you, 8 or less?

 

BTW, the thread you linked too presented no support to your claims of proper testing of LPCM vs FLAC, none what so ever.

Did you just post that to waste my time?

Link to comment
How old are you, 8 or less?

 

BTW, the thread you linked too presented no support to your claims of proper testing of LPCM vs FLAC, none what so ever.

Did you just post that to waste my time?

 

You seem quite able to waste my time as well as everybody else's, without any assistance. Cherry pick your subjects too. What a surprise. The internet is awash with plenty of self proclaimed experts on any subject one can imagine. What fickle god sent you here?

 

You're quite welcome to your own opinions. You just can't have your own facts.

 

Basically, this is a hobby. I'll be glad to do all the testing you seem to feel you deserve, even though you won't be bothered to do a simple Google search. So long as you pay my professional rates and the lab/equipment rental/testing center costs. Even offer a money back guarantee on my fees if the testing protocols and results are judged to be flawed by those I recognize as peers or better. Plenty of those right here in the Austin area, a few of whom think me hopeless for not spending 20x what I spend on audio.

 

Basically- put up or shut up.

 

Oh by the way, before you claim all this testing has already been done again, produce it. If you can't produce it, you have no basis at all for your crazy claims.

 

P.S.- there! Now you hqve garnerd an entire six minutes of my attention this day, three of which were spent on this message. Make you feel better? You may have the last word as well. Seriously

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

Link to comment
f you look earlier in this thread I used a spectrum analyzer to measure the clock going into the DAC chip on a Touch. This doesn't directly measure the jitter, it measures the sidebands caused by the jitter. I could not discern any difference between decoding PCM or FLAC in the Touch. This jitter on this clock was so low the sidebands were below the noise floor of the spectrum analyzer. There might be differences in the sidebands, but the tool I have is not sufficient to measure it. There are tools that are better than this and might be better able to see it but they are VERY expensive and WAY WAY outside of what I can afford! (this was a 30K analyzer that I found used on ebay for $900, its rather rare to find 100K ones like that!)

 

And yes there is a reclocking flop for the clock that goes into the DAC and and a flop for the S/PDIF stream. I was measuring the DAC clock after the reclocking flop.

 

I think its interesting to note that I DID see significant sidebands on the DAC clock when the headphones were plugged in, which does seem to show that different electrical loads on the board CAN affect the jitter of the clock.

 

John S.

 

#273

Link to comment

Thanks for looking into this Paul. Interesting discussion btw, it's an insight to read both yours and Johann's comments. !

Miggyboys

HiFi: Marantz CD6000 OSE CD player, Logitech Squeezebox Touch streamer, NAD C350 amplifier, Denon TU-260LII tuner, Technics SL-1200 MKII turntable, Audiolab M-DAC DAC, Tannoy Revolution R2 speakers, Vortexbox music server, QED Silver Anniversary bi wire, Various Ixos / Ecosse interconnects, Optimum stand/rack.

AV: Sharp LC-46LE831E TV (calibrated with DVE), Denon AVR-2310 AV Receiver, Sony BDP-S5000ES Blu Ray player, SkyHD, Mordaunt Short Genie 5.1 speakers, various QED & IXOS interconnects, QED Silver anniversary speaker cable.

Link to comment
Really?

 

It in the LMS Settings under Advanced -> File Types

While you're at it, check Player - Audio -> Volume Adjustment/Replay Gain...

 

Thanks Johann!

Miggyboys

HiFi: Marantz CD6000 OSE CD player, Logitech Squeezebox Touch streamer, NAD C350 amplifier, Denon TU-260LII tuner, Technics SL-1200 MKII turntable, Audiolab M-DAC DAC, Tannoy Revolution R2 speakers, Vortexbox music server, QED Silver Anniversary bi wire, Various Ixos / Ecosse interconnects, Optimum stand/rack.

AV: Sharp LC-46LE831E TV (calibrated with DVE), Denon AVR-2310 AV Receiver, Sony BDP-S5000ES Blu Ray player, SkyHD, Mordaunt Short Genie 5.1 speakers, various QED & IXOS interconnects, QED Silver anniversary speaker cable.

Link to comment

Paul and Johann...happy new year to both of you. So you have differences in opinion - let's leave that behind!

 

Many thanks to both of you for your viewpoints and instruction.

Miggyboys

HiFi: Marantz CD6000 OSE CD player, Logitech Squeezebox Touch streamer, NAD C350 amplifier, Denon TU-260LII tuner, Technics SL-1200 MKII turntable, Audiolab M-DAC DAC, Tannoy Revolution R2 speakers, Vortexbox music server, QED Silver Anniversary bi wire, Various Ixos / Ecosse interconnects, Optimum stand/rack.

AV: Sharp LC-46LE831E TV (calibrated with DVE), Denon AVR-2310 AV Receiver, Sony BDP-S5000ES Blu Ray player, SkyHD, Mordaunt Short Genie 5.1 speakers, various QED & IXOS interconnects, QED Silver anniversary speaker cable.

Link to comment

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now



×
×
  • Create New...