Cheap streamer v expensive - is there a difference?

[miggyboys]

Hi everyone!

 

I use a Logitech Squeezebox Touch streamer in my HiFi setup. But does the quality of a streamer make a difference to sound quality and would I see an improvement if I invested in a better streamer such as:

 

Musical Fidelity M1 CLiC

Cyrus Streamline2 Streamer

Linn Sneaky DSM

Naim XXXX

 

I'm talking about things like jitter and errors. I'd be interested to hear your views, especially from users with budget / mid price / high end streamers. Note that I'm not referring to DACs as I have a separate one. This question is purely about the streaming device.

 

You can see the setup I've got below in my sign off [Note that I'm slowly updating my setup with my next purchase likely to be an amplifier (Creek Destiny 2, Roksan Caspian M2, Naim NAIT XS 2 or Rega Elicit-R) followed by speakers (Spendor A5, PMC GB1i, Neat, Dynaudio, DALI, Focal etc)].

 

Thanks in advance for your replies!

[prot]

Better sound, maybe.

Better price/quality ratio, almost surely not.

And btw, lots of people swear that a regulated linear power supply significantly improves the squeezebox ... just google it.

[photonblur]

Love my little squeeze. Have you installed EDO and LMS upgrades? You have to factor in

that the marketing power of manufacturers and for profit audio reviewers is aligned to

berate a product that is no longer produced yet brillantly supported and advanced for

free by software geniuses. I have listened to friends tweaked macs and would not trade.

The iceing on the cake is rock solid Tidal via ickStream. You have a gem.

 

pb-

[Paul R]

What are you streaming to the little SBT? Linear PCM? If so, a cleaner power supply, and some of the mods that allow you to stream to a USB DAC might be of significant benefit. Significant here not meaning "night and day" - but rather "noticeable and an increase in your enjoyment."

 

If you are not streaming LPCM, try sending that from your Vortexbox. Bet you a nickel it brings a grin to your face.

 

-Paul

[tranz]

Yes. But how much value is up to your ears. If you want to compare to a high priced one, check out the Naim NDS.

[miggyboys]

Better sound, maybe.

Better price/quality ratio, almost surely not.

And btw, lots of people swear that a regulated linear power supply significantly improves the squeezebox ... just google it.

 

I've seen the reviews...interesting....

[miggyboys]

Hi photonblur - I've installed the EDO upgrade, not the LMS. I play 24 bit 192kHz music through my system. I agree, the third party apps by developers out there are fantastic. I love the functionality of it and the screen is excellent - other manufacturers need to put better graphical screens into their products.

[miggyboys]

What are you streaming to the little SBT? Linear PCM? If so, a cleaner power supply, and some of the mods that allow you to stream to a USB DAC might be of significant benefit. Significant here not meaning "night and day" - but rather "noticeable and an increase in your enjoyment."

 

If you are not streaming LPCM, try sending that from your Vortexbox. Bet you a nickel it brings a grin to your face.

 

-Paul

 

Hi Paul, good points. My music is all ripped to FLAC and I use ethernet to stream to the SBT - this then goes to my DAC via digital coaxial. I understand PCM/WAV may sound better but I want the metadata, so I'll stick with FLAC.

 

One thing I haven't tried is using Asynchronous USB from the SBT to the DAC, which I really should, but the Audiolab M-DAC is pretty strong at reclocking, which it does, from memory, three times. Still, better HiFi is always about small gains :-)

 

Given the way the GBP is going against the USD, I'd be happy to bet you some nickels though I think I'd lose, as it seems LPCM/WAV may sound better that FLAC!

[miggyboys]

Yes. But how much value is up to your ears. If you want to compare to a high priced one, check out the Naim NDS.

 

Hi tranz - I read the reviews for this when it came out, and they were strong. Have you got one or heard one just out of interest?

[tranz]

Hi tranz - I read the reviews for this when it came out, and they were strong. Have you got one or heard one just out of interest?

 

Hi miggyboys,

 

I just realized that the OP was looking for streamers without DACs. Ooops, sorry.

 

Yes, I was able to take one home for audition with the separate psu. Very smooth sounding. The DAC was not as clear and 3D as e.g. an MSB, but it sounded very, very good. Not fatiguing at all. Much better than most USB input DACs I heard.

 

The psu hums, which I hate and it would need to be in a closet somewhere. I do not like their controller software, but there are many better ones out there for free.

 

Cheers

[firedog]

You can use dbpoweramp to convert Flac to "uncompressed flac" (not the same as flac 0 compression) and then you have an uncompressed file (like wav) but with metadata.

 

Hi Paul, good points. My music is all ripped to FLAC and I use ethernet to stream to the SBT - this then goes to my DAC via digital coaxial. I understand PCM/WAV may sound better but I want the metadata, so I'll stick with FLAC.

 

One thing I haven't tried is using Asynchronous USB from the SBT to the DAC, which I really should, but the Audiolab M-DAC is pretty strong at reclocking, which it does, from memory, three times. Still, better HiFi is always about small gains :-)

 

Given the way the GBP is going against the USD, I'd be happy to bet you some nickels though I think I'd lose, as it seems LPCM/WAV may sound better that FLAC!

[Paul R]

Hi Paul, good points. My music is all ripped to FLAC and I use ethernet to stream to the SBT - this then goes to my DAC via digital coaxial. I understand PCM/WAV may sound better but I want the metadata, so I'll stick with FLAC.

 

One thing I haven't tried is using Asynchronous USB from the SBT to the DAC, which I really should, but the Audiolab M-DAC is pretty strong at reclocking, which it does, from memory, three times. Still, better HiFi is always about small gains :-)

 

Given the way the GBP is going against the USD, I'd be happy to bet you some nickels though I think I'd lose, as it seems LPCM/WAV may sound better that FLAC!

 

You don't understand. . There is a setting in Vortexbox

that will cause the streamed file to he transcoded befor it streams. Best of both worlds.

[miggyboys]

You can use dbpoweramp to convert Flac to "uncompressed flac" (not the same as flac 0 compression) and then you have an uncompressed file (like wav) but with metadata.

 

How advantageous and better sounding is uncompressed Flac?

[firedog]

How advantageous and better sounding is uncompressed Flac?

Whether it sounds better or not is a matter of debate. But it enables an uncompressed file (essentially identical to wav), but WITH metadata. If your reason for not using WAV is metadata, then uncompressed flac is the solution.

[miggyboys]

You don't understand. . There is a setting in Vortexbox

that will cause the streamed file to he transcoded befor it streams. Best of both worlds.

 

You're right, I don't! But I'll check your suggestion. Could you elaborate? Are you saying the Flac file will be transcoded and be streamed as LPCM? If that's the case, how is it being streamed at present or what are the options for other forms of streaming?

 

Thanks for your advice.

[miggyboys]

Hi miggyboys,

 

I just realized that the OP was looking for streamers without DACs. Ooops, sorry.

 

Yes, I was able to take one home for audition with the separate psu. Very smooth sounding. The DAC was not as clear and 3D as e.g. an MSB, but it sounded very, very good. Not fatiguing at all. Much better than most USB input DACs I heard.

 

The psu hums, which I hate and it would need to be in a closet somewhere. I do not like their controller software, but there are many better ones out there for free.

 

Cheers

 

Hi tranz

 

Correct, streamer only. Obviously with the rise of DACs and streaming, a lot of the units are bundled together but for separate DACS, there's still a market for good streamers. Nice to hear your feedback on the Naim all the same.

[Paul R]

You're right, I don't! But I'll check your suggestion. Could you elaborate? Are you saying the Flac file will be transcoded and be streamed as LPCM? If that's the case, how is it being streamed at present or what are the options for other forms of streaming?

 

Thanks for your advice.

 

Wouldn't you know I don't have my Vortexbox available to me where I am physically at right now? In any case,

 

What is being streamed to the SBT, unless you have changed a default, is whatever format the file is in right now. The SBT is being forced to do the work of decoding the file before playing it. You an do that on the server - there is a setting in Vortexbox - and the SBT then just recognizes the stream as LPCM and plays it. Sounds better because the SBT is not dong anywhere near as much work, even though the network load is a little higher.

 

If nobody tells you the setting before I get home, I will look it up and post it back. Caveat, I am a few releases back in Vortexbox, and the selection may have changed location.

 

-Paul

[prot]

How advantageous and better sounding is uncompressed Flac?

 

It occupies ~twice the hdd space and sounds the same. The only plus is that you can properly tag it (as opposed to wav)

[miggyboys]

It occupies ~twice the hdd space and sounds the same. The only plus is that you can properly tag it (as opposed to wav)

 

So would you also say that uncompressed WAV sounds the same as FLAC?

[johann]

So would you also say that uncompressed WAV sounds the same as FLAC?

 

Absolutely!

[miggyboys]

Wouldn't you know I don't have my Vortexbox available to me where I am physically at right now? In any case,

 

What is being streamed to the SBT, unless you have changed a default, is whatever format the file is in right now. The SBT is being forced to do the work of decoding the file before playing it. You an do that on the server - there is a setting in Vortexbox - and the SBT then just recognizes the stream as LPCM and plays it. Sounds better because the SBT is not dong anywhere near as much work, even though the network load is a little higher.

 

If nobody tells you the setting before I get home, I will look it up and post it back. Caveat, I am a few releases back in Vortexbox, and the selection may have changed location.

 

-Paul

 

I understand now. Is there an argument about which device is better at decoding? Also, are you referring to the better sound quality if the Logitech SBT is being used as a DAC or just a streamer? I agree, if it's not doing as much work then it could easily sound better and I'll definitely try this. I'm wondering if it will make a difference to me as I only use the Logitech SBT as a streamer - after it's received the data, it then passes it to my external DAC....

[prot]

So would you also say that uncompressed WAV sounds the same as FLAC?

 

nope

[Paul R]

I understand now. Is there an argument about which device is better at decoding? Also, are you referring to the better sound quality if the Logitech SBT is being used as a DAC or just a streamer? I agree, if it's not doing as much work then it could easily sound better and I'll definitely try this. I'm wondering if it will make a difference to me as I only use the Logitech SBT as a streamer - after it's received the data, it then passes it to my external DAC....

 

I feel like an idiot, but I forgot to do this last night. Got involved with Family things and it absolutely slipped my mind. (*sigh*) I will look it up tonight, if some kind soul here does not take pity and finds it for me.

 

I notice the LPCM making more of a difference if the SBT is used as the streamer rather than as a DAC myself, but that may be because I always use the SBT as a streamer...

 

-Paul

[johann]

I notice the LPCM making more of a difference if the SBT is used as the streamer rather than as a DAC myself, but that may be because I always use the SBT as a streamer...

 

-Paul

 

Do you have replay gain enabled in LMS?

[Paul R]

Do you have replay gain enabled in LMS?

 

Nope.