Uptone Audio Regen

[zilch0md]

Hey guys!

 

I'm one of the folks waiting for an amber USB Regen, and having read most of this thread and the impressions thread, I'm very excited at the prospect of what it can do!

 

I have a question (for anyone here) that I'll try to keep as short as possible:

 

Which is likely to be better in terms of sound quality (and why)?:

 

 

USB source > 1-meter USB cable > USB Regen > cable-less adapter > USB-to-SPDIF Converter > cable-less BNC connector > BNC Coax input of DAC

 

OR

 

USB source > cable-less adapter > USB Regen > cable-less adpater > USB-to-SPDIF Converter > 1-meter 75-Ohm cable > BNC Coax input of DAC

 

 

I cannot escape using either a 1-meter USB cable (with the USB Regen residing downstream) or a 1-meter 75-Ohm "digital" cable (with the USB Regen residing upstream). Which is best, theoretically? (I will test both configurations.)

 

Thank you!

 

Mike

[zilch0md]

Thank you, pt_svn!

 

I'm glad to hear your conviction that either of my schematics would be OK, because, for reasons of aesthetics, I'd rather use the USB cable solution than the 75-Ohm cable solution.

 

Using the 1-meter USB cable would allow me to do a better job of hiding the S/PDIF converter and the USB Regen behind the DAC (with solid connectors).

 

Looking at your setup, described above, do you suspect that you would gain any improvement in sound quality by using a longer USB cable and (somehow) going to a solid (cable-less) connection between your Audiphileo and your DAC?

 

If not, things would be a lot easier for me to construct, were I to do what you are doing - using both a USB cable and a 75-Ohm Coax cable.

 

I do understand the need to keep the USB Regen close to the S/PDIF converter, though.

 

Thanks again,

 

Mike

[zilch0md]

Thank you John,

 

I never would have guessed that there's such a problem getting 75-Ohm BNC connectors.

 

Thanks very much for the link and your advice to eliminate the 75-Ohm coax cable, if possible.

 

Mike

[zilch0md]

Pomona makes a true 75 ohm adapter, it is model 6740 and are quite inexpensive, so it is probably a good idea to go for that specific model.

 

John S.

 

I've found one: http://www.amazon.com/Pomona-Electronics-ElectronicsPart-Number-6740/dp/B00KSAGZ3I

 

Thanks again!

 

Mike

[zilch0md]

As I anxiously await the arrival of the Amber can someone help me with some measurements. With the hard adapter inserted how long is it and what is the measurement from the bottom of the input to the bottom of the Regan? I have the room on the Oppo Modwright 105d for a good installation so kinda geeked.

Thanks,

Russ

 

So is it about 2 1/4x 1 3/4. ?

 

Great question Russ. I'd like this information, too.

[zilch0md]

I found the mother load.

 

DikiKey.com currently lists 678 different connectors by various manufacturers that satisfy a filter for BNC + 75-Ohm.

 

Connectors by Pomona Electronics are among those listed:

 

Coaxial Connectors (RF) | Connectors, Interconnects | DigiKey

[zilch0md]

My Metrum Acoustics Octave MKII uses a "USB 2 module" that receives it's power via the USB Type B jack, along with data.

 

It just occurred to me that when I receive the USB Regen, it wouldn't be fair to compare a LPS-powered USB Regen to the potentially "dirty" power coming from my laptop when the Regen is removed for comparison.

 

In other words, I should compare these two chains:

 

Laptop USB port (data only via a USB Y-cable) > USB-powered DAC (receiving its power from a 5V LPS via the other half of the Y-cable)

 

vs.

 

Laptop USB port (data and power via a single USB cable) > USB Regen (receiving its power from a 9V LPS) > USB-powered DAC

 

That way, the first chain won't be compromised by the potentially noisy power of the laptop.

 

Replacing the laptop's power with a LPS on the Y-cable would make for a more accurate evaluation of the USB Regen's contributions.

 

I have the less expensive, $80 5V and 9V TeraDak Teralink LPS, so I could use its 5V output and a Y-cable for testing without the Regen, then switch to using the 9V output for testing with the Regen.

 

Would there be likely be any audible benefit to using a data-only cable (one-half of a Y-cable) when connecting to the Regen's USB input?

 

Thanks,

 

Mike

[zilch0md]

Mine was just delivered by Fedex

 

Congrats!

[zilch0md]

Hi John,

 

PLEASE do NOT use Y cables that way, you can generate huge ground loops that can fry things!!! It may work but it may not.

 

John S.

 

I genuinely appreciate your warning, thanks!

 

I want to understand the specifics of your concern, however, so that I don't make this mistake on my own when you're not looking over my shoulder, so to speak. :-)

 

I'm thinking that you must be referring to this chain...

 

Laptop USB port (data only via a USB Y-cable) > USB-powered DAC (receiving its power from a 5V LPS via the other half of the Y-cable)

 

... where the USB Regen would not be in use, but where I would be using a Y-cable to pull only data from the laptop and 5V power from the LPS.

 

Can you please define the path(s) of the potential ground loop(s) you are envisioning?

 

I'm guessing that if I unplug the laptop from AC power, I could still get a ground loop between my AC-powered LPS and my AC-powered DAC (in the chain defined above), but what would prevent a similar ground loop from occurring when the USB Regen gets its power from an LPS that's plugged into the same outlet as my DAC?

 

I'm thinking the only way to avoid the threat of ground loops entirely is to run the laptop on battery power and use batteries to power the DAC (and the USB Regen).

 

In short, I don't understand how use of the Y-cable presents a unique threat of ground loops. But I'm eager to understand. :-)

 

Thank you,

 

Mike

[zilch0md]

Alex, and if my DAC uses USB power, I will need less than 9V?

 

My understanding is that you just don't want to exceed 9V if your DAC uses USB power.

 

12V would be bad because too much heat would be created by the 5V regulator inside the USB Regen.

 

9V or less is fine.

 

Mike

[zilch0md]

Hi Frederick,

 

OK guys, basic question here, and apologies if it has already been answered. I have an SoTM TX USB card in my CAPS server, feeding my W4S DAC2 DSDse (which needs USB power)

 

One of the USB ports on the SoTM card allows me to turn power on or off, so should I turn it off since otherwise the Regen will be being fed by two power sources? Or am I missing something?

 

Colin

 

Regen is fed by its own PS, not the USB bus

 

Yes, aware that it is fed by its own PS. Let me phrase this another way. Will it do any harm to have another 5v source routed to the Regen in addition to its own PS?

 

I would love to get a definitive answer to this question, too, but I suppose I can just experiment and listen carefully.

 

Would there be likely be any audible benefit to using a data-only cable (one-half of a Y-cable) when connecting to the Regen's USB input?

 

Mike

[zilch0md]

Mike, we both have the Metrum R2R DAC + zero feedback head amp > HD800, so great minds think alike

 

Should be very interesting to compare notes on how much or little of an impact the Amber REGEN will have on the Octave's sound, since Cees Ruijtenberg had obviously done his homework when designing the USB bus powered section of the Mk II - as he had emailed me, "We did investigation on the noise coming from the computer by using the internal filter. The output is quite clean and comparable with noise coming from mains power. From this point there is another regulator to make it completely clean."

 

Edward,

 

Between our forthcoming USB Regens, our TeraDak LSRs and our Metrum DAC/amp stacks, one of us should probably go out and buy the other's headphones.

 

Anyway I one-upped you lol by splurging on the higher-amperage R-core Teradak 30W model - basically a custom version of this one, with a 5.5 x 2.1mm adapter plug:

DC-30W GoldenWave Pearl power source DC9V/2.5A

 

Had arbitrarily asked Michael from Teradak for 8v instead of its standard 9V DC output...actually cos:

1) Closer to the stock SMPS's 7.5V

2) Should generate less heat than 9V feeding the REGEN...even though I think JS had posted that running the REGEN warmer might have a beneficial effect on the sound?

3) Think there was an earlier post where from experimenting with various voltages from an variable output LPSU,

7.8V

was deemed to yield the best sonics overall?

US $150 for this custom order, including shipping from Taiwan to America. Should get it this week!

 

When Alex recommended the less expensive, $130 R-Core TeraDak, as offering the most bang-for-the-buck, I almost upgraded from my $80 TeraDak U9VA LPS that I've had for several months, but you've really gone for it with that 30W TeraDak and still kept the price under that of the Regen, barely.

 

I suppose the output of that 30W model is fixed, but the 9V output jack of my cheap TeraDak is adjustable from 0.25v to 9.0V (1 amp) by turning a brass screw on the PCB, so I'll try experimenting with 6V vs. 9V. My expectation is that I won't hear a difference, in which case I'll end up at 9V on Alex's recommendation (or maybe 8.5V, since the Octave MkII does pull power and I like your idea of keeping the regulator's heat somewhere below the maximum permissible).

 

The brass voltage adjustment screw can be seen center-right:

 

 

Have started looking into data-only USB cables - eBay has some cheap listings from China but many of these don't have the ground lead, whilst the audiophile-oriented ones tend to carry a correspondingly stratospheric price tag.

 

After spotting more than a few glowing endorsements of the YourFinalSystem cable offerings on a number of forums, I contacted Kevin from YFS who was very approachable, enthusiastic & helpful in answering my flood of questions. Quoted a very competitive deal for their standard Ref Data-only USB copper shielded cable which I've ordered to try out, seems the company's standard policy is to burn-in all their hand-built cables for 100 hours:

YFS Cables/Interconnects

 

 

Thanks for this link!

 

Mike,

 

I'm not definitive on this, but my suggestion (from following this and other Regen threads from the begining) would be to disable the +5v from the computer, thus eliminating any possible noise/RFI pickup on the way to the Regen. If it is easy to config it off, or tape over the pin, why not ?

 

Thanks Daudio!

 

I hear you - that was my thinking from the beginning, by doing something like this at the PC end of the USB cable that goes to the USB Regen - blocking pin 1 with packing tape:

 

 

Reading John Swenson's comments further down, I'm just going to try this with my standard, four-conductor USB cable (Blue Dragon by Moon Audio) and skip the idea of using half of a USB Y-Cable - because I now want to make sure I have all three wires other than the 5V+ conductor going to the USB Regen.

 

... might be wrong but, afaik, when Cees (by impelling market request ) added an USB option to his great DACs he licensed the M2Tech board

 

Ha, you're right of course - the USB board itself wasn't designed by Cees, the one in my Mk II is the one from Amanero!

 

You might both enjoy reading this article by John Darko on the reason Cees Ruijtenberg switched from M2Tech to Amanero for the USB 2 module:

 

Metrum Acoustics drop M2Tech OEM, announce new USB module | DAR

 

Love the Octave btw for its natural & glorious reproduction of vocals, a very intimate sound with great timing and a natural analogue-like ease. Will be bested by other (often more costly) DACs in the soundstage width and bass dynamics, but matches my listening preferences really brilliantly!

 

Roger that!

 

It should also be apparent to everyone that the REGEN obviates the function or need for other 5VBUS power-cleaning devices before it since it ignores the voltage they sent on the USB cable. Feeding the REGEN better power (6-9V etc.) to run on via its 5.5mm x 2.1mm DC jack is a good thing, though the Mean Well SMPS I chose to include was the best sounding I could find for under $20 wholesale, and the benefits of the REGEN shine through it just fine (I don't have a spare JS-2 and so I use my personal REGEN with the SMPS all the time).

But as alluded to elsewhere, we are working on an affordable PS add-on just for REGEN.

 

Cheers,

AJC

 

Thanks for the clarifications, Alex! I will certainly give the 7.5V SMPS a good listen before arbitrarily "upgrading" to my $80 LPS.

 

 

(snip)

 

The upshot is that if you can turn off or not have connected the 5V wire that will cut down on a possible source of differential noise, so it should be a good thing to do.

 

Ground is different, according to the USB spec you HAVE to have a ground wire for the protocol to work. In particular the initial handshake requires ground to function. But there are other situations that will theoretically not work without a ground connection. So a data only cable which has NO ground connection WHATSOEVER is probably not a good idea, your REGEN or DAC will probably not work correctly.

 

(snip)

 

As far as Y cables are concerned, they should work well as long as you make sure you get a ground connection. If the data side is a shielded twisted pair and has the shield connected at both ends, then just using the data side will be all you need. If the data side does NOT have a ground connection on both ends then you will need to use both sides.

 

Please don't ask me for how different ones sound and how they are built, I don't know.

 

John S.

 

Thank you very much for this excellent reply, John!

[zilch0md]

:lol: it reminded me why I never even thought about buying an M2Tech DAC nor anything that requires a driver for Mac OS

 

LOL

 

Here's a great article from the YFS Cables site - following up on John's recent advice:

 

How Do Data-Only USB Cables Work?

[zilch0md]

Let me try to save Alex and John some typing. :-)

 

To power the USB Regen, you will need a supply that delivers a minimum current of 1 Amp, in the range of 6VDC to 12VDC, as follows:

 

6V is the lowest you can go, keeps heat inside the Regen to a minimum and it works for DACs that require 5V USB power or DACs that don't, but the Regen might not sound as good as when powered with higher voltages.

 

7.5V is what the Regen's included SMPS supplies, runs the Regen a little warmer than at lower voltages, works for DACs that require 5V USB power or DACs that don't, and the Regen might sound better than at lower voltages, but not as good as at higher voltages.

 

9V is as high as you can go if you are using a DAC that requires 5V USB power, works fine with DACs that don't, and the Regen might sound better than at lower voltages, but not as good as at higher voltages.

 

12V cannot be used with DACs that require 5V USB power, but works fine with DACs that don't, and the Regen might sound better than when it is powered at lower voltages.

 

Note: My references to how the Regen might sound better when it runs hotter, relate to previous posts in this thread where that was discussed. YMMV and MMMV, too! :-)

 

Mike

[zilch0md]

So this is the basis of our recommendations:

 

DAC does not use any BUS power 6-12V

DAC uses some bus power, and some of its own power 6-9V

DAC is fully bus powered 6-8V

 

The supplied 7.5V supply fits in all three categories and is safe to use in all situations.

 

That is about it, there is not much else to say on the subject, I hope that covers all the questions.

 

John S.

 

^ What he said! :-)

[zilch0md]

Pretty wild huh? The sensation of more bass or more bass detail comes courtesy of the resistors added to the ground and shield to make the "amber" version. But don't let that aspect keep you from hearing the "stillness", "effortlessness" and beautifully formed harmonic envelopes of the instruments and vocalists that comes from the REGEN main functioning of improved signal integrity and impedance match.

 

Those with the first 95 "green" units will be in a better position to sort out what the ground resistors did. The whole bass clarity thing is going to knock those people on their butts!

 

(Snip)

 

Thanks everyone,

 

--Alex

 

Drool...

[zilch0md]

John S. said "But what about the cable? I have mentioned before that the upstream PHY in the REGEN is still susceptible to the SI of the incoming signal so if you can improve the SI of what you are feeding it you will most likely improve the sound from the DAC (maybe not by much though). "

 

Could someone tell me what "SI" is?

 

TIA

 

Signal Integrity perhaps ? ( a guess)

 

It's a measure of Acoustic Impedance:

 

Acoustic impedance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

If you can understand this article, please send me a PM and I'll pay you 5 bucks for a brain transplant.

[zilch0md]

Hi Paul!

 

Hi Mike.

 

I have a question about your recap of John's responses to questions regarding using an LPS for powering the Regen. My understanding from John's previous replies was that if using 12 volts you just needed to be sure that your DAC did not draw more than 200mv from the VBUS. Your answer seems to say that one should not use 12v at all with a DAC that draws anything from VBUS.

 

This is an important distinction for me as you can see from my question and the answer from EJ Sarmento who made my Wyred4Sound DAC.

 

John. Sorry to belabor this but if Mike's response is correct then I need to use the stock supply for now. If my original understanding is correct then perhaps his post might need amending.

 

"I have a question. I am considering buying a USB re-clocker from John Swenson. It nominally runs on 7v but can take 12v if the DAC is not drawing more than 200ma from VBUS. Does my DAC2 DSD draw current from USB VBUS? I would like to use the 12v output from an LPS that powers my audio server." (Paul)

 

"The DAC does draw from the VBUS and shouldn’t be more than 200mA. You should be ok..." (EJ Sarmento)

 

Thanks to all. I am eagerly awaiting my Regen!

 

Best,

 

Paul

 

Hopefully, you've read past my post that you've quoted and came across John's reply, which should, of course, be accepted as a far better answer than mine:

 

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f10-music-servers/uptone-audio-regen-22803/index57.html#post435437

 

Any and all conflicting statements should be reconciled by honoring John's take on this subject.

 

Thanks!

 

Mike

[zilch0md]

^ What he said! :-)

 

I think I'll stop trying to answer questions for awhile. :-)

[zilch0md]

 

(snip)

 

A general question...curious... Is anyone here using the Regen with a USB powered DAC?

 

Two of us have the Metrum Octave MkII, using the USB-Powered "USB 2 Module" - a Metrum-tweaked deployment of Amanero's technology.

 

 

Mike

[zilch0md]

 

(snip)

 

Fact is Empirical came out with what they call a Short Block which blocks the 5V coming from the USB cable.

 

Short Block USB Filter : Empirical Audio

 

Wow! They want $199 for that!

 

I think I'll just put some packing tape over Pin #1 to enjoy the same benefits touted in the reviews at the bottom of that page.

 

:-)

 

Mike

[zilch0md]

 

(snip)

 

In july i think you can play ping pong again and one day, if i come to visit Yosemite again (Who knows) i'll take my racket !

regards

pascal

 

Oh, that's right! Alex lives only 40 miles from all of this: https://www.google.com/#q=yosemite+national+park+images

 

I suspect the locals prefer to visit in the off season. It can be crazy there in the summer.

[zilch0md]

Does jitter affect bass frequencies more than treble?

[zilch0md]

 

(snip)

 

@ Pepsican ... "It could be they are all of equally crap quality therefore :-)"

 

LOL ... That crossed my mind ... I had a crazy thought of DIY some "Audiophile USB Adapters" using Mundorf Silver/Gold 24 AWG wire and the best gold USB ends that I could find ... then I thought there must be more to life

 

 

LOL

 

As a friend of mine once said, "I can't buy time, I can only conserve it." So, if time is precious, buying a handful of adapters and short cables, then "listening" to each of them, would seem to be the most conservative approach.

 

But money is precious, too. Which begs this question...

 

There seems to be a consensus that keeping the connection short is audibly a good thing, but has anyone found one adapter to sound better than another?

[zilch0md]

Two reasons, the lens doesn't focus up close, it designed for seeing walls and stuff, it doesn't focus well when it is an inch away.

 

(snip)

 

It would be nice to get an add on lens that focuses at a couple inches, but getting far IR lenses is not easy.

 

(snip)

 

John S.

 

Hi John,

 

So-called Close-Up Lens Filters that are designed to attach to a camera lens via the front filter threads work just as well with IR film and IR-mode digital sensors as do normal camera lenses. Thermal imaging cameras might be such a different beast that it won't work with them, but at least for IR photography, the IR frequencies aren't notched out by untinted glass filters and lenses the way UV frequencies are at the other end of the visible spectrum.

 

Your thermal imaging camera most likely has some kind of an IR pass filter on it that limits the bandwidth to IR frequencies, but adding a close-up lens shouldn't present a problem as its bandwidth is much greater and likely straddles the IR pass filter.

 

Does the lens of your thermal imaging camera have filter threads in the bezel? If so, step-up and step-down rings are available for matching the thread diameter of your lens to the filter diameter (which is 55mm for the set at the link above). If not, you'll have to rig up some way to attach it.