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Poll: should JRiver remove the JPlay is a hoax warnings from their JRMC product?


Antoine

Should JRiver remove the JPlay is a hoax warnings from their JRMC product?  

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Looking further into this Jariver is priced at less than $50 US for a license - this for a product that has an excellent comprehensive data base manager as well as a very good playback engine.

 

Japlay, OTOH, is just a player and a device driver and is priced at a whopping 100 euro.

 

This seems to me to be a rip-off. Perhaps the authors of JPlay can justify this pricing?

 

Quantitatively seen (looking at the amount of functionality) you could be right, but it is the the quality of music playback that counts for most audiophiles (often even more important). And these audiophiles, myself included, weigh if it's worth it or not. JPlay offers a fully functional trial so you can try before you buy. Here freedom of choice, actually is a good thing and applied in the right way.

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I can understand why J River would believe that a warning is appropriate. However, a more informative and less aggressive warning - e.g. a disclaimer that JPlay may cause compatibility problems and/or, that J River's position is that it offers no sonic benefits - would be more effective.

 

That would be far too sensible, instead of alienating (pissing off?) quite a few of their own paid customers.

 

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I run JRMC18 with JPlay and Audiophile Optimizer on Windows 2012 Server. I appreciate that I am running two pieces of software that JRiver do not support on an operating system that they do not support. That's my choice and I take responsibility for that choice. I get a very occasional instability but this is not a problem.

 

I trust my ears and believe that the quality of JRiver Media Center when used with JPlay, Audiophile Optimizer and Windows 2012 Server is superior to a standard installation on Windows 7 or 8. I have tried both combinations and made a subjective decision.

 

Some posts in this thread have been judged to be 'strong'. JRiver describes JPlay as a hoax. Wikipedia defines a hoax as "... a deliberately fabricated falsehood made to masquerade as truth." Now that is strong.

 

It would be interesting to see who prevailed is a formal legal process was initiated, either by JRiver or JPlay!

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+1

 

And, triggered by Jazzdoc's post above, I said I found the post of Alcarp (I quoted it near the beginning of this topic) 'strong'. But I now see it's a wrong translation of the Dutch word I had in mind (I'm not a native English speaker). I didn't mean 'strong' but solid/powerful/right to the point. :)

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If someone wrote parasitic hijacking software to run along with something I wrote (...).

 

By writing 'parasitic hijacking software' you clearly show that you have ZERO idea what you are talking about and how things work. Jplay works as a regular ASIO plug in with Jriver, just like other programs. Jriver have enabled that funcionality in their software.

 

What is more, Jriver also offers ASIO plug in of their mediaplayer to work with other software. As an example, you can use Jriver ASIO plug in with Foobar. Their ASIO plug in was launched two months after Jplay launched theirs - they basicly have copied Jplay idea ! Not that Jplay claims any copyright or sth, but they are basicly doing the same to what Jplay is doing !

 

And now a 1 million dolar question - does for example Foobar display a warning popup when it detects the Jriver ASIO plug in ? No, it doesn't ! Using the logic of Jriver, it probably should, but people at Foobar do not have the egos the size of Large Magellanic Cloud and do not waste their time on sth that should be left to the consumer.

 

For all those whishing for the popup to disappear, I have a bad news for you - it won't. It is a personal vendetta of Jriver owner. It all started after the Jriver owner read several reviews, where Jplay was directly compared with Jriver, and was found to offer superior sonics.

 

His claim was it was a hoax. He based his claim on the bits are bits therory. I always wonder, when he starts going after Win 2012, Fidelizer or Audiophile Optimizer, as those programs, according to numerous reports, also offer a sonic improvement over Jriver (or Win 8 in case of Win 2012), even though all output bit perfect signal. So they are also hoax in Jriver speak.

 

IMO we should stop wasting our time discussing what cannot be explained in any rational way (it is difficoult to rationalize on personal vendettas and egos). If you want to use Jplay - just istall the available patch that kills the popup.

 

PS. I wish Jplay was a bigger company and could afford to sue Jriver. Jriver would loose under EU law and would be harshly punished. EU has very strict community competition law.

Adam

 

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Folks, I will make this one comment and then go on about doing other things.

 

Not one person who has posted here really knows the facts. Until you get them, then to be perfectly blunt, it makes me wonder if the JPlay company is back up to their old tricks agan. Trying to boost Christmas sales perhaps?

 

From personal interactions, I suggest that Matt's early summation of "jPlay is a scam" is 100% true. The only argument against that at all is that Ted B. uses it, along with a few other respected members on CA and some other folks whose opinions I respect, but whose judgement I question.

 

If you want to spend your money on jPlay, go ahead. But do not expect J. River to support you if you have problems. And you will, inevitably, have problems.

 

I for one, am glad J. River spends their time and effort adding cool new capabilities to JRMC, including running it on MacOS and Linux.

 

Further, despite their efforts to sanitize the web, it is not too difficult to go back and find what jPlay first started publishing as and what they said back then. You want facts? Go practice your Google-Fu.

 

If you jPlay fanatics (shills?) want to attack me yet again, be my guest. I am not subscribed to this thread and am not listening.

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

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Good posting Elberoth!

 

And though I agree with you that only discussing/debating this malpractice may not have an effect on itself I am also exploring legal actions I/we can take. You are absolutely right about the strict competition laws in the EU and I also believe this practice to be illegal in the US. Both the EU and US have introduced criminal penalties for competition law infringements.

 

The "JPlay is a hoax" statement alone is a clear case of defamation which is a criminal offense. Stating that the author of Foobar agrees and that some non-professional home users found no difference in the bitstream output in no way justifies such a strong claim. Teaming up with Foobar even makes it look like cartel practices.

 

Foobar classifies JPlay as ""Audiophile" scam", which can be found insulting (just as Matt Ashland's calling JPlay users "gullible") and defamatory. Matt Ashland has also publicly said that "JPlay makes a scam of a product", lets see how he will defend this in a court of law.

 

JPLAY is not recommended

foobar2000 troubleshooter

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Folks, I will make this one comment and then go on about doing other things.

If you want to spend your money on jPlay, go ahead. But do not expect J. River to support you if you have problems. And you will, inevitably, have problems.

 

Trying to play on peoples fears now? I had zero problems in the interoperability JPlay-JRiver and can't see why these problems would "inevitably" rise as long as JRiver adheres to the ASIO standards. Not doing so would cause issues with countless other devices unless they specifically do that for JPlay only. And that would be even more wrong than this pop up practice they show. I really hope for all remaining JPlay-JRiver users that that's too low for even JRiver's moral standards.

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Looking further into this Jariver is priced at less than $50 US for a license - this for a product that has an excellent comprehensive data base manager as well as a very good playback engine.

 

Japlay, OTOH, is just a player and a device driver and is priced at a whopping 100 euro.

 

This seems to me to be a rip-off. Perhaps the authors of JPlay can justify this pricing?

 

That's fifty for the initial license of JRiver, and approx twenty-five or so for each upgrade( if it's been over a year since your last upgrade or initial license ).Worth it ? Absolutely, IMHO. I keep my JRiver current as I like the program. But I'm into it ( gladly ) for over a hundred now.

 

I also keep JPlay at the latest version. I think I've been through at least 7-8 versions. And it hasn't cost me another cent. Your intial purchase entitles you to free upgrades for life.

 

There will come a time when I've spent more on JRiver tham JPlay. Could care less. I need both.

 

AFAIAC, both programs represent tremendous value. What you get from JRiver for fifty bucks ( more if you keep upgrading ), I find w/o peer in computer program costs. IMHO, just the file storage and management capabilities more than justify its cost. The playback engine ( which is very good ) is gravy.

 

JPlay, OTOH, is totally justifed in my view because of the free upgrades and the substantial increase in the sound quality over JRiver. Now this is to my ears on my system, and of course, YMMV. If you hear it different, fine. It's your money. But don't tell me what I should be hearing based upon your thoughts or listening experiences.

 

In the immortal words of George Kennedy " Can't we all just get along ? "

 

Cheers and Happy Holidays, Crazy Bill

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Antoine - Please watch your tone of voice and keep your comments professional. You may hurt your own point by being a bit too aggressive and suggesting JRiver has moral issues and that they are criminals.

 

Fair enough, it is ultimately up to a judge to decide if any laws have been broken.

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By writing 'parasitic hijacking software' you clearly show that you have ZERO idea what you are talking about and how things work. Jplay works as a regular ASIO plug in with Jriver, just like other programs. Jriver have enabled that funcionality in their software.

 

What is more, Jriver also offers ASIO plug in of their mediaplayer to work with other software. As an example, you can use Jriver ASIO plug in with Foobar. Their ASIO plug in was launched two months after Jplay launched theirs - they basicly have copied Jplay idea ! Not that Jplay claims any copyright or sth, but they are basicly doing the same to what Jplay is doing !

 

And now a 1 million dolar question - does for example Foobar display a warning popup when it detects the Jriver ASIO plug in ? No, it doesn't ! Using the logic of Jriver, it probably should, but people at Foobar do not have the egos the size of Large Magellanic Cloud and do not waste their time on sth that should be left to the consumer.

 

For all those whishing for the popup to disappear, I have a bad news for you - it won't. It is a personal vendetta of Jriver owner. It all started after the Jriver owner read several reviews, where Jplay was directly compared with Jriver, and was found to offer superior sonics.

 

His claim was it was a hoax. He based his claim on the bits are bits therory. I always wonder, when he starts going after Win 2012, Fidelizer or Audiophile Optimizer, as those programs, according to numerous reports, also offer a sonic improvement over Jriver (or Win 8 in case of Win 2012), even though all output bit perfect signal. So they are also hoax in Jriver speak.

 

IMO we should stop wasting our time discussing what cannot be explained in any rational way (it is difficoult to rationalize on personal vendettas and egos). If you want to use Jplay - just istall the available patch that kills the popup.

 

PS. I wish Jplay was a bigger company and could afford to sue Jriver. Jriver would loose under EU law and would be harshly punished. EU has very strict community competition law.

 

Good post but you left out one fact. Many people who use Jplay also use JRiver.

 

JRiver is very good as a full featured front end. It is an exelent program and a well worth the price IMO.

 

I am so surprised how foolish humans can actually be sometimes. JRiver (Jim) should be embarrassed.

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I can understand why J River would believe that a warning is appropriate. However, a more informative and less aggressive warning - e.g. a disclaimer that JPlay may cause compatibility problems and/or, that J River's position is that it offers no sonic benefits - would be more effective.

I can completely agree with you Allan.

 

I too find the term "Hoax" to be distasteful / inappropriate; though I also support J.River's right to put the warning and refuse support where JPlay or other third party software was in use. It's not unknown for software to display warnings at start up of a similar nature which require a click through.

 

Even given the fact the JPlay was written by Josef, I do think he is very unwise to have named the software JPlay when a firmly established product called J.River already existed in the market - I suspect this is what annoys J.River more than anything. Its the the same as a competitor would be unwise to launch an i-something product given Apple's naming history.

 

Eloise

Eloise

---

...in my opinion / experience...

While I agree "Everything may matter" working out what actually affects the sound is a trickier thing.

And I agree "Trust your ears" but equally don't allow them to fool you - trust them with a bit of skepticism.

keep your mind open... But mind your brain doesn't fall out.

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I think it's silly that JRiver puts the "hoax" warning on their software. To my ears, JPlay sounds very slightly better than JRMC but I'd rather just buy more music than obsess over the last iota of perceived performance. But if others hear a significant difference, far be it from me to say they're wrong. Besides, doesn't JRiver sell more JRMC each time some one wants to piggyback JPlay off of JRMC?

 

I've had a lot of problems getting JRMC to play DVDs. I used their forum to get help. They did respond quickly. But they got crazy angry when they found out that I had a trial copy of JPlay. I removed it, as they requested, but made the mistake of asking what the big deal was. They locked me out of their forum! Other than DVD playback, I like JRMC but I won't be giving them any more of my money.

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Antoine - Please watch your tone of voice and keep your comments professional. You may hurt your own point by being a bit too aggressive and suggesting JRiver has moral issues and that they are criminals.

 

Hi Chris,

 

Have you ever had a conversation with Jim on the subject? You work very hard to show that bits are not just bits, and they don't all sound the same. Does he think you are crazy also? :)

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Go practice your Google-Fu.

 

Google-Fu: I'll be using that phrase:)

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Let me state at the outset that I have no personal experience with JPlay and can offer no opinion as to whether it provides sonic benefits when used with J River. I use JRMC and am very satisfied with it. I have expressed my opinion regarding J River's popup warning in an earlier post to this thread. However...

 

Not one person who has posted here really knows the facts.
A rather pretentious statement. How do you know?

 

From personal interactions, I suggest that Matt's early summation of "jPlay is a scam" is 100% true.
Fine, you are describing your personal experience.

 

The only argument against that at all is that Ted B. uses it, along with a few other respected members on CA and some other folks whose opinions I respect, but whose judgement I question.
The “only argument against that”, to use your expression, are reports of experiences that differ from your own. Despite the fact that those reports come from some of the most respected members of the Forum, they are to be ignored because you question their judgment. Would you care to offer a reason for your sanctimonious superiority.

 

And you will, inevitably, have problems.
Had you resisted your propensity towards hyperbole and used the word “likely” or “probably”, your credibility would be far less suspect.

 

If you jPlay fanatics (shills?) want to attack me yet again, be my guest. I am not subscribed to this thread and am not listening.
Your don't play the part of the "abused victim" very well, Paul. Criticism of you is always an "attack", but somehow your criticisms of others have a different character. You post an opinion based on your experience and dismiss those of respected Forum members for no other reason than that you question their judgment, And finally, rather than have the courage to listen to other views and defend your position, you declare yourself deaf. What a remarkable display of intellectual honesty!

"Relax, it's only hi-fi. There's never been a hi-fi emergency." - Roy Hall

"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." - William Bruce Cameron

 

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Let me state at the outset that I have no personal experience with JPlay and can offer no opinion as to whether it provides sonic benefits when used with J River. I use JRMC and am very satisfied with it. I have expressed my opinion regarding J River's popup warning in an earlier post to this thread. However...

 

A rather pretentious statement. How do you know?

 

Fine, you are describing your personal experience.

 

The “only argument against that”, to use your expression, are reports of experiences that differ from your own. Despite the fact that those reports come from some of the most respected members of the Forum, they are to be ignored because you question their judgment. Would you care to offer a reason for your sanctimonious superiority.

 

Had you resisted your propensity towards hyperbole and used the word “likely” or “probably”, your credibility would be far less suspect.

 

Your don't play the part of the "abused victim" very well, Paul. Criticism of you is always an "attack", but somehow your criticisms of others have a different character. You post an opinion based on your experience and dismiss those of respected Forum members for no other reason than that you question their judgment, And finally, rather than have the courage to listen to other views and defend your position, you declare yourself deaf. What a remarkable display of intellectual honesty!

 

Thanks for your response to dear paul...

 

There is not one shred of reality in anything he said.

 

In the world of gas bags, he makes the Hindenburg seem the size of a party balloon!

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So let me get this straight: folks are great telling JRiver (Jim and Matt) what to say and how to say it but the same folks don't want others to tell them what to say or how to say it? So JRiver can't call JPlay a "hoax" and Paul can't express his opinions but folks find it reasonable if they call someone a "gas bag" (of a relatively large size)? Wow.

 

This isn't about if JPlay is or is not a hoax. This is about is JRiver, as a company, free to post a popup within their program when a competitor's program they don't support is added to their program?

 

And JRiver is a company with a long and open door policy for third party vendors: Partial List of Third Party Software and a Link to Developer Info so there must be a reason they think this is an issue.

 

Or do we really like to tell people what to say and think so much that this is worth name calling? Since the OP is from EU, perhaps he could request the EC pass a law making it illegal for JRiver to post a popup calling JPlay a hoax.

 

Then the question would be could there be a popup of any kind, just not say hoax? Or would all popups be prohibited in JRiver. Good grief, people, even contemplating this is madness...

Positive emotions enhance our musical experiences.

 

Synology DS213+ NAS -> Auralic Vega w/Linear Power Supply -> Auralic Vega DAC (Symposium Jr rollerball isolation) -> XLR -> Auralic Taurus Pre -> XLR -> Pass Labs XA-30.5 power amplifier (on 4" maple and 4 Stillpoints) -> Hawthorne Audio Reference K2 Speakers in MTM configuration (Symposium Jr HD rollerball isolation) and Hawthorne Audio Bass Augmentation Baffles (Symposium Jr rollerball isolation) -> Bi-amped w/ two Rythmic OB plate amps) -> Extensive Room Treatments (x2 SRL Acoustics Prime 37 diffusion plus key absorption and extensive bass trapping) and Pi Audio Uberbuss' for the front end and amplification

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So let me get this straight: folks are great telling JRiver (Jim and Matt) what to say and how to say it but the same folks don't want others to tell them what to say or how to say it? So JRiver can't call JPlay a "hoax" and Paul can't express his opinions but folks find it reasonable if they call someone a "gas bag" (of a relatively large size)? Wow...

This isn't about if JPlay is or is not a hoax. This is about is JRiver, as a company, free to post a popup within their program when a competitor's program they don't support is added to their program?

 

I am sadly disappointed in your post, John, because IMO it is not a fair summary of this thread. I don't believe that most reasonable people question the right of J River to warn against the use of JPlay with its software. However, there appears to be at least some agreement that describing JPlay as a "hoax" is unnecessarily provocative and provides J River users with no substantive information about why JPlay should not be used. For you to say that, "This isn't about if JPlay is or is not a hoax" is, unintentionally I trust, disingenuous. J River has described its position in those terms.

I did not say that Paul is not entitled to express his opinion. To the contrary I said, "Fine, you are describing your experience". My objection is to his dismissing opposing views of highly respected members while offering no reason for doing so other than that he questions their judgment. Many would characterize that as akin to sophistry. Now there are at least a couple

of possibilities for these differing views. I suppose ted_b and others may have convinced themselves that they are hearing something that doesn't exist because of expectation bias, although I doubt it. OTOH, it may very well be the case that their hearing and/or equipment is superior to Paul's and therefore they hear what he cannot. I don't see this is as a question of judgment.

 

Then the question would be could there be a popup of any kind, just not say hoax? Or would all popups be prohibited in JRiver. Good grief, people, even contemplating this is madness...

 

I'm sorry, John, but I don’t understand what you are trying to convey in the above passage. I must be missing something because it makes little sense to me.

"Relax, it's only hi-fi. There's never been a hi-fi emergency." - Roy Hall

"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." - William Bruce Cameron

 

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Sorry to disappoint, Allan.

 

Perhaps it would be interesting to find out if people care if the popup just said "unapproved program in use" and didn't call JPlay a "hoax"? I would hope it would be ANY popup or else people are just upset that JRiver has a forum to post their ideas (i.e that JPlay is a "hoax").

 

If it is that people think JRiver shouldn't be free to say what they want to say within their program that we license, then I would say that censorship has gone too far. That would be madness...

 

Why is it so hard to understand that JRiver is free to write the program they want to write and that censorship in this regard is not any different than someone telling you not to say what you wish. My goodness, Allan, do you really want to censor Jim and Matt's speech? Where does this stop?

 

P.S. this isn't a question of IF it is a "hoax" then it is OK and if it is NOT a "hoax" then it is not OK. Or if it is, then the OP mislead everyone with his question which then should have been do you think JPlay is a "hoax" or not? I certainly wouldn't have answered a survey asking if I thought it was or was not a hoax. I would, on the other hand, answer a question asking if they should be required to remove a popup window because people don't like what it says or think it is inconvenient. THAT I do have an opinion on...

Positive emotions enhance our musical experiences.

 

Synology DS213+ NAS -> Auralic Vega w/Linear Power Supply -> Auralic Vega DAC (Symposium Jr rollerball isolation) -> XLR -> Auralic Taurus Pre -> XLR -> Pass Labs XA-30.5 power amplifier (on 4" maple and 4 Stillpoints) -> Hawthorne Audio Reference K2 Speakers in MTM configuration (Symposium Jr HD rollerball isolation) and Hawthorne Audio Bass Augmentation Baffles (Symposium Jr rollerball isolation) -> Bi-amped w/ two Rythmic OB plate amps) -> Extensive Room Treatments (x2 SRL Acoustics Prime 37 diffusion plus key absorption and extensive bass trapping) and Pi Audio Uberbuss' for the front end and amplification

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If it is that people think JRiver shouldn't be free to say what they want to say within their program that we license, then I would say that censorship has gone too far. That would be madness.

 

I believe that most people have indicated that they disapprove of the use of the word “hoax” and not the use of a popup, per se. It would be censorship to suggest that J River not be allowed to use the term. It is not censorship to believe that J River simply should not use the term. Many consider branding a competitor’s product a “hoax” to be an inappropriate and unnecessarily provocative practice.

 

Why is it so hard to understand that JRiver is free to write the program they want to write and that censorship in this regard is not any different than someone telling you not to say what you wish. My goodness, Allan, do you really want to censor Jim and Matt's speech? Where does this stop?

See my previous reply. To use your example, It is censorship to prevent me from saying what I wish, or to believe that I not be allowed to say what I wish. It is not censorship to disagree with what I say or to believe that I should not say it.

 

I certainly wouldn't have answered a survey asking if I thought it was or was not a hoax. I would, on the other hand, answer a question asking if they should be required to remove a popup window because people don't like what it says or think it is inconvenient. THAT I do have an opinion on...

The OP asked neither of the above questions. The issue of whether JPlay is a hoax is only relevant to the extent that J River introduced it as an issue. The survey asked for opinions on whether J River should remove the “hoax” warning. It did not ask if J River should be required to remove it. The distinction may be subtle, but it is significant. Perhaps our views are not that far apart, after all.

"Relax, it's only hi-fi. There's never been a hi-fi emergency." - Roy Hall

"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." - William Bruce Cameron

 

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