Multiroom DLNA is dead. Get over it Wap!

[realhifi]

I should have said the SBTouch , Transporter, and the LMS software. Thase devices were pretty much dead simple and bulletproof, and sounded very very good indeed. The Duet - not so much.

 

Sonos is very good too of course, but as reliable as a SBTouch?

 

I'm assuming you have had all these and compared them head to head?

 

Actually it's all pretty moot since Logitech no longer makes any of those products.

[Paul R]

I'm assuming you have had all these and compared them head to head?

 

Actually it's all pretty moot since Logitech no longer makes any of those products.

 

Yep. Still have one of each and run a vortexbox to drive them. Transcode everything to LPCM before you transmit it and voila! Really good sound. The Transporter in particular was sweet. Uncortunately, Logitech gave up the boat.

 

By the way, I get called in to clean up Sonos messes rather reguarly. Once working they are solid, but people mess 'em up just like anything else. I have a Play5 here I love.

 

Networking and music together? Sweet spot for me!

[wappinghigh]

I'm still using AirPlay because it does lossless 16/44 for cheap and multi-room is perfectly in sync.

The output is Toslink so the cheap hardware doesn't matter, though the analog output is not terrible either.

One thing I really like that AirPlay does, which no other system does, is that anyone can play to a room directly from their phones/tablets without any special apps running.

 

AirPlay is a bit of a pain once you get out of Apple's ecosystem and want to start using it with players like JRiver, but every other system seems to be at that level of complexity by default.

 

 

I'm not aware of anything else which does multi-room better yet - systems like Sonos are still limited to 16/44, and don't support direct playback from your devices.

The old Squeezebox hardware was good, but I don't like the idea of buying into a "dead" system.

 

I wish that Apple would update the spec to support high res audio and open it up so that other apps can play directly to them rather than routing everything through AirFoil. DLNA and their alternatives have never worked well for me.

 

Yes. Great comment.

 

I 100% agre with that. Spotify Connect has this potential as well.. though they have yet to do multiroom sync properly: proof is in the pudding...

[wappinghigh]

I'll just reiterate: JRiver cannot do this properly.

 

"Guru Bob" said so on their forum..

[wappinghigh]

Ha!

 

Thanks for biting Chris... hahahahaa

 

Now please take the bait and force the industry to do something about the mess!

 

Wap

[wappinghigh]

Unless you are willing to forgo DSD and spend the cash needed for an all Linn system it does appear you are, as they say, SOL. Tough pill to swallow but you could start your own business and create one if its really sticking in your craw.

 

Just as an aside I have zero clients that ask me for what you are looking for, even ones with 10k-20k systems. Not ever one.

You know Bluesound/NAD have very nearly nailed it for us.. .. they are extremely close.. but no DSD. And guess what.. they aren't using DLNA/upnp to mount a network share.. they are using smb.. LOL!

[realhifi]

 

 

By the way, I get called in to clean up Sonos messes rather reguarly. Once working they are solid, but people mess 'em up just like anything else. I have a Play5 here I love.

 

Networking and music together? Sweet spot for me!

 

Never had a customer mess up a Sonos setup. Lots and lots of Squeezebox, Marantz, Denon, etc networking issues but not one Sonos yet. Guess I'm just lucky.

 

Out of curiousity what are the issues that you are finding with the Sonos systems you see people have "messed up"?

 

PS. How on earth do you find time to listen to everything you have? I've never met anyone with as much gear as you have.

[gnan]

Never had a customer mess up a Sonos setup. Lots and lots of Squeezebox, Marantz, Denon, etc networking issues but not one Sonos yet. Guess I'm just lucky.

 

Out of curiousity what are the issues that you are finding with the Sonos systems you see people have "messed up"?

 

PS. How on earth do you find time to listen to everything you have? I've never met anyone with as much gear as you have.

 

Just to chime in as a Sonos and squeeze owner (my wife owned Sonos before we were married).

 

There is no way I would recommend Squeeze to my non technically inclined friends (I set my dad up with a pair of P1s not a hifiberry picoreplayer. ) but My wife now prefers LMS (Can't live without smart mix) the Sonos boxes are in guest rooms.

 

IMHO Squeeze can be almost as reliable as Sonos, problem is Squeeze is a much more complex system so much more likely to break something. The trade offs are that it can do things Sonos will never be able to achieve on their current hardware.

 

We've had a number of issues with Sonos: S5 (play5) replaced twice due to a well known manufacturing defect as well as a cr200 with the dead touchscreen problem. The iPad app has had a number of issues where it continually drops zones and the solution from support has been to uninstall then reinstall whenever it happens. Read the Sonos forums and you will see how many have problems.

 

The mesh network works well. Remember that it still runs in the 2.4 spectrum so is susceptible to interference the same as regular wifi.

 

I've had issues with squeeze also: perl problem where LMS wouldn't run, taking the risk in running betas. I've been running a Vortexbox and LMS with no downtime I can remember in 4 years.

 

There is a new app called that has successfully bridged LMS to Sonos via UPNP (you can play to Sonos speakers via LMS). This might be of interest to some of you, still alpha software and I haven't personally tried it, find it at the squeeze forums.

[wappinghigh]

^ Yes nice summary of the pros/cons and problems with both systems.

 

What totally peaves me off is the way Sonos just appears to ignore it's customer base...

 

No 24 bit

No software controller

No audiophile player

Playing hard ball with various music services and not implementing them properly (ie only doing what suits Sonos)

 

Like these have been requests for years

 

I say "appears", because there is always two sides to a story.

 

They have their own agenda. And I suspect it's dumb things down...

 

But my suspicion now is that's because over the years they have realised multiroom via network is a crock of shite

 

They may well be proven right...

 

It is just not 100% reliable: so why push the boundaries and blow multimilions on R&D just for a few crazed audiofools?

 

At the end of the day, Ya gotta stay in business right?

 

I wish they would just give us all what we want. But frankly, now I see why they won't and don't necessarily blame them..

[realhifi]

 

 

 

 

But my suspicion now is that's because over the years they have realised multiroom via network is a crock of shite

 

They may well be proven right...

 

 

At the end of the day, Ya gotta stay in business right?

 

.

 

Just was at a great product demo by the new Sonos Midwest regional representative where they discussed old products, new implementation of the latest wireless router, figures on streaming services, latest Consumer Reports lists of wireless speakers, etc and it was pretty clear that they were doing a tad better than staying in business. Their approach to multi room, multi source music over a network just happens to be the best in the biz right now. Easy setup, perfect synch of libraries, perfect synch of rooms if you want them all to play the same thing, great collection of streaming services on board including their latest, Deezer (c d quality streaming), which they are now giving a free 30 day trial of to their customers, and an app that to many is a picture of ease of use, accessibility and control over all of a customers music.

 

Gee, sure hope they can stay in business.

[gnan]

Just was at a great product demo by the new Sonos Midwest regional representative where they discussed old products, new implementation of the latest wireless router, figures on streaming services, latest Consumer Reports lists of wireless speakers, etc and it was pretty clear that they were doing a tad better than staying in business. Their approach to multi room, multi source music over a network just happens to be the best in the biz right now. Easy setup, perfect synch of libraries, perfect synch of rooms if you want them all to play the same thing, great collection of streaming services on board including their latest, Deezer (c d quality streaming), which they are now giving a free 30 day trial of to their customers, and an app that to many is a picture of ease of use, accessibility and control over all of a customers music.

 

Gee, sure hope they can stay in business.

 

Hey Man, I think WAP dude mis typed and omitted that he was referring to hires multi room. Maybe i am wrong.

 

But If you are gonna take em to task at least get the marketing copy correct. Also pay attention we are Sonos owners.

 

The new wireless router (Boost) - isn't actually a router- it is a WAP aka range extender. Did the guy tell you they doubled the price of this compared to the product it replaced?

Sonos can't "sync" libraries. It takes all your music and presents it as one. Yes your perfectly tagged collection will be riddled with your kids mistagged crap. They don't support multi libraries - unlike some others.

 

"Picture of ease of use" - geez the new app caused a shit storm over at forums/ask.sonos.com. I bet you haven't used it.

 

One thing you did get right is they offer a lot of streaming services. You can play the same 15million crappy encoded songs (or pay the tidal/lossless premium) on 59 different streaming providers. The implementation of the services in the Sonos system is not very good in many cases because there are missing features of the native app in most cases.

 

Sonos is a billion dollar company, they are doing just fine without a hires player. They make a very good cheap plastic speakers that sound very good for their price. That said there is always room for improvement.

 

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk

[wappinghigh]

^ yep. Exactly.

[realhifi]

Hey Man, I think WAP dude mis typed and omitted that he was referring to hires multi room. Maybe i am wrong.

 

But If you are gonna take em to task at least get the marketing copy correct. Also pay attention we are Sonos owners.

 

The new wireless router (Boost) - isn't actually a router- it is a WAP aka range extender. Did the guy tell you they doubled the price of this compared to the product it replaced?

Sonos can't "sync" libraries. It takes all your music and presents it as one. Yes your perfectly tagged collection will be riddled with your kids mistagged crap. They don't support multi libraries - unlike some others.

 

"Picture of ease of use" - geez the new app caused a shit storm over at forums/ask.sonos.com. I bet you haven't used it.

 

One thing you did get right is they offer a lot of streaming services. You can play the same 15million crappy encoded songs (or pay the tidal/lossless premium) on 59 different streaming providers. The implementation of the services in the Sonos system is not very good in many cases because there are missing features of the native app in most cases.

 

Sonos is a billion dollar company, they are doing just fine without a hires player. They make a very good cheap plastic speakers that sound very good for their price. That said there is always room for improvement.

 

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk

 

Oops. Got a few things slightly wrong there did I?

 

The new product (which actually replaces the original Bridge, now discontinued) is now an option to the system as all the speakers can set up on your wireless network without the original Bridge component. That make it less expensive to start a Sonos system.

 

My mistake on the nomenclature of "synching" libraries. The Sonos will aggregate libraries into one IF you ask it to through the desktop software so if you don't want libraries on the system they don't just appear and add themselves. As far as multiple libraries, that would be nice, you're right. You mentioned others do this, could you steer me to those? I'm always ready to explore other options too!

 

The streaming, for me, works fine as I really don't use many at all and the two that I do seem to be fine except for not being able to make playlists on the fly. But, the streaming services will be changing and not sure how much that will even come into play in the future.

 

I didn't mean to make it seem like I think they are perfect. Far from it. Like ourself and thousands of other customers I hope to see them improve things as they move forward and excepting the issue of high res support, I believe they will.

 

And yes, I use Sonos daily. I'm one of the oddballs that didn't much get into a flap about the new iOS app. I've grown to actually like the search functionality and frankly, now that Apple's Remote App has dropped the ball and no longer gives you album art I find that its appeal has grown.

[realhifi]

 

 

 

But If you are gonna take em to task at least get the marketing copy correct. Also pay attention we are Sonos owners

 

Did not feel like I was taking him to task at all but merely pointing out that they (Sonos) are a work in progress like so many companies in the quickly shifting consumer electronics field and wanted to point out a few things out that seem to be positives about the company and their products.

[Cebolla]

As far as multiple libraries, that would be nice, you're right. You mentioned others do this, could you steer me to those? I'm always ready to explore other options too!

David,

 

I'm surprised you don't already know this, seeing as you've mentioned Marantz streamers, as well as some other UPnP/DLNA supporting devices in some other threads. Any UPnP/DLNA supporting streamer can independently access the media library created and maintained by any UPnP/DLNA AV media server application!

 

John

[realhifi]

David,

 

I'm surprised you don't already know this, seeing as you've mentioned Marantz streamers, as well as some other UPnP/DLNA supporting devices in some other threads. Any UPnP/DLNA supporting streamer can independently access the media library created and maintained by any UPnP/DLNA AV media server application!

 

John

 

Yes. Have used a number of products in that category and they certainly can access multiple libraries but none (as far as I know of) synch so perfectly room to room as the Sonos system can. I should have prefaced that question about other players with that caveat. The only others that I am aware are fairly expensive in comparison such as the Linn and Naim streamers. I was asking more about products in the range of the Sonos cost.

[gnan]

Oops. Got a few things slightly wrong there did I?

 

The new product (which actually replaces the original Bridge, now discontinued) is now an option to the system as all the speakers can set up on your wireless network without the original Bridge component. That make it less expensive to start a Sonos system.

 

....You mentioned others do this, could you steer me to those? I'm always ready to explore other options too!

 

The streaming, for me, works fine as I really don't use many at all and the two that I do seem to be fine except for not being able to make playlists.

 

And yes, I use Sonos daily. I'm one of the oddballs that didn't much get into a flap about the .

 

The bridge was included free with play products for several years and retailed for $49 depending on your location. There was always an option to set up your system without a bridge: plug any Sonos unit into your LAN. The wireless option doesn't replace the bridge as there was never a requirement to have a bridge in the first place.

 

LMS supports multi Libraries.

 

The issue with the streaming services is that the Sonos implementation of most leave a lot to be desired- kind of like how Sonos has ignored local library development for what 5+ years, now it lacks many features of a modern music player that are basic.

 

I don't mind the new app but it isn't best in business. Average at best. I prefer Sonopad. What does suck is they provide no facility to downgrade/change firmware/software, personally I find it outrageous.

[realhifi]

Here is an example of Sonos running in a multi room setup where it is controlled by an external app. Every room then has access to same stream or separate stream if desired.

[gnan]

Yes. Have used a number of products in that category and they certainly can access multiple libraries but none (as far as I know of) synch so perfectly room to room as the Sonos system can. I should have prefaced that question about other players with that caveat. The only others that I am aware are fairly expensive in comparison such as the Linn and Naim streamers. I was asking more about products in the range of the Sonos cost.

 

Qualcomm Allplay. Denon Heos. Squeezebox. Does Samsung?

[realhifi]

Qualcomm Allplay. Denon Heos. Squeezebox. Does Samsung?

 

Current products precludes me from recommending Squeezebox to customers.

Denon looks like it might have the goods but limited streaming service options yet.

Qualcomm? Have to look into that. Samsung has yet to show me anything reliable as far as their streaming so I am super reluctant to even mention them to clients. Their smart tvs just aren't very smart.

[gnan]

Current products precludes me from recommending Squeezebox to customers.

Denon looks like it might have the goods but limited streaming service options yet.

Qualcomm? Have to look into that. Samsung has yet to show me anything reliable as far as their streaming so I am super reluctant to even mention them to clients. Their smart tvs just aren't very smart.

 

Geez I didn't realize you are a member of the trade and we are posting in the context of your customers. My bad I'm new here. This is explains why your posts sound like they are copied from Sonos marketing copy. Lol

[jriver]

Very easy to do, Wap me old mate, especially as the two are often mentioned in the same ... you have to be quite an optimist if you've any hope of standard UPnP multiroom sync supporting the near future. Having said that, no technical reason why JRiver can't be the first to take it on themselves, given that JMC has a built-in UPnP server, renderer & control point.

When MC is running on the same equipment (the Id, for example), we should be able to solve that eventually.

[Cebolla]

Well, our friend WappingHigh can still hope - thanks for that JRiver!

 

Are you saying that multiroom sync under UPnP 1.0, as proposed by the UPnP AV Architecture:2 specification document (section 5.1 Synchronized playback), is technically feasible under JMC, so long as you're running it on the same hardware?

[wappinghigh]

Hang on what about Niam?? that is based on UPnP and they have released in the media that they can do multiroom in sync.. what's going on here??

 

https://www.naimaudio.com/news/17106/multiroom-update-now-available

[wappinghigh]

Well, our friend WappingHigh can still hope - thanks for that JRiver!

 

Are you saying that multiroom sync under UPnP 1.0, as proposed by the UPnP AV Architecture:2 specification document (section 5.1 Synchronized playback), is technically feasible under JMC, so long as you're running it on the same hardware?

 

Yes.. are you saying you will do this??