Poll: speakers parallel or inclined to the listener?

[richard kimber]

Does any of this apply to large electrostatic panels like the Quad 2805s that radiate sound in quite different ways from cones?

[4est]

Actually, the Quad is a dipole point source. There is a built in time delay that makes the waveform start in the center of the two middle panels while the upper and lower ones are for additional bass. Some of this does apply however, especially if you take the proper care of giving them as much rear distance as you can (5-6'+) and you absorb some/all of the back wave or at least bounce it in so that you can keep the rear wave delay time above the threshold where your mind attempts to integrate it as part of the primary wave.

Does any of this apply to large electrostatic panels like the Quad 2805s that radiate sound in quite different ways from cones?

[anwaypasible]

with the back radiating opposite to the front, the soundwaves are supposed to cancel on the sides.

if you toe the speakers in, that can let the rear wave escape some.

the more the rear soundwave is allowed to change compared to the front, the less cancellation occurs.

there's always going to be peaks and dips behind the speaker as the audio pours out mixing with the old soundwaves that haven't died yet.. therefore there is always going to be a less than perfect cancellation.

 

i think if you decide to mess around with different separation distance, as well as toe in, you would need to go one step further with putting the speaker closer or further away from the wall.

because the cancellation isn't perfect, there's going to be some bleeding of whatever is left after the cancellations.

how much or how loud is changing constantly depending on what you are listening to.

 

if you are going to use sound absorption panels behind the speakers, you might want to look into the resonant frequency of the room and tailor the sound absorption panels to match the fundamental size of the frequency to get the most absorption possible.

(that means changing the size of the gap between wedges at least)

but then again, you might want to factor in the resonant frequency of the space between the speaker as well as the resonant frequency of the room to really get maximum absorption.

you are trying to destroy a resonant frequency, therefore you need to know the size of the wave that needs destroyed.

the notches can be tailor made for a specific frequency.

if the full size of the wave isn't good, then you'll need the fundamental again.

 

i think it will clean up the bleed a lot, but if you tow them in you are going to need angled notches to catch the soundwaves before they smear across the back wall.

[richard kimber]

Right. I have mine 5ft from the rear wall; and that has some limited treatment to minimise reflection.

[davide256]

With maggie 1.7's having them parallel allows good image as long as you are on center axis and between 5-20 feet away.

Once you toe them in the sweet spot becomes becomes exactly that along center axis

[anwaypasible]

sound absorption panels are weird.

too flat and they can allow the soundwave to smear and then there is a reflection anyways.

too hard and they can actually become speakers themselves, because you do know the transfer of sound is not the soundwaves going through an object - but the soundwave forcing something to vibrate and thus the vibrating thing becomes a speaker?.

too soft and the material will flap in the wind allowing the soundwaves to hit the wall anyways if the thickness of the material is too thin.

if the material thickness isn't too thin, the softer the better.

the trick is finding something soft that doesn't spring back, because the spring will be vibration itself which at least raises the noise floor of the room if you aren't hearing the decibels.

 

**edit**

 

oh, you gotta think about the springing back because it might not be the type of springing motion you can see with the naked eye.

therefore if you clump it up with your hand and it kinda springs back, that doesn't mean it will spring from the slight pressure of a soundwave.

you'll know you've got it if you gotta comb your sound absorption panels because they've become compressed over time (might not be centimeters difference, but if the surface becomes compressed then you've basically got a hard glaze over good absorption material).

 

**edit again**

 

hell some people might say absorption panels that shed rather than compress because of how soft they are makes them the best.

for one, you don't have to comb them.

for two, they won't fill up with germs and bacteria since you are vacuuming them up and replacing them.

 

**yet another edit**

 

i wouldn't be impressed by absorption panels that shed a little bit while the rest of the panel is too hard, because that would be obnoxious.

i also would advise making certain the material isn't flammable or electrically conductive because you might ruin the transformers of those electrostatic speakers from the material dust coming into contact with the diaphragm or stator causing a change in resistance the transformer simply isn't designed to handle for a long period of time.

(you might really change the expected time of death from resistance changes)

 

probably better to find something that you need to brush, that way you can air out the room and even dust the speakers before using them after you brush.

 

seems like too much maintenance for me, but that would be the necessities of owning exotic speakers.

i'd be scared to use the spray air dusters too.

[徐中銳]

Stereophile's Rounding the Bend at Munich High End :

« "Positioning of the speakers is the key," Marantz brand ambassador Ken Ishiwata announced as he spoke of the new Fink Team loudspeaker ($40,000/pair). Designed by a team headed by consultant Karl-Heinz Fink, these will hopefully go into production. Paired with Marantz's new upsampling-to-DSD SA-10 CD/SACD player (€7000), which contains Marantz's new SACD transport, and the new PM-10 integrated amplifier (€8,000), the speakers delivered tremendous bass, supreme control, and somewhat dark colors that lacked ultimate transparency. Ishiwata played Peter Gabriel so loud in the big room that the sound waves were literally vibrating in my gut. Most exhibitors would have been terrified to do this, but the Fink team speakers sailed through without a hint of distortion. Very impressive indeed.

 

 

Colors were nicely saturated on a hi-res file of Joni Mitchell and Herbie Hancock's "Summertime," and images had weight. Which is how it should be. I shuddered when "Dance of the Tumblers" was put on, but I must admit that the tonal balance, while dark, was quite impressive. So was the SACD version of "O Holy Night," originally recorded for LP on another audiophile classic, Cantate Domine.

 

When I met up with Fink himself in the hallway, he explained that he used laser scanning and vibrometer measurement to determine where he needed to minimize resonances in his MDF-based cabinets. Those cabinets contain multiple sheets of MDF layered with polymer damping materials, as well as bracing and glue. "We try to fix distortions, but not with a sledgehammer," he said of his apparently bullet-proof design. »

 

Alright' date=' the [b']TAV Show 2013[/b] article as promised, translated from Vietnamese into English by me referring to Google and Bing online translators :

Present in the room listening were Marantz Premium 11 Series products to Boston Acoustics M340 loudspeakers already set-up soundstaged pretty good by the distributor—but Ken Ishiwata took off his coat and begins to reposition the speakers again. Although at the age of 66, Ken's assured adjusting of those heavy speakers was strong and swift as a young man's.

 

The first music test track was of solo piano, Ken began rotating the left speaker to toe-in at the central listener, he paces back and forth to hear it at the sides as well as facing the speaker. Then continuing the same process with the right speaker.

 

Next, Ken changed discs to vocal tracks, constantly tweaking the toe-in of the two speakers. The special thing is that throughout his procedure of setting-up he does not stand in the sweet spot to hear, instead stands off on the left corner of the room.

 

After Ken nodded approval at his set-up—we're amazed the speakers are almost shooting at each other in a toe-in angle we've not seen anywhere. His last test track was a traditional Japanese drum recording and the audio performance as newly set up by Ken can be described as a miracle—he helped to extend the soundstage, we can pinpoint the position of each drum ranging from front to rear that extends out of the room—the speakers disappear completely !

 

However, what we found most surprising was the system's sound being almost unchanged when moving from the seating position to either left or right and even for the corner of the room. Concept of sweet spot no longer exists, Boston M340 speakers at the hands this « wizard » become omni-directional speakers in just 20 minutes.

 

Try, if you like, translating to your own native language from original

 

[徐中銳]

@lucretius I've not forgot about my reply... In fact, I remember too much. And I've learnt it's best I take the time to simplify my thoughts, when matters aren't urgent

Look, following on from my previous Post, Ken too toe-in Tannoy... :

[firedog]

Toe in depends on the speaker. My manufacturer recommends it for my speakers.

[whoozwah]

My speakers are parallel. I'd rather it sound good in most places in my living room than great in only 1 spot. I like to share the experience of listening to music with people and that desire runs counter to a sweet spot type setup.

[semente]

My speakers are parallel. I'd rather it sound good in most places in my living room than great in only 1 spot. I like to share the experience of listening to music with people and that desire runs counter to a sweet spot type setup.

 

Have you tried extreme toe in, with axis crossing in front of listening spot?

Might produce better results both for wider audience as well as hot seat...

 

R

[wouterk]

Toe in depends on the speaker and the environment- try and listen! I use my ATC50 tower actives with a mild toe in.

[d_elm]

The large table between the speakers has a negative influence on the soundstage - I have experienced that. Point the speakers in front or behind your listening position according to the width of acceptable sound required.

[whoozwah]

Have you tried extreme toe in, with axis crossing in front of listening spot?

Might produce better results both for wider audience as well as hot seat...

 

R

 

nah. not really feasible with my living room. Maybe if I get a different place but currently it's pretty much where it's gonna stay. I'm not averse to the possibility of trying it in the future if it works better.

[dalethorn]

Have you tried extreme toe in, with axis crossing in front of listening spot? Might produce better results both for wider audience as well as hot seat... R

 

I rarely comment on speakers since I rarely get time to listen, but that said, getting the axes set the best way for best dispersion is half the battle in soundstage. The other half is room tuning. I think most people are amazed at the differences. Just opening a door, or moving rugs, curtains etc. - can make a big difference.

[徐中銳]

Toe in depends on the speaker and the environment- try and listen! I use my ATC50 tower actives with a mild toe in.

 

Incidentally, this is Ryuichi Sawada, Mr Sound-Quality-Control at Marantz Japan ; his own listening-room, speakers are inclined :

 

 

But giving a presentation at Hong Kong distributor, paralleled :

 

[video=youtube;C9st-sqxgz4]