Poll: speakers parallel or inclined to the listener?

[mayhem13]

If a speaker peaks some frequencies off-axis these will be greatly exagerated by walls, floor and ceiling reflexes.

The frequency balance will be extremely room and positioning dependent and imaging would be affected.

Not good, unless you like the sound of your listening room.

 

Besides, I believe that the dispersion pattern of the drivers' passband best overlaps when they're facing the listener (but I could be wrong).

 

R

 

Speakers with a radiation pattern of 90 degrees or more are ALL extremely room and placement dependant. That's 95 percent of the commercially available speaker systems

today.

 

........wherever or whatever the crossover point, except for true coaxial or coincident drivers, there will always be a lobe. Just how wide or narrow is dependant on the distance from the drivers physical and acoustic centers, the crossover slope, etc. Whether or not they're on or off the listening access is moot.

 

Yes, a speaker whose response is peaked off axis yet flat on access is flawed......but that's not what I was referring to, only the opposite where the speaker is peaked ON axis yet smooth off. That offers the listener more options in placement and tastes.

 

The best systems are those that exhibit some degree of constant directivity where the radiation patterns are equal through a wide spectrum whether it vertical or horizontal, preferably both. This can only be accomplished through the use of waveguides or horns or true dipole radiation. Again, there are very few examples of commercial designs built as such. Research has shown that most people (audiophiles included) actually prefer the additional reflected response in their listening.

 

We could go on and on here about acoustics in a closed 3d space, but unless you're prepared to concede that there's no best practice for speaker placement that applies to ALL speaker systems, there's not much point in continuing.

[mayhem13]

A significant variable to the SQ is also the ear height over the tweeter. For several speakers I prefer to be about 15 to 18 inches higher than the plane of the tweeters. It all depends on the off axis response of the tweeter. My listening chair is telescopic and on wheels

 

Well said......and quite true. But there's a catch here as well for those systems that are a traditional vertical alignment where now you, the listener is possibly 30 degrees or more off axis from the midwoofer. Depending on that driver's size and passband, being that far off the vertical axis can create quite a dip in the response.

 

It's important to understand that if we're talking flush mounted dome tweeters, the response of the driver is the same both vertically or horizontally minus small variances induced by the baffle.

 

Again, there's no set rule........and no free lunch when it comes to speakers.

[mayhem13]

From both my experience and info from Get Better Sound:

 

Toeing-in of speakers has two effects:

1- Speaker-specific effect: Change tonality

radiation patterns are narrower for high frequency drivers - so the more direct the position to your ears, the brighter the sound. Different speaker designs have different radiation patterns of course, and it also matters what distance you're from the speakers vs the speaker separation

 

2- Room effect: Direct vs reflected sound

As you tow in the speakers, given the radiation pattern you will get more energy directly from the speaker thus you involve the room less. By doing this you will loose some "depth" - but that's not depth that is in the recording per-se, although I understand you might like the effect.

 

Having said this, just as important is:

3- Where you sit in your room

4- Your room acoustics

5- Separation between speakers vs distance to your listening position

 

The most amazing thing to me was the effect of '5': The bigger the distance between speakers the broader the sound stage, but the "thinner" the sound. Piano will just not sound right if you separate the speakers too much.

 

Bottomline: it's a tradeof between all points above, you have to play with it until it works.

 

And yes, point 5 might have those results....for YOU and your system. As you pointed out earlier,that's another example of speaker related or dependant effect.

 

I'll share something with you that's almost always overlooked in commercial audio circles and that's how we treat our systems as if they were two dimensional or without a floor or ceiling, the two largest and MOST influential boundaries in our rooms.

[miguelito]

And yes, point 5 might have those results....for YOU and your system. As you pointed out earlier,that's another example of speaker related or dependant effect.

Absolutely. Very speaker dependent.

 

I'll share something with you that's almost always overlooked in commercial audio circles and that's how we treat our systems as if they were two dimensional or without a floor or ceiling, the two largest and MOST influential boundaries in our rooms.

Yes, of course. Most people are not able or willing to treat the ceiling. I've resorted to just treating the floor (long hair rug plus a fleece on the marble table when listening carefully). Additionally, I have horn speakers (Avantgarde) so that in itself makes the whole setup different from a dynamic speaker.

[Jud]

Possibly, but there's no better setup guide that I have found than Jim Smith's "Get Better Sound".

 

It's been highly recommended, and one of these days I'll surely wind up getting it.

 

The nice things about the Vandersteen manual are: (1) It comes with the speakers; (2) I have the impression it's unusual for a speaker manufacturer to devote this much of the manual to getting in-room setup right; (3) These are reasonably quick and easy tips; and (4) It's all there in 4 or 5 pages. Oh, and (5) It's also freely available online.

[mkrzych]

Regatding ear heigh vs tweeter what if HF module is hybrid like in my Dali Mentor 2's for instance?

[semente]

Speakers with a radiation pattern of 90 degrees or more are ALL extremely room and placement dependant. That's 95 percent of the commercially available speaker systems

today.

 

........wherever or whatever the crossover point, except for true coaxial or coincident drivers, there will always be a lobe. Just how wide or narrow is dependant on the distance from the drivers physical and acoustic centers, the crossover slope, etc. Whether or not they're on or off the listening access is moot.

 

Yes, a speaker whose response is peaked off axis yet flat on access is flawed......but that's not what I was referring to, only the opposite where the speaker is peaked ON axis yet smooth off. That offers the listener more options in placement and tastes.

 

The best systems are those that exhibit some degree of constant directivity where the radiation patterns are equal through a wide spectrum whether it vertical or horizontal, preferably both. This can only be accomplished through the use of waveguides or horns or true dipole radiation. Again, there are very few examples of commercial designs built as such. Research has shown that most people (audiophiles included) actually prefer the additional reflected response in their listening.

 

We could go on and on here about acoustics in a closed 3d space, but unless you're prepared to concede that there's no best practice for speaker placement that applies to ALL speaker systems, there's not much point in continuing.

 

We were talking about toe-in (of forward radiating box loudspeakers) and not positioning in general but I agree that there isn't a solution that applies to all of the aforementioned speaker types.

Such speakers should produce reasonably flat on-axis and smooth off-axis frequency response but seldom do.

 

Unfortunatelly few, if any, consumer audio speaker manufacturers provide any information regarding on-axis, let alone polar frequency response...

 

R

[miguelito]

It's been highly recommended, and one of these days I'll surely wind up getting it.

 

The nice things about the Vandersteen manual are: (1) It comes with the speakers; (2) I have the impression it's unusual for a speaker manufacturer to devote this much of the manual to getting in-room setup right; (3) These are reasonably quick and easy tips; and (4) It's all there in 4 or 5 pages. Oh, and (5) It's also freely available online.

Completely agree. I think it's the manufacturers duty, and frankly in their best interest, as your friends will listen to your system and the better it sounds, the more likely they will buy their speakers!

 

Avantgarde used to provide something like this (in fact, when the very same Jim Smith was the disctributor), but sadly this is no longer the case.

 

I will say that Get Better Sound is way more detailed and useful than the Vandersteen pamphlet...

[miguelito]

We could go on and on here about acoustics in a closed 3d space, but unless you're prepared to concede that there's no best practice for speaker placement that applies to ALL speaker systems, there's not much point in continuing.

I agree with this. There's no one-solution, and clearly different types of radiation patterns and different types of rooms, etc will call for different solutions in every and all aspects of the problem.

[miguelito]

Well folks this is probably the cheapest audio tweak you will find, and getting it right is huge. As for what's right for you it depends on your speakers, room, listening position, and your preference. Take your time and listen, this part can be fun and it's easy - a lot more fun than trying to hear the difference between good PCM and DSD, or cables for that matter, or a whole bunch of other things we debate on CA.

Trudat. And of enormously more impact.

[Jud]

Well folks this is probably the cheapest audio tweak you will find, and getting it right is huge. As for what's right for you it depends on your speakers, room, listening position, and your preference. Take your time and listen, this part can be fun and it's easy - a lot more fun than trying to hear the difference between good PCM and DSD, or cables for that matter, or a whole bunch of other things we debate on CA.

 

For me it's all good, all fun and all helpful. Nothing should be excluded that is potentially beneficial simply because another change may have a larger effect or provide better value.

 

On the other hand - yes, it's a good idea to get the big stuff right before moving on to other tweaks.

 

Back to our regularly scheduled thread....

[miguelito]

For me it's all good, all fun and all helpful. Nothing should be excluded that is potentially beneficial simply because another change may have a larger effect or provide better value.

 

On the other hand - yes, it's a good idea to get the big stuff right before moving on to other tweaks.

 

Back to our regularly scheduled thread....

And at times you will find that some tweak will drive you back to change some other thing. What is important is to have a good guideline on how to fix specific problems - which I think is really the hard part of it all. For example, if your mid-bass region is recessed (you can't quite discern well the plucking of a bass) - what do you do about it? It can be tricky and almost surely it is something related to your speaker setup: room modes, crossover point, crossover phase, etc etc etc... Fun but hard.

[Jabs1542]

Something to consider, I have an XTZ Room Analyzer (Room Analyzer). They start at around $230. When I received my speakers Legacy delivered and installed them for me (they weigh close to 300 pound each) and they were using an XTZ Room Analyzer to set everything up. I bought the pro unit (a whopping $350) and have used it quite a bit, also for about a dozen of my friends, it works great.

 

BTW - I also learned a lesson about voicing speakers, surprisingly you do not want a pure flat 20-20k curve.

[mayhem13]

Regatding ear heigh vs tweeter what if HF module is hybrid like in my Dali Mentor 2's for instance?

 

Your Dali's use both a 1" dome and a super tweeter of the ribbon type. Due to the very high crossover point to the ribbon, they exhibit even horizontal dispersion from 3.5khz on up......BUT ribbons have very narrow vertical dispersion so the ceiling and floor doesnt get illuminated with reflected HF energy and bounce back at the listener with energy.

 

They need to be listened to with the vertical axis between the ribbon and the dome. The dome's directivity match is poor to the ribbon in the vertical. There will be a very deep null at the crossover point. Horizontal toe in will be dependant on the distance to the side walls and your personal preference. I suggest experimenting only in the horizontal.....the vertical needs to fixed.

 

The really serious design flaw of the Dali Mentor 2 is the 6.5" mid driver playing all the way to 3.4khz. It's already beaming from 2.2khz and there's no directivity match to any other driver in the system. With a fixed vertical position dictated by the poor vertical response of the ribbon, the mid is now significantly off axis and content from 2.2khz up to nearly 4hz is recessed significantly. It's not a flavor i could live with daily, but probobly works on occasion as a flavor of the month.

 

So in summary, fix the vertical window to ear height level with the space between the dome and the ribbon, experiment with toe in to taste and enjoy! Get two subwoofers if you dont have em already.

[mayhem13]

It's been highly recommended, and one of these days I'll surely wind up getting it.

 

The nice things about the Vandersteen manual are: (1) It comes with the speakers; (2) I have the impression it's unusual for a speaker manufacturer to devote this much of the manual to getting in-room setup right; (3) These are reasonably quick and easy tips; and (4) It's all there in 4 or 5 pages. Oh, and (5) It's also freely available online.

 

You wear that Vandersteen badge like a pimp's felt fedora!.......how retro!

[mkrzych]

Your Dali's use both a 1" dome and a super tweeter of the ribbon type. Due to the very high crossover point to the ribbon, they exhibit even horizontal dispersion from 3.5khz on up......BUT ribbons have very narrow vertical dispersion so the ceiling and floor doesnt get illuminated with reflected HF energy and bounce back at the listener with energy.

 

They need to be listened to with the vertical axis between the ribbon and the dome. The dome's directivity match is poor to the ribbon in the vertical. There will be a very deep null at the crossover point. Horizontal toe in will be dependant on the distance to the side walls and your personal preference. I suggest experimenting only in the horizontal.....the vertical needs to fixed.

 

The really serious design flaw of the Dali Mentor 2 is the 6.5" mid driver playing all the way to 3.4khz. It's already beaming from 2.2khz and there's no directivity match to any other driver in the system. With a fixed vertical position dictated by the poor vertical response of the ribbon, the mid is now significantly off axis and content from 2.2khz up to nearly 4hz is recessed significantly. It's not a flavor i could live with daily, but probobly works on occasion as a flavor of the month.

 

So in summary, fix the vertical window to ear height level with the space between the dome and the ribbon, experiment with toe in to taste and enjoy! Get two subwoofers if you dont have em already.

 

This is all very valuable information, how do you know it? BTW, I know that Dali design with hybrid HF module and its frequency response is not in favor by audio engineers, but to my ears it sound quite amazing. Do you think that's bad design? When I adjust my butt position little bit higher (need to unscrew my spikes in the future) on certain records the sound in amazingly 3D and speakers disappear instantly. So maybe in that case my ears level is on the mid point between the dome and ribbon whistles. I toed-in them a bit, because my room does not allow them to be in the same distance from both side walls unfortunately. They're around 2.8m from each other and my couch it in the similar distance from each speaker. One solution I have found when I have time for critical listening is to put the dining chair in a back position with the blanket on the longer side to the wall, to make both side walls in "similar" distance. It helps a bit ;-)

 

I don't like to use subs on my setup, because I believe that they can distort the sound and make it unnatural and in case of bass level I am pretty satisfied.

[Boris75]

FWIW.....Magico suggests, once the speakers have been "voiced" into the room for optimal bass and midrange, (small movements into the room listening for bass expression and small movements from the side wall for image) that the speaker form an isosceles triangle with the listener. Further specifying and underlining that the listener be exactly equidistant between the two.

WDW

 

This is also the very ITU standard. So there is at least one high-end speaker manufacturer who complies with the international standard.

[mayhem13]

This is also the very ITU standard. So there is at least one high-end speaker manufacturer who complies with the international standard.

 

There simply can't or shouldn't be any standard as there is no standard listening space other than outdoors with a fixed ground plane. Furthermore, excluding identical speaker systems, no two speakers are alike in their directivity, power or polar response.

[Jud]

You wear that Vandersteen badge like a pimp's felt fedora!.......how retro!

 

I've actually tried those on - they don't look bad.

[miguelito]

I've actually tried those on - they don't look bad.

LOL! Where's the "Like" button when you need it?

[Jabs1542]

I've actually tried those on - they don't look bad.

 

Would swapping out feathers be sort of like tube rolling?

[Allan F]

This is also the very ITU standard. So there is at least one high-end speaker manufacturer who complies with the international standard.

 

George Cardas of Cardas Audio has published a Room Setup and Speaker Setup Guide that's available online: Cardas Room Setup Guide

[mayhem13]

I

This is all very valuable information, how do you know it? BTW, I know that Dali design with hybrid HF module and its frequency response is not in favor by audio engineers, but to my ears it sound quite amazing. Do you think that's bad design? When I adjust my butt position little bit higher (need to unscrew my spikes in the future) on certain records the sound in amazingly 3D and speakers disappear instantly. So maybe in that case my ears level is on the mid point between the dome and ribbon whistles. I toed-in them a bit, because my room does not allow them to be in the same distance from both side walls unfortunately. They're around 2.8m from each other and my couch it in the similar distance from each speaker. One solution I have found when I have time for critical listening is to put the dining chair in a back position with the blanket on the longer side to the wall, to make both side walls in "similar" distance. It helps a bit ;-)

 

I don't like to use subs on my setup, because I believe that they can distort the sound and make it unnatural and in case of bass level I am pretty satisfied.

 

There are a few physical knows when dealing with speaker drivers. One for instance are ribbon,......they ALL have excellent horizontal dispersion and directivity and VERY narrow vertical. It's fixed by their construction. Round drivers radiate evenly in all directions but their on axis radiation is dictated by they're usable surface area and diameter in relation to the speed of sound and the 1/4 wavelengths of the frequencies within their passband.

 

Undertstanding these givens and knowing the specs of the speaker such as driver type, size and crossover points and slopes can give you a great amount of insight of what to expect when listening.

 

Ribbons are IMO the ultimate in home frequency reproduction. Their light membranes and powerful magnet structure allow for the fastest rise times and the most accurate return to rest..........BUT.........they don't play down low in frequency. Typically 3khz with a steep slope is a practical limit before distortion comes on.......heavily. They're NOT a good device for a two way speaker......such requires too wide a passband From a midwoofer. Dali knows this full well, but insted decided to bridge the gap with a 1" dome.......not a wise design choice evident by the sheer lack of similiar alignments in the commercial speaker selections available today. The smarter move would have been a 4" midrange driver in between.

[wgscott]

I did an experiment a few minutes ago with toe-in and Roger Waters' "Perfect Sense" from his live album, with the Q-sound dubbed-in voice of Hal (from 2001). It is supposed to be positioned about 90 degrees to the left. It doesn't work in my living room unless the speakers are toed in at least to the extent that they beam directly to the listening position. Any less toe-in and it destroys the Q-sound illusion. Because of the construction of the room, I would prefer not to toe them in, but it comes at a cost in my case.

[Allan F]

Any less toe-in and it destroys the Q-sound illusion. Because of the construction of the room, I would prefer not to toe them in, but it comes at a cost in my case.

 

What is it about the construction of the room that you would otherwise prefer not to toe them in?